Probably a Dumb 318 Question

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Joey N

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Hey there folks, I was just wondering and I’m sure no one has a direct answer but I’m thinking… most people say that there is not much potential in the 318 but I remembered the ford coyote (5.0) is actually quite a small engine yet this engine outputs 460hp 420tq with just a 3.63 bore 3.65 stroke. 12:1 comp ratio on pump gas!!! 55cc head chambers cam around .550 lift. So my question is, is this doable to a 318 if not why? Is it the aftermarket head and piston support holding you back?
Thanks in advance
 
And don’t get mad at me I’m still learning I know there is a 50 year difference in these engines but I don’t think it’s just electronics that makes the engine have a higher output
 
There is so much into these new gen engines. VVT, etc etc etc.... and that 460 hp is "net hp". Can you get 460 hp out of a 318? Sure, but NA it won't idle like the coyote
 
Cannot even start to compare a 318 to a coyote engine. Completely different technology in them.

Soccer moms drive V6 cars with 400 horses.
 
It is much, much easier to get 460hp out of a modern engine than the old 318. A 460hp 318 would be barely recognizable due to its heavy reliance on modifications and aftermarket involvement, let alone the money needed. It is a mistake to compare old cars with new. We appreciate old cars just as they are.
 
The Coyote is an entirely different format. Dual overhead cams, 4 valves per cylinder. It was BUILT as a high performance engine. The 318 was not. That doesn't mean the 318 cannot make power. It's just not on the same level of engine as the Coyote.
 
Hey there folks, I was just wondering and I’m sure no one has a direct answer but I’m thinking… most people say that there is not much potential in the 318 but I remembered the ford coyote (5.0) is actually quite a small engine yet this engine outputs 460hp 420tq with just a 3.63 bore 3.65 stroke. 12:1 comp ratio on pump gas!!! 55cc head chambers cam around .550 lift. So my question is, is this doable to a 318 if not why? Is it the aftermarket head and piston support holding you back?
Thanks in advance

Not a dumb question and if you don’t know, you don’t know.
So this is my take on the often seen and labeled, lowly 318.
I’m sure the 318 haters will be along shortly.

318 LA vs Fords coyote.

The Ford has ever advantage the modern world has to offer with the LA having major problems upgrading to the Fords level. While there is a bunch that can be done to raise it up, sometimes, you just can’t get there from here BUT! There is always wheel barrels of money to be thrown at such a project. Just spend your money like the US government spends there money.

What? NASA needs a hammer, here is 50K for it.
Now go away.

What? Astronauts need a new shitter? Whatever….
Here is 500K for that.
Now go away.

Let’s look at the Ford. Computer, fuel injection, roller cams, light weight parts, superior machining, heads, etc on parts material.

The LA is going to have to upgrade to some of that if not all of it if possible. So what’s the LA’s biggest issue?

It has no computer.
The fuel injection available at a reasonable price is not at the same level as a Ford or any modern vehicle.
Cylinder heads are a wedge design, AKA, not good next to a multi valve newer designed head.
Camshaft timing variable on the Ford?

Here is how to create a killer LA designed from yesteryear.

Port fuel injection available the intake and use sequential part fuel injection with a computer to customize and time and vary the amount of fuel needed. Just like a modern engine!

Variable cam timing. The best you can do is just use Rhodes lifters on your Hyd roller cams.

Cylinder heads. Use the best flowing heads you can get that fit in a minimum of the 318’s 3.91 bore size. Don’t worry about valve shrouding.

Use the best headers at 1-3/4 to move that spent fuel out.

Somewhat copy what you can or match what the Ford has already. It’s an up hill battle that can be won to a certain extent.
Making more HP is possible. But what level of power are you trying to top since, there is always another coyote who’s faster

For speed purposes, focus on the cars weight and distribution and add a trans mission with multiple gears. More than 4 is the home run for automatics and more than 5 for manual transmissions.

The modern engines have a lot of tech, past lessons and machining advantages the LA. never had and may be impossible to mimic.

The only advantage you have is cubic inches. That’s it. Nothing else. Unless your wallet is as thick as a lotto mega winner.
 
The biggest problem with the 318 is the stock heads don't flow well.
Even ported, it’ll have a difficult time making the power.
Same with stock 360 heads.

