PCM options

[Kiddart1]

I am in the works doing a 6.4 into my 72 demon. I have a 5.7 in my dart sport and run the MSgold box.

my question is what you guys are running and why. what benefits caused the choice you made.
i think there are only 3 options but i want this to be as seamless as possible.

 

[mopar65]

Sorry to go off track. But how do you like the gold box? I just bought a used one with harness for $650. Going to use it on my stroked 6.1 to control spark only. HHP I think it was has came out with a system thst also set up for spark only. It's around $850 I think . But to me it looks like the EFI microsqurt.

 

[Map63Vette]

I've got an MS3X running my 5.7 in my 67 Dart currently.

For the long story, I originally swapped the engine into the car with a carb and an MSD box because I was in college and didn't have the money to buy a nice fuel tank with a built in pump (this was 10+ years ago). I also bought the engine with zero electronics other than the sensors that were still mounted, so no harness or PCM to start with. Sold the factory intake to a guy and was just chatting about possibly going back to EFI some day with him when he picked it up and he mentioned he knew someone taking an MS setup off a 340. Called the guy and worked out a screaming deal for a "fuel inject a small block Mopar in a box" kit. Ended up with a 4bbl throttle body, intake, fuel rails, injectors, pump, O2 sensor and controller, MS2, wiring, relay box, etc. Sold off all the stuff I didn't need for the Hemi and think it cost me $200 in the long run for a full MS2 setup. I kept the MSD and ran the MS as a fuel only setup for several years until I decided I wanted to have all the tuning in one place and better control of the ignition. Got the parts for Christmas to upgrade to an MS3X and have really enjoyed the extra functionality it gave me.

Short version of the story is I love tinkering and the open source nature of the Megasquirt line. Pretty much everything I did on the car I did in steps as I learned how it all worked. Began with a fuel only EFI system running off the tach signal from the MSD to a near OEM style setup with table switching, sequential injection, wideband O2 feedback, closed loop idle control, traction control, A/C control (once I actually put A/C in the car), alternator control, several extra gauges for datalogging, etc. Pretty much if I want to do something with the car, there is a way to do it with the MS if I want to.

I was eyeing the Megasquirt system from the start and just happened to find a great deal on one, but I also had a lot less options back when I did the swap. The other option I was looking at back then was a FAST system. They were better known for their TBI kits, but they actually sold a kit that would connect to a factory manifold and 8 injectors instead of their throttle body setup. I almost never saw anyone use or even mention that kit, but it seemed like a nice setup. I think the Holley kits have largely taken over that market though, and are incredibly feature rich nowadays from what I can tell. I think you pay a premium for that though. With the MS I could add features as I went and spread the cost a little more than one big initial hit. I'm guessing a factory PCM would probably give you some of the nicest driveability, but at the cost of having limited modification potential. I know you can tune them, but they are ultimately still a pretty fixed system. I can run an MS as a MAF setup, speed density, alpha-n, etc. at the flip of a setting, so it would adapt to pretty much any mod you'd ever want to do with the car. You don't have to play games and trick the computer into thinking it's doing one thing when you want it to do another (like adding boost to a computer that isn't built for it). The MS lineup has gotten way more professional in the later years as well with nice enclosures and real sealed connectors, but I think they are also going up in price to match, so maybe not as much of a deal as they used to be. I guess that all depends on how much you're willing to tinker though. I've debated more than once about ripping my setup out and moving to one of the modern enclosed units that could mount in the engine bay to clean up my wiring, but I don't think the cost justifies it for me yet.

 

[DionR]

I am going with an NGC. I want CC at some point and at the time I was deciding it seemed like the best option was the OEM controller. I don't think any of the aftermarket controllers can do CC, but there are now CC DBW kits that can control the throttle. The later GPEC2A controller has some headaches with the start signal so I decided to just stick to the earlier NGC controller.

I think another advantage to the MS stuff is the option to do traction control and (I think) no lift shifts. The Terminator X can't do either (I don't think).

