That makes sense. I was assuming that the lock would be the same both directions.
Please critique my home front-end alignment method
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Inertia
Well-Known Member
You can also swap the two front tires to narrow down a radial tire pull. If you drive it after your alignment and it does not pull and it feels stable and doesn't wander, I would call it good. There's really no need to measure caster in that instance, other than just to know where it is. If it drives good, you did good. I measure static caster at the spindle. It works for me.
Not try to question you in any way. I'm just curious why knowing the number is so important. I don't see how I'd be able to achieve any more caster with the components I currently have even if I knew I was low. Although I guess it's possible to end up with more than I think I have. What would the drawback be of too much? I know steering effort increases which I'd probably welcome with the power steering. Is their any detriment to the suspension components if it caster is wrong?
I doubt you have too much BUT... the higher the caster is, the more they like to wander at slow speeds. Ever rode a long forked bike? As to the number, its like any other specification on the car. If i can know it I want to know it. Not the end of the world for sure.
Thanks guys, this is all good info to have. It looks like I'll proceed as I have been, knowing I may have to do some tweaking once I can drive the car. When I swapped the somewhat worn factory suspension from the donor car years ago, I set the back cams all the way in and the fronts all the way out, set the camber with a framing square and strung the car for toe. I then did as you're saying and drove the car and made a few tweaks until it had no pull. My wife, who's used to driving later model cars, was surprised how well the car tracked and rode. Hopefully I'll have just as good of luck this time around.
Sounds like you have a really good handle on what's going on. I don't think you'll have a problem.
Inertia
Well-Known Member
Then just watch your tires for wear .
Yes, probably like a lot of you guys cars, the tires will probably time out before I could ever drive it enough to wear them out anyway.
That's more very good info. I wasn't really considering anything but highway speeds as far as wandering was concerned. Now you're making me want to know the caster numbers. Lol
Just another excuse to buy more tools, I guess.
67Dart273
Well-Known Member
Of course you do. You have a means of measuring a right angle, don't you? Half of that is 45 and half of that is 22 1/2* which is close enough.
67Dart273
Well-Known Member
Are you paying attention? You don't need to buy anything. If you have a means of accurately measuring camber, then you can measure caster.
I don't that you will get too much, or even enough too much to cause wandering. Most Mopars suffer from not enough with radial tires, and then you run into self centering issues, especially with power steering.
I don't that you will get too much, or even enough too much to cause wandering. Most Mopars suffer from not enough with radial tires, and then you run into self centering issues, especially with power steering.
Inertia
Well-Known Member
I have never been able to get +3* caster outta the offset bushings, so no worries.
+ Caster gives directional stability .
- Caster gives a wobble like a shopping buggy front wheel. (thnx RRR)
Caster is not generally considered a tire wearing angle .
+ Caster gives directional stability .
- Caster gives a wobble like a shopping buggy front wheel. (thnx RRR)
Caster is not generally considered a tire wearing angle .
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I guess I kind of misspoke. I didn't take the time to make or buy anything that would give me an easily repeatable way of turning 20 degrees which is why I was using the steering stops. Although it sounds like marks on the garage floor could work very well. I also think I might trust a bubble level type device more than my cheap digital angle gage. Sort of like stringing the car for toe. I looked at a relatively cheap laser to possibly use and the accuracy was only like +- 1/8" in 20 feet. I know I can get closer than that using a string.
Ironracer
Gearhead
I used CrackedBacks toe method. Stacking Straight dimensional lumber against the outer side of tires, and measured em.... car tracks Perfect!
Ironracer
Gearhead
BillGrissom
Well-Known Member
I did similar for UCA, using Moog offset bushings to move fwd pivot as far out as possible, and aft pivot as far inward as possible. You are trying to move the upper ball joint as far aft as possible to realize more caster, as needed for radial tires. That is where a line thru the two ball-joints projects to the asphalt, in front of the tire patch (tire flexes backwards while driving), i.e. the "shopping-cart effect" so the tires tend to follow vehicle motion. 67Dart273 said, "easy to measure caster" with no special tools, but I don't know how, though don't worry since just setting max possible for factory UCA's. I read the sheet for the special DECO bubble-level tool, which would work, but little value for me since I just go for max caster. I disagree with their statement that toe-in causes tire scuff "when cornering". It causes excessive tire wear when driving straight too, especially on the inner tread, like the pigeon-toed "snow plow" used to brake when snow skiing.