Cylinder head flow is the key item here.
 
Richard Holdner has made four digit horse power from a 5.3l LS with a small turbo. I've wondered how close a roller 318 (5.2l) could get with trick flow heads, aftermarket rods and a similar turbo. Would the 318 crank and 2 bolt mains come rocketing through the pan?
 
Richard Holdner has made four digit horse power from a 5.3l LS with a small turbo. I've wondered how close a roller 318 (5.2l) could get with trick flow heads, aftermarket rods and a similar turbo. Would the 318 crank and 2 bolt mains come rocketing through the pan?
boost and NOS is a game changer. 318 block probably isn't liking 4 digit hp. LOL
 
Richard Holdner has made four digit horse power from a 5.3l LS with a small turbo. I've wondered how close a roller 318 (5.2l) could get with trick flow heads, aftermarket rods and a similar turbo. Would the 318 crank and 2 bolt mains come rocketing through the pan?
Same/similar power I’d bet. As long as the heads flow equally or darn close to the LS and the camshaft/valve lift is the same/super close.

There is no reason the La wouldn’t like boost of built right. Certainly not as the OEM built it back in the day.
 
Generally if you run a top end (heads cam cr intake etc..) that can support 460 hp you'll make about 460 hp. Obviously there's a little more to it then that.

Here's a 477 hp 318
https://www.hotrod.com/articles/0901phr-mopar-318-magnum-engine/
Impressive numbers but they did a whole lot of trick stuff to get there. If you had to pay for all the work it might cost $10,000+ as a guess. Hot Rod's 400 horse teen was closer to bolt together. That extra 77 horse isn't worth the extra dough. It's all about "I can, so I did".
 
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Impressive numbers but they did a whole lot of trick stuff to get there. If you had to pay for all the work it might cost $10,000+ as a guess. Hor Rod's 400 horse teen was closer to bolt together. That extra 77 horse isn't worth the extra dough. It's all about "I can, so I did".
They did some trick bottom end work, but I doubt it would make that much difference with a more standard bottom end build, the ported heads and cam is responsible for most of it, which now days you should be able to just go with a set of trick flows to get the job done.
 
LOLOL


weslake-jpg.1715006937
 
Impressive numbers but they did a whole lot of trick stuff to get there. If you had to pay for all the work it might cost $10,000+ as a guess. Hor Rod's 400 horse teen was closer to bolt together. That extra 77 horse isn't worth the extra dough. It's all about "I can, so I did".

Costs rise. A new in the box Coyote isn’t cheap. You can build your own engine cheaper and if you do a lot of your own work…. Cheaper yet.

As 273 pointed to a build, (one I had a bit of a hard time believing when it was printed FWIW) he is 100% correct if the parts are there to support it, now it’s just a matter of where the engine will make the power. This is partial to the displacement.

Efficiency is the other side of the card and why I said what I did above. You can make a gas guzzler or one that can zip the fuel. This is where the breathing abilities in and out are crucial. Hence why I pointed to the cylinder heads and a good fuel injection set up.

Today, I think a better flowing head vs the OEM R/T or at least a well prepped R/T if you can actually find a set, so sub out the R/T for Edelbrocks, a smaller cam can be used and make it a roller of course. A smaller more efficient carb and I think it’ll be done.

IMO, that is a bit of a heavy camshaft for a 318. But if that’s what it took to get there back then, then that’s what it took.
 
Variable camshaft timing, 4 valves per cylinder, direct fuel injection, low tension piston rings, lightweight rotating assembly, advanced combustion chamber design, are just a few of the advantages the Coyote has over the LA series engines. A 318 can make that level of power, sure, but the cost to get there and the end result in terms of drivability make it kind of pointless.
I had a 2013 Mustang GT with the Coyote that was an absolute blast to drive at any speed, extremely reliable, and still got 30 mpg cruising at 80 mph. I could never say that any of my Mopars, while a blast to drive, would ever get that kind of fuel economy while delivering that level of power and performance. Apples to oranges.
 
Cannot even start to compare a 318 to a coyote engine. Completely different technology in them.