My plans have expanded some since I was going to need a speed signal for CC so I am planning to do a 4 channel ABS setup. Not sure if I will try and do traction/stability control though. Either way, the road is still long and harrowing to get to that point.

But I will be paying for tuning at some point, so there is that. And I don't plan for a big engine build at this point either.

 

[Map63Vette]

I am going with an NGC. I want CC at some point and at the time I was deciding it seemed like the best option was the OEM controller. I don't think any of the aftermarket controllers can do CC, but there are now CC DBW kits that can control the throttle. The later GPEC2A controller has some headaches with the start signal so I decided to just stick to the earlier NGC controller.

I think another advantage to the MS stuff is the option to do traction control and (I think) no lift shifts. The Terminator X can't do either (I don't think).

My plans have expanded some since I was going to need a speed signal for CC so I am planning to do a 4 channel ABS setup. Not sure if I will try and do traction/stability control though. Either way, the road is still long and harrowing to get to that point.

But I will be paying for tuning at some point, so there is that. And I don't plan for a big engine build at this point either.

I know the MS now has "unofficial" DBW support. By that I mean that it technically offers it, but has lots of disclaimers everywhere saying it's experimental and not to be used as a primary control. That doesn't fix the CC issue though. I have been trying to add CC to my car via my own programming and tinkering for a while now, but have yet to come up with a satisfactory solution. I have a carb style throttle body though, so mechanical control makes that a little easier to develop at home (actually it would probably be easier to control a DBW throttle body if I could figure out how to control it, adding a servo to pull the throttle linkage has been one of the bigger headaches). I just can't come up with a control system that works well with my car yet. I put one on my old 71 Vette back in college for a project and it actually worked okay despite being very rudimentary in coding (basically if it was slower than set speed, add one "step" of throttle and check again in a second or something like that, if it was slow do the opposite). Had a lot of oscillation getting to the set speed, but held it okay once it was there. It's an automatic with less horsepower though, so the transmission "soaked up" a lot of the throttle response. I might go after it again one of these days, but I need to have more robust code with failsafes in it.

And yes, the MS can do no lift shift. I have it set up on my car with "launch control" as well (basically just a two step, nothing fancy) via a potentiometer on the clutch. The pot lets me tune the release point better than a physical switch. And I don't think the MS really has any stability control yet either. I know they make full aftermarket systems for that, but I think you need an ABS pump to get there.

 

[Kiddart1]

Mopar65, we like the gold box now that we have tinkered with it more and more. at first it was very overwhelming. the car really reacts to changes good or bad directions. its set up for drag racing but can also be set to cruise the streets with a few keystrokes. my son is learning all this and i am getting what i can while he is learning.
next we are adding a flex fuel sensor to run E-85 so that will be a big plus.

i was on the EFI source website today and noticed they have a MS3 Lite for the gen 3 early model and late model. it seems to have a lot of the big features of the MS3 Gold just smaller package. they are also offering an efi dash (5", 7" or 10") that can be used with either Gold or lite boxes.

i think i got all the info i need but now need to see exactly what features i can live without. Cruise control is a not an option, or i should say don't want it on my demon. traction control might be nice but not a deal breaker. here are the links and now that i can get a digital dash as a package i might go this direction.

MS3 Gold Lite for G3 Hemi Plug and Play System – EFI Source

https://www.efisource.com/wp/shop/nexgenefi-pro-edition-slim-digital-display/


Map63Vett, my first rendition was with the Fast TB efi and the MSD hemi6 box that was stupid simple but then I wanted everything in one control box so i went with the MS3 Gold.

if there are any other ideas let me hear them.