With settings above, you have no adjustment left for camber, which is how much the top of the tire leans in (negative camber). To get more adjustment, you need after-market tubular UCA's with adjustable Heim joints. I accept whatever camber results since the factory spec'd slight positive camber, which looks strange today (tops of tires leaning outward). That might have been specific to bias tires. You see tuners today with the tires leaning greatly inward (negative), some even using special rounded tires like a motorcycle to match. I measure camber by holding a 4 ft level horizontal beside the tire and measuring from it to the top and bottom of the wheel rim (not tire since squashed out at bottom) and subtract. I'm happy with perfectly vertical tires (0 deg) or slight lean-in (~1/8").
Unless a track racer, you probably won't notice the camber setting. I say that because after our minivan was hit on the front side so the front left was leaning in way too much even with a new strut (~1" lean-in). I drove it like that for 6 months until insurance finished dragging their feet. It drove perfectly straight w/ hands off wheel on the freeway and I didn't even notice excessive inner tread wear. Later, I pushed the upper strut tower back, but still too much neg. camber (but much less than silly tuners).
Toe-in is most critical for tire wear and handling. Even slight toe-out while driving will cause the car to wander on the freeway. You want the fronts perfectly parallel while driving. With RWD, the fronts rotate back slightly when driving, so set slight toe-in to match. My 1985 M-B RWD manual spec's a spring-loaded rod for dealers to push the fwd side of the two fronts apart to take out play, so specs tight (~1/16" toe-in). If all your parts are new and tight, you could use that, otherwise 1/8" toe-in a common spec. That implies using a tape measure across the fwd then aft sides of the two tires (track width), as I do. Easiest if your tires have straight channels. Also implies measuring mid-height, which you can't reach on aft side with stuff hanging down, so I go as high as I can and match that on the front, proportioning down the spec (if can go only halfway up to midpoint, use half the spec, I know an arc isn't linear so use the sine function if fussy). I've tried taping the tape measure to the tire, which can work w/ Gorilla Tape, but better to use wifey to hold the end tight against the tread channel (she's trained now).
Don't get the bright idea to jack the body up so you can measure higher up on the tires on aft side. That is because toe-in changes with ride height. That is very important. I once tried to be a good boy by adjusting ride height in my 1969 Dart, per manual, raising it from the sagged height. We then wore out two new front tires in a 100 mile drive before I noticed that had greatly increased toe-in. It had handled fine. Thus, before any settings above, set ride height. People here recommend jacking the body to take weight off the torsion bars before screwing the adjusters, to avoid stripping the threads. More back and forth, but still much easier than Chevy/Ford guys fussing with coil springs. If you ignore that and strip your threads, I might have a spare set of T-bar adjusters at a great price ($500). My guess is true for most classic U.S. RWD cars and why people have long fussed that old cars drive poorly. Likely as the suspension sags, the fronts toe-out to cause wander.
Above is why you need a quickie method to verify toe-in every few years. I lie on my back to get down-there and hold a straight-edge along the front tire, as shown in post 41 to sight at the rear tire on that side. Easiest in my FWD vehicles which need slight toe-out (fronts pull to rotate toward toe-in while driving). I should sight the rear tire about 1" inward (first tread channel). For my RWD, I have wifey hold a ruler since the sightline should hit ~1" out from the rear tire. The sighting method only works if front and rear track widths are same, with same size tires on both (my vehicles). The sight method always well-matches my tape-measure method, and may even have better resolution. Often toe-in is so far off that you can just look at a vehicle in a parking lot from a distance to tell. The tape measure method is quite precise since I notice even 1/8" rotation of the tie rod adjuster, so doubt an alignment tech could do better. You need the tires on stacked slippy floor tiles, then drive the car around the block and check again, and also bounce up and down. That 2nd pass also lets you get the steering wheel perfectly straight, after thinking hard about which way each adjuster needs to turn.
Can a tech with a laser machine do better? Probably, but I have read stories of former alignment techs who said their coworkers (never them) would try to tap the mirrors around until the machine printed out an acceptable report, without actually adjusting anything on the car. If you go in, they likely won't have a 1960's car settings in their database so give them desired spec's. You can find a story online by Rick Ehrenberg of Mopar Action Magazine with suggested specs for different types of driving. Good luck and keep your eye on toe-in for your tires to last. The only time I've had a car pull hard to one side, it was due to the tires (verify by swapping L & R). In one case, it had worn thru to the steel belt on the inside tread (hard to see), so the wires were grabbing the asphalt to move the tire.