Soccer moms drive V6 cars with 400 horses.
Yes I do understand that I am more just baffled with how much that engine is putting out with such a small bore and our so called "little junker" 318 usually cant get to those numbers without turbo/supercharger or being stroked
 
It is much, much easier to get 460hp out of a modern engine than the old 318. A 460hp 318 would be barely recognizable due to its heavy reliance on modifications and aftermarket involvement, let alone the money needed. It is a mistake to compare old cars with new. We appreciate old cars just as they are.
I agree I do not really like newer cars not against them but just prefer the shittier ride of my duster haha
 
Not a dumb question and if you don’t know, you don’t know.
So this is my take on the often seen and labeled, lowly 318.
I’m sure the 318 haters will be along shortly.

318 LA vs Fords coyote.

The Ford has ever advantage the modern world has to offer with the LA having major problems upgrading to the Fords level. While there is a bunch that can be done to raise it up, sometimes, you just can’t get there from here BUT! There is always wheel barrels of money to be thrown at such a project. Just spend your money like the US government spends there money.

What? NASA needs a hammer, here is 50K for it.
Now go away.

What? Astronauts need a new shitter? Whatever….
Here is 500K for that.
Now go away.

Let’s look at the Ford. Computer, fuel injection, roller cams, light weight parts, superior machining, heads, etc on parts material.

The LA is going to have to upgrade to some of that if not all of it if possible. So what’s the LA’s biggest issue?

It has no computer.
The fuel injection available at a reasonable price is not at the same level as a Ford or any modern vehicle.
Cylinder heads are a wedge design, AKA, not good next to a multi valve newer designed head.
Camshaft timing variable on the Ford?

Here is how to create a killer LA designed from yesteryear.

Port fuel injection available the intake and use sequential part fuel injection with a computer to customize and time and vary the amount of fuel needed. Just like a modern engine!

Variable cam timing. The best you can do is just use Rhodes lifters on your Hyd roller cams.

Cylinder heads. Use the best flowing heads you can get that fit in a minimum of the 318’s 3.91 bore size. Don’t worry about valve shrouding.

Use the best headers at 1-3/4 to move that spent fuel out.

Somewhat copy what you can or match what the Ford has already. It’s an up hill battle that can be won to a certain extent.
Making more HP is possible. But what level of power are you trying to top since, there is always another coyote who’s faster

For speed purposes, focus on the cars weight and distribution and add a trans mission with multiple gears. More than 4 is the home run for automatics and more than 5 for manual transmissions.

The modern engines have a lot of tech, past lessons and machining advantages the LA. never had and may be impossible to mimic.

The only advantage you have is cubic inches. That’s it. Nothing else. Unless your wallet is as thick as a lotto mega winner.
Im going to keep this in my back pocket fro my 318 build which Ill jot down my build below see what ya think
 
Yes I do understand that I am more just baffled with how much that engine is putting out with such a small bore and our so called "little junker" 318 usually cant get to those numbers without turbo/supercharger or being stroked
318 don't need to be super charged or stroked to make same power, making the power is somewhat easy if you have the cash, it's the drivability part that's hard, a lot of the money these companies spend in research and development it to cut emissions and gain fuel mileage etc.. for a given hp, If you don't care about those things the power part is relatively easy even with a 318.
 
IMO, that is a bit of a heavy camshaft for a 318. But if that’s what it took to get there back then, then that’s what it took.
i had the same thought.

in the same vein, i'd bet a smaller solid roller would make that a little better mannered and if you set phasers to stun and not kill it'd probably drive okay on the street... maybe giving up 15~20hp
 
If you wanted to build a high powered 318 with decent mileage, you got to build similar to modern engines, keep cam relatively mild and make power with heads, possibly turbo/super charger, overdrive etc..
 
Block-- 318 .30 over (so 323 :lol: )
Crank-- Stock CFD crank
Rods-- 340 full floating
Pistons-- Wiseco 1.800 comp height -5cc reliefs
Heads- Speedmaster valve job/ported
Rockers-- want 1.6 or 1.7 (expensive)
Cam-- Herber Roller .500intake .500exhaust 112 LSA 225°/235° @.50 (.530/.530 with 1.6 or .566/.566 w/1.7)
Intake-- Edelbrock Dual plane Air Gap
Carb-- Holley 750
Headers-- Somethin good

Maybe Deck the block down ? mill the heads down?
Let me know what you guys think open to any critiques
 
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