Putting up a shop in CA - fire department being a pain

[dmopar74]

Permit has been approved and construction can begin but I cannot get the final sign off until the county fire gives their approval. Which is odd because what happens if I get the building erected and the driveway doesn't pass the compaction test? I now have to tear it down?

Unless there is something else in the state's fire code (that cannot be found online for free), then I believe the bolded part below proves that they are implementing the fire code incorrectly against me. Problem is we're dealing with humans here. If I just walk in and show this to their subject matter expert, they aren't just going to say "hey you're right, we'll approve your plans right now". Their ego is going to push back on this because I'm essentially saying "you're wrong and I'm right". I need to find a tactful way of going about this when I go in there next week.

So far not a single geological engineering company will sign off on compaction testing certifying the dirt for 75k lbs. At minimum they want a compacted 4" gravel driveway put in and a couple companies want 10" of compacted gravel before they'll do the test.

Here's what I found on their code appendix page:

Driveways
Driveways for access to one- and two-family dwellings, shall conform to the following criteria as applicable:
1. Driveways serving one parcel with no more than five structures shall be a minimum of twelve (12) feet in width. The chief may require up to a twenty (20) foot wide driveway when more than five structures exist.
2. Roadways serving more than one parcel, but less than five parcels, shall be a minimum twenty (20) feet in width. Roadways serving five parcels or more shall be no less than 24 feet in width.
3. Vertical clearance shall be a minimum of fifteen (15) feet.
4. When the driveway exceeds 150 feet in length, provide a turnout at the midpoint. For driveways not exceeding 400 feet in length, the turnout may be omitted if full sight distance is maintained. If the driveway exceeds 800 feet in length, turnouts shall be no more than 400 feet apart.
5. When a driveway exceeds 300 feet in length, a turnaround shall be provided no greater than 50 feet from the structure.
6. The driveway must be provided with an all-weather surface capable of supporting a 75,000 lb. vehicle loading. When the road grade exceeds ten (10) percent, the road shall be surfaced with asphalt or concrete.

I agree they are bending the rules as the shop is not a dwelling. The requirements for the driveway should have been addressed by the fire dept in the pre approval. I'm curious how you got an approved permit without this addressed .

 

[72bluNblu]

How have I ever survived here in Tx. or Mo.? Rural volunteer fire department, old (ancient) equipment, NO hydrants, no silly fees and BS costs, redneck firefighters... how in the heck do they ever put out a fire?

They don't, not at the level of a professional department with modern equipment.

I was a volunteer in a rural area for several years before I became a professional paid firefighter. To put it simply, we could not meet the NFPA standards for responding to structure fires for the vast majority of our response area. Respond from home, to the fire station to pick up the engine, then respond to the call. Even getting to the fire within 10 minutes would have been good for us in a lot of situations.

At the 10 minute mark, if you didn't get out of your house on your own you're dead. Your home is well involved, and unless multiple engines show up at that time to provide a continuous water supply and multiple hose lines there will be no chance at saving whatever remains of that structure. It will be a foundation scrape. For a medical aid, well, if your heart isn't beating and no one is doing CPR for 10 minutes you're done. I've responded to both as a volunteer, and the timeline just makes it impossible. Yes, most volunteers will get there fast enough to save the neighborhood, but they're not getting there fast enough with enough resources to save you or your home.

Meanwhile, at my paid municipal department, we're getting to 80%+ of our calls in 5 minutes or less. That stove top fire hasn't even left the kitchen, anyone in the house is still doing ok and grandma in the back bedroom in the wheelchair hasn't even noticed yet. A single engine can knock that fire out in a couple minutes. You get out of the whole thing with a kitchen remodel at the worst - instead of a tear down. And if it's a medical aid, and you dropped dead immediately after making the call, well, you're still a viable human being when we start CPR.

The volunteer department I used to work for is now mostly paid professional. They serve the area where I now live again. And yeah, when I built my shop there was a fee for the fire department. And yes, when I pay my property taxes there's a yearly fee for their service. And it's MORE than worth the improvement in the service they provide compared to what I did for them 20+ years ago.