With settings above, you have no adjustment left for camber, which is how much the top of the tire leans in (negative camber). To get more adjustment, you need after-market tubular UCA's with adjustable Heim joints. I accept whatever camber results since the factory spec'd slight positive camber, which looks strange today (tops of tires leaning outward). That might have been specific to bias tires. You see tuners today with the tires leaning greatly inward (negative), some even using special rounded tires like a motorcycle to match. I measure camber by holding a 4 ft level horizontal beside the tire and measuring from it to the top and bottom of the wheel rim (not tire since squashed out at bottom) and subtract. I'm happy with perfectly vertical tires (0 deg) or slight lean-in (~1/8").
Unless a track racer, you probably won't notice the camber setting. I say that because after our minivan was hit on the front side so the front left was leaning in way too much even with a new strut (~1" lean-in). I drove it like that for 6 months until insurance finished dragging their feet. It drove perfectly straight w/ hands off wheel on the freeway and I didn't even notice excessive inner tread wear. Later, I pushed the upper strut tower back, but still too much neg. camber (but much less than silly tuners).
Toe-in is most critical for tire wear and handling. Even slight toe-out while driving will cause the car to wander on the freeway. You want the fronts perfectly parallel while driving. With RWD, the fronts rotate back slightly when driving, so set slight toe-in to match. My 1985 M-B RWD manual spec's a spring-loaded rod for dealers to push the fwd side of the two fronts apart to take out play, so specs tight (~1/16" toe-in). If all your parts are new and tight, you could use that, otherwise 1/8" toe-in a common spec. That implies using a tape measure across the fwd then aft sides of the two tires (track width), as I do. Easiest if your tires have straight channels. Also implies measuring mid-height, which you can't reach on aft side with stuff hanging down, so I go as high as I can and match that on the front, proportioning down the spec (if can go only halfway up to midpoint, use half the spec, I know an arc isn't linear so use the sine function if fussy). I've tried taping the tape measure to the tire, which can work w/ Gorilla Tape, but better to use wifey to hold the end tight against the tread channel (she's trained now).
Don't get the bright idea to jack the body up so you can measure higher up on the tires on aft side. That is because toe-in changes with ride height. That is very important. I once tried to be a good boy by adjusting ride height in my 1969 Dart, per manual, raising it from the sagged height. We then wore out two new front tires in a 100 mile drive before I noticed that had greatly increased toe-in. It had handled fine. Thus, before any settings above, set ride height. People here recommend jacking the body to take weight off the torsion bars before screwing the adjusters, to avoid stripping the threads. More back and forth, but still much easier than Chevy/Ford guys fussing with coil springs. If you ignore that and strip your threads, I might have a spare set of T-bar adjusters at a great price ($500). My guess is true for most classic U.S. RWD cars and why people have long fussed that old cars drive poorly. Likely as the suspension sags, the fronts toe-out to cause wander.
Above is why you need a quickie method to verify toe-in every few years. I lie on my back to get down-there and hold a straight-edge along the front tire, as shown in post 41 to sight at the rear tire on that side. Easiest in my FWD vehicles which need slight toe-out (fronts pull to rotate toward toe-in while driving). I should sight the rear tire about 1" inward (first tread channel). For my RWD, I have wifey hold a ruler since the sightline should hit ~1" out from the rear tire. The sighting method only works if front and rear track widths are same, with same size tires on both (my vehicles). The sight method always well-matches my tape-measure method, and may even have better resolution. Often toe-in is so far off that you can just look at a vehicle in a parking lot from a distance to tell. The tape measure method is quite precise since I notice even 1/8" rotation of the tie rod adjuster, so doubt an alignment tech could do better. You need the tires on stacked slippy floor tiles, then drive the car around the block and check again, and also bounce up and down. That 2nd pass also lets you get the steering wheel perfectly straight, after thinking hard about which way each adjuster needs to turn.
Can a tech with a laser machine do better? Probably, but I have read stories of former alignment techs who said their coworkers (never them) would try to tap the mirrors around until the machine printed out an acceptable report, without actually adjusting anything on the car. If you go in, they likely won't have a 1960's car settings in their database so give them desired spec's. You can find a story online by Rick Ehrenberg of Mopar Action Magazine with suggested specs for different types of driving. Good luck and keep your eye on toe-in for your tires to last. The only time I've had a car pull hard to one side, it was due to the tires (verify by swapping L & R). In one case, it had worn thru to the steel belt on the inside tread (hard to see), so the wires were grabbing the asphalt to move the tire.
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Lonewolf3165
Living the Dream!
Important things to note here regarding alignments in general.
Always set CASTER 1st then
Camber 2nd and lastly Toe.
CASTER - CAMBER - TOE.
Because Caster affects Camber and Camber affects Toe. Adjust out of order and you can screw it up real fast.
