First don't piss off the fire dept. Next could you move your bldg. I know I put mine at the back of the property and now I have a golf cart. (me old) but behind the garage would have been much better, elec. lines, water lines, wifi, gas lines etc. And why not drop a water line to it also lots of fire hydrants around (hehe) or just a fitting that fits their hoses.
Putting up a shop in CA - fire department being a pain
- Thread starter ESP47
- Start date
-
Beams
Well-Known Member
Is the compaction testing and reporting required only on the 50 feet of dirt? What kind of gravel is in the 100 foot section?
I should probably know the exact date the code changed, but the Camp Fire was 2018 and the code was updated after that to improve access for fire apparatus.
Remember when the fire dept put out fires.
That's all I have to say !
That's all I have to say !
I had to pay a 2.76% "excise" tax for the privelage of moving out of Washington state 2 years ago. Bastards.
Nobody is going to beat you up for not knowing everything.
The average fire engine costs close to 1 million dollars now. The average fire truck, with the 100’ aerial ladder needed for fighting many large commercial building fires like some of your shop buildings would be, are closer to 3 million each. A decent sized shop, well involved with fire might easily require 3-5 fire engines, 2 trucks and upwards of 30 firefighters to extinguish.
And of course, it’s not like you’re building shelter. You’re building a shop for your hobby, where you will likely be doing stuff like welding, working with flammable chemicals, storing fuel, tires, and whatever other highly flammable items you can stuff in there. So the risk of fire is much higher than a regular old house and the risks of fighting that fire are exponentially higher.
So you don’t want to pay, because you’re cheap bastards. But I bet if your shop catches fire you probably still want the fire dept to show up and put it out right? And show up fast enough and fight fire aggressively enough to keep that fire out of your home? Your neighbors home? You’d want them to evacuate your family if you or your neighbors weren’t home when that happened right? Of course you do.
I’ve been a professional firefighter for over 20 years. I’ve been burned, broken bones, torn cartilage, had surgery, collapsed from exhaustion, pulled muscles and generally abused my body to save people’s lives, property, etc. I’ve watched several of my coworkers die from cancer, some of whom were younger than me. And watched many more fight cancer despite being young and healthy individuals that don’t have history or risk factors beyond the carcinogens they’re exposed to in this job.
So yeah, building your shop costs some money. And yeah, we got tired of risking our lives fighting fire in some death trap that some moron built cheap in his backyard, so there’s fire code you have to follow so we don’t die because of your stupidity. We don’t get to pick and choose which fires we go to, we go to all of them.
For @ESP47, I would suggest getting ahold of whoever is doing the plan review at South Placer Fire. They should be willing to explain what they need and why, and if there are any exemptions or variances that your particular project might qualify for. A lot of that stuff is required per code based on property size or square footage, so sometimes it pops up on projects that don’t necessarily need some of that stuff for other reasons.
72bluNblu
You put up a great explanation from a fire fighters side of the coin.
Personally, i never would have thought anything like that.
Gave me a better insight, the job that you do.
You put up a great explanation from a fire fighters side of the coin.
Personally, i never would have thought anything like that.
Gave me a better insight, the job that you do.
I don't think that anyone is criticizing the firefighters directly. As usual, it is the management that is to blame.
Think about it...The rank and file people are the ones that do the work, it is the "representation" that is hard to trust because it often seems like they have an agenda.
Unions for example. The spokespeople support certain candidates while the majority of the members support the other side.
The CEOs of a business put out some public relations story that flies in the face of the real conditions that the blue collar people experience every day.
Nobody likes to have their wallet grabbed. We all pay property taxes, right? Well, landowners do anyway. That tax money pays for police, fire, emergency services and government, right?
I know firefighters. I have tremendous respect for their dedication. Do not misunderstand our aversion to taxation as a slam against the actual people that fight fires and save lives.
Think about it...The rank and file people are the ones that do the work, it is the "representation" that is hard to trust because it often seems like they have an agenda.