Permit has been approved and construction can begin but I cannot get the final sign off until the county fire gives their approval. Which is odd because what happens if I get the building erected and the driveway doesn't pass the compaction test? I now have to tear it down?

Unless there is something else in the state's fire code (that cannot be found online for free), then I believe the bolded part below proves that they are implementing the fire code incorrectly against me. Problem is we're dealing with humans here. If I just walk in and show this to their subject matter expert, they aren't just going to say "hey you're right, we'll approve your plans right now". Their ego is going to push back on this because I'm essentially saying "you're wrong and I'm right". I need to find a tactful way of going about this when I go in there next week.

So far not a single geological engineering company will sign off on compaction testing certifying the dirt for 75k lbs. At minimum they want a compacted 4" gravel driveway put in and a couple companies want 10" of compacted gravel before they'll do the test.

Here's what I found on their code appendix page:

Driveways
Driveways for access to one- and two-family dwellings, shall conform to the following criteria as applicable:
1. Driveways serving one parcel with no more than five structures shall be a minimum of twelve (12) feet in width. The chief may require up to a twenty (20) foot wide driveway when more than five structures exist.
2. Roadways serving more than one parcel, but less than five parcels, shall be a minimum twenty (20) feet in width. Roadways serving five parcels or more shall be no less than 24 feet in width.
3. Vertical clearance shall be a minimum of fifteen (15) feet.
4. When the driveway exceeds 150 feet in length, provide a turnout at the midpoint. For driveways not exceeding 400 feet in length, the turnout may be omitted if full sight distance is maintained. If the driveway exceeds 800 feet in length, turnouts shall be no more than 400 feet apart.
5. When a driveway exceeds 300 feet in length, a turnaround shall be provided no greater than 50 feet from the structure.
6. The driveway must be provided with an all-weather surface capable of supporting a 75,000 lb. vehicle loading. When the road grade exceeds ten (10) percent, the road shall be surfaced with asphalt or concrete.

It seems to me, the way I read that code, is it shouldn't apply to your shop as long as your shop can't be considered living space. How that gets determined may be part of the issue, I don't know what you've got in your shop (bathroom, etc) that could allow it to be considered living space.

Again, I would figure out a way to have a sit down with the fire inspector that's requiring the 75k lb loading. I could understand having to now meet that requirement for your house, because you're pulling the permit for your shop and it probably meets the threshold to meet modern code vs when your house was built. But unless there's something else as far as requirements go it shouldn't be necessary all the way back to your shop. Again, that's just based on the section you posted.

I would approach it not from a "you're wrong" standpoint, but just ask why it is that the requirement is being applied to the entire driveway vs just the section that allows access to your dwelling.

If I could just sign a waiver that states if my shop goes up in flames, then oh well, I'd do it.

Sure, who wouldn't? But it's not about just your shop going up in flames. Because where you're at, your shop going up in flames could easily start a wildland fire that could have your entire neighborhood go up in flames. Would you like to be on the hook financially for that?

 

[barbee6043]

^^^^If one things doesn't kill me...then something else will!! I learned that over my 76 years on this Earth.

All the rural Mo. (37 years there) house fires I saw were total losses, and like he said, IF you can't get out om your own, you are dead. Just life on the sticks.

Like if a big tornado, kiss it all goodbye.

 

[72bluNblu]

^^^^If one things doesn't kill me...then something else will!! I learned that over my 76 years on this Earth.

All the rural Mo. (37 years there) house fires I saw were total losses, and like he said, IF you can't get out om your own, you are dead. Just life on the sticks.

Like if a big tornado, kiss it all goodbye.

Nobody lives forever, that's for sure. But there are plenty of completely preventable/mitagatable situations that can kill you that could be mitigated by a professional paid fire response that won't be mitigated by many volunteer departments, by no real fault of their own. And whether you like it or not, that level of professional service costs money.

If you don't know the difference in the level of service maybe you don't ever think about it. But I guarantee if you're watching a loved one die, wondering why your volunteer department isn't there yet while knowing for a fact that if you'd been in an area served by a professional department your loved one would already be getting help, you'd probably rather have paid the money for the professionals. I doubt you'd be standing there going "well, them's the breaks".