If you’re going to do it yourself then get yourself a magnetic bubble gauge to measure Caster and Camber. We have a saying in the industry “The bubble never lies!” Make sure to read the instructions carefully and be sure that the gauge is as perfectly centered on the wheel as possible because any runout can affect your measurements. Make sure the gauge goes over the dust cap on the wheel bearing so it sits flush. If not remove the dust cap and stick it on the bearing washer.
Also make the angle degree marks so that you know exactly how much you turn it when doing your Caster swing(measurement). The reason we use 20* is that amount is not enough to get into the increased amount of toe out on turns (Ackerman Angle effect). So it’s important to do 20*.
Other things to know:
A vehicle will pull towards the side of the car that has LESS Positive CASTER. 1/2* less on driver’s side is good to correct for road crown.
A vehicle will pull towards the side of the car that has MORE Positive CAMBER (think of leaning a bicycle to turn). Again, 1/2* to correct for road crown is ok.
You really might want to consider finding a good alignment specialist and having them do it when you consider that the cost of an alignment is between $100-150 average on a classic car vs a decent bubble gauge at $100-150 to only use once and that’s not going to help you with toe adjustments at all.
Sorry for lengthy reply but I used to teach Steering and Suspension/ Brakes at a major automotive trade school so alignment is kinda my thing. So much diy misinformation out there.
Always set CASTER 1st then
Camber 2nd and lastly Toe.
CASTER - CAMBER - TOE.
Because Caster affects Camber and Camber affects Toe. Adjust out of order and you can screw it up real fast.
If you’re going to do it yourself then get yourself a magnetic bubble gauge to measure Caster and Camber. We have a saying in the industry “The bubble never lies!” Make sure to read the instructions carefully and be sure that the gauge is as perfectly centered on the wheel as possible because any runout can affect your measurements. Make sure the gauge goes over the dust cap on the wheel bearing so it sits flush. If not remove the dust cap and stick it on the bearing washer.
Also make the angle degree marks so that you know exactly how much you turn it when doing your Caster swing(measurement). The reason we use 20* is that amount is not enough to get into the increased amount of toe out on turns (Ackerman Angle effect). So it’s important to do 20*.
Other things to know:
A vehicle will pull towards the side of the car that has LESS Positive CASTER. 1/2* less on driver’s side is good to correct for road crown.
A vehicle will pull towards the side of the car that has MORE Positive CAMBER (think of leaning a bicycle to turn). Again, 1/2* to correct for road crown is ok.
You really might want to consider finding a good alignment specialist and having them do it when you consider that the cost of an alignment is between $100-150 average on a classic car vs a decent bubble gauge at $100-150 to only use once and that’s not going to help you with toe adjustments at all.
Sorry for lengthy reply but I used to teach Steering and Suspension/ Brakes at a major automotive trade school so alignment is kinda my thing. So much diy misinformation out there.
TT5.9mag
Two atmospheres are better than one
That’s a great post ^^^@Lonewolf3165, I agree with the entire post except one point you made. Using the bubble gauge only once. I thought the same thing until I finally bought one and it’s payed for itself many times over.
Ironracer
Gearhead
I've tried measuren' them off the treads, always being careful to make sure I'm at the same point on each one, either inside or outside the groove, must be the tires that I currently have on there, cuz I had no luck at that when I did the straight edge thing it got dialed right in with a straight steering wheel the first time! I guess there's one more one way to dial Yer skins on your Mopar! Happy Moparing Everyone!
I just wanted to give you guys an update. I've gotten to drive the car for the last week and it drives great! Thanks again for all the suggestions. I ending up using my digital angle gage as described with the front tires each on 2 1/16" thick teflon cooking sheets with grease in between as turn-plates. I set the toe by stringing the car to get both sides even and then using CrackedBack's toe method to check the overall. I currently have the camber at -.5 on both sides with the caster at max possible and the toe-in at 1/8". I do have a very slight drift to the right on some roads which could easily be from the used front tires. There is no pull to either side when braking. I do need to tweak the tie-rods to dead-center the steering wheel once I am sure that I'm satisfied with the other settings.
Ironracer
Gearhead
Sounds like you did pretty good
Mine came out killer as well! Screw the (sic) "alignment" shops
I use two magnetic angle gauges, one on the disc and one on the spindle flat. Then for toe a piece of 1” angle 30” long clamped to disc each side then measure front and back. I got 5* camber 0* caster 1/8” toe. I also use struts where shock is then get correct distance from lower ball joint and T Bar flat per SM. I also have adjustable struts to gain more or less camber. This is a race car only.
Inertia
Well-Known Member
Hope you got caster/camber mixed . lol
More than likely I did, after many years I still can’t keep them right, which one leans back?
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