Unions for example. The spokespeople support certain candidates while the majority of the members support the other side.
The CEOs of a business put out some public relations story that flies in the face of the real conditions that the blue collar people experience every day.
Nobody likes to have their wallet grabbed. We all pay property taxes, right? Well, landowners do anyway. That tax money pays for police, fire, emergency services and government, right?
I know firefighters. I have tremendous respect for their dedication. Do not misunderstand our aversion to taxation as a slam against the actual people that fight fires and save lives.
Jeremiah (jd)
Well-Known Member
You will most certainly need to provide access and possibly enough area to turn at minimum, a type 3 engine around. The requirements are similar here in Oregon for new construction. To me these requirements make sense however I alaways marvel at how many rural folks I know with driveways that barely allow a 3/4 ton pickup to get turned around. Add in the fact that everyone thinks becaise they live near the forest it has to exist right up to the back door of the house and you have your hands full during a structure fire that soon becomes a wildland fire.
It's not just the West Coast that has these rules in place:
Fire Apparatus Access Roads | NFPA
When I lived in WI the local FD brought an engine in to fight a fire at a house adjacent to a church. The engine damaged the asphalt parking lot of the church and it sparked a debate of culpability.
Was it the land owner's responsibility to provide unabridged access for emergency services?
Should the municipality be held responsible for a damaged driveway or parking lot?
Regardless of where you stand on these matters be prepared to see more stipulations called out in building codes. Too many people have come after the utilities and emergency service providers for collateral damages incurred during an emergency.
As an example, a neighboring ranch has a large irrigation system that aggregates with several huge valves etc. This outpost happens to be unmarked at ground
level right at a tight corner one the road bordering the edge of their hay field. It was common for this irrigation to get damaged seasonally due to it's proximity to a tight corner on a narrow private road. Naturally they put all of this in within the fall line of a utility pole which is a bad idea in general. We had an unusually precipitous spring snow storm several years back and the power lines came down. Naturally the bucket truck from Pacific Power drove right over the irrigation plant (under the snow, unmarked at ground level). The land owners were outraged (-which baffles me) and proceeded to sue to utility for the repairs to the irrigation hidden in three feet of melting snow.
The point of this anecdote is to exemplify exactly why these codes are popping up.
Everything in the current world revolves around mitigating risk and proactively avoiding litigation. When the insurance companies start to say adios the severity of the situation becomes much more apparent.
It's not just the West Coast that has these rules in place:
Fire Apparatus Access Roads | NFPA
When I lived in WI the local FD brought an engine in to fight a fire at a house adjacent to a church. The engine damaged the asphalt parking lot of the church and it sparked a debate of culpability.
Was it the land owner's responsibility to provide unabridged access for emergency services?
Should the municipality be held responsible for a damaged driveway or parking lot?
Regardless of where you stand on these matters be prepared to see more stipulations called out in building codes. Too many people have come after the utilities and emergency service providers for collateral damages incurred during an emergency.
As an example, a neighboring ranch has a large irrigation system that aggregates with several huge valves etc. This outpost happens to be unmarked at ground
level right at a tight corner one the road bordering the edge of their hay field. It was common for this irrigation to get damaged seasonally due to it's proximity to a tight corner on a narrow private road. Naturally they put all of this in within the fall line of a utility pole which is a bad idea in general. We had an unusually precipitous spring snow storm several years back and the power lines came down. Naturally the bucket truck from Pacific Power drove right over the irrigation plant (under the snow, unmarked at ground level). The land owners were outraged (-which baffles me) and proceeded to sue to utility for the repairs to the irrigation hidden in three feet of melting snow.
The point of this anecdote is to exemplify exactly why these codes are popping up.
Everything in the current world revolves around mitigating risk and proactively avoiding litigation. When the insurance companies start to say adios the severity of the situation becomes much more apparent.