And yes, if I'm going to run into a burning building to try and save somebody because I got there fast enough that someone inside is still viable I don't want to be maimed/killed because the owner didn't understand that building and fire code exists for a reason, and that reason isn't just to inconvenience them. And sure, yeah, some of those codes have political motivations. But most fire code is there because somebody died. If I'm showing up at 10+ minutes and just putting water on it from the front yard, well, the building construction doesn't much matter anymore because it's already toast anyway. But the money you saved isn't gonna be enough to make up the difference at that point either.

 

[barbee6043]

^^^^WHERE I CAME FROM, THERE ARE NO BLDG. OR FIRE CODES!! Out in rural MO. the only firefighters are volunteers and do what they can do.

 

[Workingdog1]

Nobody lives forever, that's for sure. But there are plenty of completely preventable/mitagatable situations that can kill you that could be mitigated by a professional paid fire response that won't be mitigated by many volunteer departments, by no real fault of their own. And whether you like it or not, that level of professional service costs money.

If you don't know the difference in the level of service maybe you don't ever think about it. But I guarantee if you're watching a loved one die, wondering why your volunteer department isn't there yet while knowing for a fact that if you'd been in an area served by a professional department your loved one would already be getting help, you'd probably rather have paid the money for the professionals. I doubt you'd be standing there going "well, them's the breaks".

And yes, if I'm going to run into a burning building to try and save somebody because I got there fast enough that someone inside is still viable I don't want to be maimed/killed because the owner didn't understand that building and fire code exists for a reason, and that reason isn't just to inconvenience them. And sure, yeah, some of those codes have political motivations. But most fire code is there because somebody died. If I'm showing up at 10+ minutes and just putting water on it from the front yard, well, the building construction doesn't much matter anymore because it's already toast anyway. But the money you saved isn't gonna be enough to make up the difference at that point either.

Exactly, we've had numerous fires where I'm at and the response is unbelievably good. We had a recent small one and helicopters, engines and hand crews knocked it out quickly.
Earlier in the year a car accident on the 2 lane State Highway required Air tankers/retardant, helicopters, engines and hand crews. Evacuation was recommended but not mandatory and luckily the coordination of US Forest Service, BLM, Kern County Fire knocked it down.

Unfortunately the historic town of Havilah was lost this year as the the nature of the fire and smoke negated air support.

The Erskine fire a few years ago took out over 600 homes.

I'd hate to be the screw that was responsible for any damage to OTHER people's property and their taxpayers ***.

 

[CichliDart]

Wow, has this thread turned political. If you notice your posts missing or the whole thread gone don't be surprised.

Which is why I banned political talk on the forums I moderate.

 

[Brooks James]

I'm out in Granite Bay. I had no restrictions but the local fire department required a "Fire Impact fee" of 50 cents per square foot of the shop.
$804 for that...I have yet to see a benefit from that expense.

View attachment 1716305012

Would the *Fire Impact Fee* be the same as the *Bend Over Fee*

 

[Swinger 340]

I'm on an acre and having a metal shop put up in the back of my lot. So far the fire department has been 10x more of a headache than the county. They are requiring a compaction report because to get to my shop you drive on my asphalt driveway, then a 100ft gravel driveway (which is really just gravel on top of the soil, non compacted) and then there's about a 50ft run of dirt after the gravel driveway. Fire department says they want a compaction report on the gravel driveway and dirt to see if it'll hold their 70,000lb trucks.

I'm calling around to get quotes and every geological survey company is saying that they cannot sign off mere dirt alone being good enough to support a 70k truck and that I will need to pave the entire 150ft run...which basically adds another 60-70% of added cost on top of the shop and slab. Definitely not what I budgeted for.

Does anyone have any experience with this? I mean surely not everyone has a paved path all the way back to any and every permitted building in their backyards. It just seems excessive and basically puts an end to my dream of having a shop and the deposit I already put down on the building.