 

[mopar65]

Mopar65, we like the gold box now that we have tinkered with it more and more. at first it was very overwhelming. the car really reacts to changes good or bad directions. its set up for drag racing but can also be set to cruise the streets with a few keystrokes. my son is learning all this and i am getting what i can while he is learning.
next we are adding a flex fuel sensor to run E-85 so that will be a big plus.

i was on the EFI source website today and noticed they have a MS3 Lite for the gen 3 early model and late model. it seems to have a lot of the big features of the MS3 Gold just smaller package. they are also offering an efi dash (5", 7" or 10") that can be used with either Gold or lite boxes.

i think i got all the info i need but now need to see exactly what features i can live without. Cruise control is a not an option, or i should say don't want it on my demon. traction control might be nice but not a deal breaker. here are the links and now that i can get a digital dash as a package i might go this direction.

MS3 Gold Lite for G3 Hemi Plug and Play System – EFI Source

NexGenEFI Pro Edition Slim Digital Display – EFI Source


Map63Vett, my first rendition was with the Fast TB efi and the MSD hemi6 box that was stupid simple but then I wanted everything in one control box so i went with the MS3 Gold.

if there are any other ideas let me hear them.

Thanks for the info..MS3 said I could use the gold box to control spark only
I even bought the wiring harness for just the coils. Hooking it up looks easy. Adding on the tuning settings is what's got me worried . Lol I have never used something like it. Guess i am going to have to email MS3 and ask them. Mine is going to be race only. I was going to buy the MSD Hemi 6 but with the wiring harness it's around $1100. Also I was wrong its MMX that is selling a spark only set up for the gen3 hemi. Just have to hook up 3 wires and your engine is running
But it looks like a MS3 set up to me
It even uses the Tuner studio program. But looks like a nice set up

Gen3 HEMI Carburetor Ignition Control System by MMX and EFI Source

Gen3 HEMI Carburetor Ignition Control System by MMX and EFI Source

www.modernmusclextreme.com

 

[Kiddart1]

If you ask around some will send you screen shots of tunes that you can add into your graphs for to start on a tune and go from there. I might even be able to have my son send you the base tune we have in the dart for everyday driving, and you can tweak from there. when you are ready for that send me a PM off to the side and we can get that for you.

 

[racerjoe]

I am in the works doing a 6.4 into my 72 demon. I have a 5.7 in my dart sport and run the MSgold box.

my question is what you guys are running and why. what benefits caused the choice you made.
i think there are only 3 options but i want this to be as seamless as possible.

I'm running the MS3X on a 5.7 right now. I had it previously running my 408 LA. Since I made the harness and bulkhead connector for the 408, I simply made the harness and pinout to match. A simple config change and it fired right up. I will admit the MS was a big learning curve for me since I hadn't messed with any EFI at that point. I've considered moving over to the Terminator X, but honestly, there's no point. I feel like the Terminator is a good setup for guys that aren't familiar with EFI and don't need a bunch of extra I/O. In order to match the I/O of the MS3X on a Holley system, you would need to go with the Dominator or get a CAN expansion module. If money is no concern, go with the Dominator. Overall, I'm happy with the MS3X, but I want even more analog inputs and have considered getting a microsquirt to use as a CAN I/O extender.

 

[Map63Vette]

I'm running the MS3X on a 5.7 right now. I had it previously running my 408 LA. Since I made the harness and bulkhead connector for the 408, I simply made the harness and pinout to match. A simple config change and it fired right up. I will admit the MS was a big learning curve for me since I hadn't messed with any EFI at that point. I've considered moving over to the Terminator X, but honestly, there's no point. I feel like the Terminator is a good setup for guys that aren't familiar with EFI and don't need a bunch of extra I/O. In order to match the I/O of the MS3X on a Holley system, you would need to go with the Dominator or get a CAN expansion module. If money is no concern, go with the Dominator. Overall, I'm happy with the MS3X, but I want even more analog inputs and have considered getting a microsquirt to use as a CAN I/O extender.