1WildRT
Well-Known Member
I can agree the rules are there for a reason.... But Either install a 20,000 gallon tank or make a donation sounds an awful lot like a gangster style "protection" racket.... JMHO
Imagine the ground requirements for installing a 20,000 gallon water container? The weight of the container plus 8.33 pounds per gallon of water plus the cost of filling it with city water..
How have I ever survived here in Tx. or Mo.? Rural volunteer fire department, old (ancient) equipment, NO hydrants, no silly fees and BS costs, redneck firefighters... how in the heck do they ever put out a fire? 
Wow, has this thread turned political. If you notice your posts missing or the whole thread gone don't be surprised.
70,000lbs sounds like a lot, but most typical fire engines are in the 30-50k range. Our water tender is 50k with a full tank, and it's not even a big one.
Never realized you were a firefighter, I've got 13 years on (late bloomer). You said all I was going to say here and more.
And to touch on the comments earlier about stretching longer lays of hose -- yes, of course they (we) have hundreds of feet of handline, and likely a thousand feet +/- of larger diameter supply hose. Regions vary, but in general, that's a safe assumption. We can get to some pretty hard to reach places stretching line, but I'm assuming they've put that code in place so they can get their apparatus staged appropriately and not 200 feet away.
The longer the lay, the more water is needed to fill all that hose, and more manpower is required to stretch all that hose before even getting to work.
junkyardhero
Well-Known Member
building anything to code is always a ball ache. then you get the inspectors that just straight up don't care because they were [insert contractor profession] in their previous life and [blank] is their special topic and they want that done in a specific way no matter what the book says.
when i did my shop i had to jump thru all the hoops: can't be taller than this, has to be this far from existing structure, this far from property line, doors can't face this way, you need this dumb thing, you can't have this, that or the other thing otherwise it's defined as [blank] and now we tax it as something other than a garage, so now your permit is another 5K or whatever. so many stupid little things; but i know they were all there for one reason or another.
the best advice i can give you is go thru formal plan check and get blue prints, it'll cost a little more money but down the line if they try and cheeze you on something you can fall back on your paperwork that was already okayed. also, don't be afraid to go upchain! inspector is being difficult? ask for a senior or managing inspector. same with the fire code stuff, somebody mentioned upthread: go directly to the source and see what their requirements and and get that in writing.
and i cannot stress this enough: get.it.in.writing. signed and dated, on official letterhead. paperwork is *king* when dealing with wannabe tyrants.
when i did my shop i had to jump thru all the hoops: can't be taller than this, has to be this far from existing structure, this far from property line, doors can't face this way, you need this dumb thing, you can't have this, that or the other thing otherwise it's defined as [blank] and now we tax it as something other than a garage, so now your permit is another 5K or whatever. so many stupid little things; but i know they were all there for one reason or another.
the best advice i can give you is go thru formal plan check and get blue prints, it'll cost a little more money but down the line if they try and cheeze you on something you can fall back on your paperwork that was already okayed. also, don't be afraid to go upchain! inspector is being difficult? ask for a senior or managing inspector. same with the fire code stuff, somebody mentioned upthread: go directly to the source and see what their requirements and and get that in writing.
and i cannot stress this enough: get.it.in.writing. signed and dated, on official letterhead. paperwork is *king* when dealing with wannabe tyrants.
That is why people live in the country...no zoning, build what you like, how you like, where you like...and worst thing we have is property tax people. But if you sell, be prepared for the buyer to have it "inspected" to see that it is "constructed" to meet that guys idea of correct! so the buyer can get a mortgage or loan.
No, when we sold our house it was added in to the paperwork. If we bought another house in the state, they would have refunded the money. Nice, huh?
ESP47
Well-Known Member
The fire dept wants the dirt area and the gravel drive area both tested. The gravel area isn't a legit compacted driveway. It's just dirt with gravel laid on top that's been driven on here and there for years. It's naturally compacted but not legit compacted.
So far I've had about 10 geo engineering businesses tell me they don't do residential and 3 tell me they do residential but there's no point in even coming out until I compact the dirt and at least 4 inches of compacted gravel on top of it because they won't certify it for 75k lbs otherwise.