Depending on how handy you are with electronics and code, you could pretty easily build your own. I have an Arduino currently running a small column mounted display and have gotten fairly familiar with how the MS CAN works. I have debated using some of the extra inputs on it (or buying a whole separate one) to get extra inputs into my MS. The biggest idea I've had for a while now but haven't gone through on is building a dedicated "sensor unit" that I could mount in the engine bay and wire all the sensors to. Then I would just have the CAN lines to pass through the firewall instead of all the individual sensor wires. I still have a ton coming back out to run sequential injection and the coils, but it could reduce my pin counts quite a bit. Right now I have one ~20 something pin bulkhead that is just sensors and a second one for the injectors and coils. The MS is a little limited on CAN channels though, and I'm not sure if it would play super nice with that idea or not.

But an Arduino Nano and a CAN bridge of some variety would likely only run you $20-25 and would give you something like 5 analog inputs, 10 digital inputs, and the option to use some of those as outputs instead if you wanted. I'm currently emulating part of the JB Perf board to send GPS and RTC data from my Raspberry Pi back to the MS for logging.

 

[racerjoe]

Depending on how handy you are with electronics and code, you could pretty easily build your own. I have an Arduino currently running a small column mounted display and have gotten fairly familiar with how the MS CAN works. I have debated using some of the extra inputs on it (or buying a whole separate one) to get extra inputs into my MS. The biggest idea I've had for a while now but haven't gone through on is building a dedicated "sensor unit" that I could mount in the engine bay and wire all the sensors to. Then I would just have the CAN lines to pass through the firewall instead of all the individual sensor wires. I still have a ton coming back out to run sequential injection and the coils, but it could reduce my pin counts quite a bit. Right now I have one ~20 something pin bulkhead that is just sensors and a second one for the injectors and coils. The MS is a little limited on CAN channels though, and I'm not sure if it would play super nice with that idea or not.

But an Arduino Nano and a CAN bridge of some variety would likely only run you $20-25 and would give you something like 5 analog inputs, 10 digital inputs, and the option to use some of those as outputs instead if you wanted. I'm currently emulating part of the JB Perf board to send GPS and RTC data from my Raspberry Pi back to the MS for logging.

My MS3X was the kit one and I built it. I'm not sure my eyes would allow that now... lol. I've never looked into the arduino products, but I will now. I'd love to have more engine data such as oil temp, and my second O2, but what I really want is my 3 axis G meter (3 inputs). I found one from an electronics supplier for like $20 and a small plastic box for it. I'd just mount it in the box and fill with some potting compound to make sure its solid. I'm sure its the same thing all the big names offer in a fancy box and charge hundreds.
One thing I like about the Holley product is their I/O can be assigned to either input or output. And, I think analog/digital. Not sure how accurate that part is.

 

[Map63Vette]

My MS3X was the kit one and I built it. I'm not sure my eyes would allow that now... lol. I've never looked into the arduino products, but I will now. I'd love to have more engine data such as oil temp, and my second O2, but what I really want is my 3 axis G meter (3 inputs). I found one from an electronics supplier for like $20 and a small plastic box for it. I'd just mount it in the box and fill with some potting compound to make sure its solid. I'm sure its the same thing all the big names offer in a fancy box and charge hundreds.
One thing I like about the Holley product is their I/O can be assigned to either input or output. And, I think analog/digital. Not sure how accurate that part is.

I've had a similar thought on an accelerometer for a while now as well. They have some super cheap like, $5 ones designed for the Raspberry Pi or Arduino that I've looked at just to play with. Should be pretty easy to feed that back into the MS. I started on a Pi because I just had one in the car for display stuff, but I like the Arduinos because they don't actually run operating systems, so they don't really have bootup time. They are really just microcontrollers, not full fledged computers. That comes with its own limitations, but if you are just wanting to run some code to talk to a sensor and send that data somewhere else, they work really nicely. I tried to offload my speedometer control to a Pi Pico (essentially the same as an Arduino in many respects) because I was tired of waiting for my Pi to boot before my gauge would start working. It ran fine for a while, but something electronic failed and I think shorted on it. The Arduino Nano was even smaller than the Pi Pico, though it costs a bit more. The biggest advantage with the Arduino I got is that it will run of 12V directly, so I can wire it straight to the car for power without having to put another 5V converter in there somewhere.

I've debated going real crazy and essentially building a BCM for my car for the fun of it, but haven't gotten to that point yet. I would really like to add remote power locks since you can't lock the door till it's shut, so the car is just asking for it. I've also been looking at getting universal bluetooth TPMS sensors and piping that data into my little column display (and maybe to the MS via CAN as it could be interesting to log). If I did end up being silly and decide to try to develop my own automatic climate control (need to actually install A/C first...), that would be one more thing it could run. I need to just sit down some day and write out all the inputs and outputs I'm interested in to see what makes sense. Would be a fun side project and could maybe condense some of my wiring, but in reality it would probably just make more of a mess, lol.

 

[racerjoe]

I've had a similar thought on an accelerometer for a while now as well. They have some super cheap like, $5 ones designed for the Raspberry Pi or Arduino that I've looked at just to play with. Should be pretty easy to feed that back into the MS. I started on a Pi because I just had one in the car for display stuff, but I like the Arduinos because they don't actually run operating systems, so they don't really have bootup time. They are really just microcontrollers, not full fledged computers. That comes with its own limitations, but if you are just wanting to run some code to talk to a sensor and send that data somewhere else, they work really nicely. I tried to offload my speedometer control to a Pi Pico (essentially the same as an Arduino in many respects) because I was tired of waiting for my Pi to boot before my gauge would start working. It ran fine for a while, but something electronic failed and I think shorted on it. The Arduino Nano was even smaller than the Pi Pico, though it costs a bit more. The biggest advantage with the Arduino I got is that it will run of 12V directly, so I can wire it straight to the car for power without having to put another 5V converter in there somewhere.

I've debated going real crazy and essentially building a BCM for my car for the fun of it, but haven't gotten to that point yet. I would really like to add remote power locks since you can't lock the door till it's shut, so the car is just asking for it. I've also been looking at getting universal bluetooth TPMS sensors and piping that data into my little column display (and maybe to the MS via CAN as it could be interesting to log). If I did end up being silly and decide to try to develop my own automatic climate control (need to actually install A/C first...), that would be one more thing it could run. I need to just sit down some day and write out all the inputs and outputs I'm interested in to see what makes sense. Would be a fun side project and could maybe condense some of my wiring, but in reality it would probably just make more of a mess, lol.

It's a shame the CAN bus the MS uses isn't the same as J1939 CAN. Axiomatic makes some neat products for the J1939 platform. I used some in a past career to collect diesel engine data to put onto a display screen.

 

[Map63Vette]

It's a shame the CAN bus the MS uses isn't the same as J1939 CAN. Axiomatic makes some neat products for the J1939 platform. I used some in a past career to collect diesel engine data to put onto a display screen.

Lol, I actually did the same. I had one of their inclinometer/gyroscope sensors I was hoping to use for something, but never really got the chance to try it out. We use them at my new job as well for tilt sensors I think. I think they actually have some other CAN versions of their products as well, but pretty sure they still wouldn't play nice.

You have got a couple options to make that work though. An Arduino could easily "translate" from one CAN protocol to the other, you'd just need two dedicated CAN bridges. That's adding more components to the system though, which maybe defeats the purpose.

I'm still debating if I ever put EPS in my car whether to try mixing protocols on the same bus. It's probably a huge no-no, but I might give it a shot just to see what happens. I have filters set up on my Pi and Arduino to ignore messages not addressed to them. I would hope the MS has something similar built into it, but hard to say. I need to write out the messages and see how they compare from a binary standpoint. Would be safer to just add another bus, but I think the Nano only has one SPI port, so it can't connect to two CAN transceivers unless I find one that communicates via a different connection. Might make more sense to just buy a bigger Arduino at that point and go with my BCM idea.