I get not wanting to get your massive fire truck up to its axle in mud but regular homeowners are not cities and counties that can just up and pour 260ft roads at the snap of their fingers. If I could just sign a waiver that states if my shop goes up in flames, then oh well, I'd do it.
So far I've had about 10 geo engineering businesses tell me they don't do residential and 3 tell me they do residential but there's no point in even coming out until I compact the dirt and at least 4 inches of compacted gravel on top of it because they won't certify it for 75k lbs otherwise.
I get not wanting to get your massive fire truck up to its axle in mud but regular homeowners are not cities and counties that can just up and pour 260ft roads at the snap of their fingers. If I could just sign a waiver that states if my shop goes up in flames, then oh well, I'd do it.
Exactly. Even if there was concrete poured, the substrate would still have to be X thick and compacted before the X inches thick crete was poured. Probably 8" thick. At $120 a cu/ft. a 12' wide driveway 10' long would cost $360. Do the math from there. No labor, grading , or materials for that.
lilcuda
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Apr 15, 2006
- Messages
- 1,128
- Reaction score
- 136
That’s not a thing. It has been discussed, but for now, there is no exit tax.
that has to be one of the hardest most dangerous jobs out there . My yard a lumber yard was set on fire by kids in the 70's had to help the firemen move pallets of wood move mobile cranes and other stuff , with the smoke and heat with **** falling inches from me it was hell , never would want to be in that sittuation again . Had trouble breathing for a few weeks after that .Firefighters have it tough , don't make it harder on them
Jim Lusk
Well-Known Member
My son is outside Grass Valley. They were not allowed to put in a paved driveway (probably around 150'). The gravel was just laid on the dirt. It is unlikely the little single lane bridge over the creek to get to their place will support 70k lbs. Weird rules all over...Also, it would be very difficult to turn a large rig around at their place.
dmopar74
Well-Known Member
What are the requirements in the municipal code? Has your permit been approved?
ESP47
Well-Known Member
Permit has been approved and construction can begin but I cannot get the final sign off until the county fire gives their approval. Which is odd because what happens if I get the building erected and the driveway doesn't pass the compaction test? I now have to tear it down?
Unless there is something else in the state's fire code (that cannot be found online for free), then I believe the bolded part below proves that they are implementing the fire code incorrectly against me. Problem is we're dealing with humans here. If I just walk in and show this to their subject matter expert, they aren't just going to say "hey you're right, we'll approve your plans right now". Their ego is going to push back on this because I'm essentially saying "you're wrong and I'm right". I need to find a tactful way of going about this when I go in there next week.
So far not a single geological engineering company will sign off on compaction testing certifying the dirt for 75k lbs. At minimum they want a compacted 4" gravel driveway put in and a couple companies want 10" of compacted gravel before they'll do the test.
Here's what I found on their code appendix page:
Driveways
Driveways for access to one- and two-family dwellings, shall conform to the following criteria as applicable:
1. Driveways serving one parcel with no more than five structures shall be a minimum of twelve (12) feet in width. The chief may require up to a twenty (20) foot wide driveway when more than five structures exist.
2. Roadways serving more than one parcel, but less than five parcels, shall be a minimum twenty (20) feet in width. Roadways serving five parcels or more shall be no less than 24 feet in width.
3. Vertical clearance shall be a minimum of fifteen (15) feet.
4. When the driveway exceeds 150 feet in length, provide a turnout at the midpoint. For driveways not exceeding 400 feet in length, the turnout may be omitted if full sight distance is maintained. If the driveway exceeds 800 feet in length, turnouts shall be no more than 400 feet apart.
5. When a driveway exceeds 300 feet in length, a turnaround shall be provided no greater than 50 feet from the structure.
6. The driveway must be provided with an all-weather surface capable of supporting a 75,000 lb. vehicle loading. When the road grade exceeds ten (10) percent, the road shall be surfaced with asphalt or concrete.
-