I would think it would be a zoning code, not a fire code. What do they do when there is a fire in the open woods? My experience is a little different. Zoning sited me for not having a dumpster encloser, so I submitted plans for one. Problem was they also wanted a "hard" surface, plants along the driveway (200') and a irrigation system for the plants. I returned to their office and told them, I did not need a dumpster enclosure, because I would keep the dumpster inside the shop and bring it out on pickup day. A week later I was informed by the fire department, that I could not keep a dumpster in my shop, because of flammable items in it. I then told them that there was nothing in the dumpster that was not already in the shop. I got the approval!!!! Don't give in just because someone says so but do resolve the issue before you start getting fines. I once even got a zoning official fired because he had no qualifications to be one. There are lots of ways to win. Do your research.

 

[Swinger 340]

The average fire engine costs close to 1 million dollars now. The average fire truck, with the 100’ aerial ladder needed for fighting many large commercial building fires like some of your shop buildings would be, are closer to 3 million each. A decent sized shop, well involved with fire might easily require 3-5 fire engines, 2 trucks and upwards of 30 firefighters to extinguish.

And of course, it’s not like you’re building shelter. You’re building a shop for your hobby, where you will likely be doing stuff like welding, working with flammable chemicals, storing fuel, tires, and whatever other highly flammable items you can stuff in there. So the risk of fire is much higher than a regular old house and the risks of fighting that fire are exponentially higher.

So you don’t want to pay, because you’re cheap bastards. But I bet if your shop catches fire you probably still want the fire dept to show up and put it out right? And show up fast enough and fight fire aggressively enough to keep that fire out of your home? Your neighbors home? You’d want them to evacuate your family if you or your neighbors weren’t home when that happened right? Of course you do.

I’ve been a professional firefighter for over 20 years. I’ve been burned, broken bones, torn cartilage, had surgery, collapsed from exhaustion, pulled muscles and generally abused my body to save people’s lives, property, etc. I’ve watched several of my coworkers die from cancer, some of whom were younger than me. And watched many more fight cancer despite being young and healthy individuals that don’t have history or risk factors beyond the carcinogens they’re exposed to in this job.

So yeah, building your shop costs some money. And yeah, we got tired of risking our lives fighting fire in some death trap that some moron built cheap in his backyard, so there’s fire code you have to follow so we don’t die because of your stupidity. We don’t get to pick and choose which fires we go to, we go to all of them.

For @ESP47, I would suggest getting ahold of whoever is doing the plan review at South Placer Fire. They should be willing to explain what they need and why, and if there are any exemptions or variances that your particular project might qualify for. A lot of that stuff is required per code based on property size or square footage, so sometimes it pops up on projects that don’t necessarily need some of that stuff for other reasons.

I have fire insurance, let them pay when it burns down. Is that why we have it? Save your water and trucks. Most shops are all metal and concrete anyway. All flammables should be kept outside. It's just another way to keep our money flowing.

 

[Swinger 340]

Would the *Fire Impact Fee* be the same as the *Bend Over Fee*

Mine is $400 a year. It is just a way to raise your property tax, without calling it a tax. The reason I moved to a little town 4 years ago and get away from "BIG BROTHER" cities. Now it is coming here.

 

[Swinger 340]

They don't, not at the level of a professional department with modern equipment.

I was a volunteer in a rural area for several years before I became a professional paid firefighter. To put it simply, we could not meet the NFPA standards for responding to structure fires for the vast majority of our response area. Respond from home, to the fire station to pick up the engine, then respond to the call. Even getting to the fire within 10 minutes would have been good for us in a lot of situations.

At the 10 minute mark, if you didn't get out of your house on your own you're dead. Your home is well involved, and unless multiple engines show up at that time to provide a continuous water supply and multiple hose lines there will be no chance at saving whatever remains of that structure. It will be a foundation scrape. For a medical aid, well, if your heart isn't beating and no one is doing CPR for 10 minutes you're done. I've responded to both as a volunteer, and the timeline just makes it impossible. Yes, most volunteers will get there fast enough to save the neighborhood, but they're not getting there fast enough with enough resources to save you or your home.

Meanwhile, at my paid municipal department, we're getting to 80%+ of our calls in 5 minutes or less. That stove top fire hasn't even left the kitchen, anyone in the house is still doing ok and grandma in the back bedroom in the wheelchair hasn't even noticed yet. A single engine can knock that fire out in a couple minutes. You get out of the whole thing with a kitchen remodel at the worst - instead of a tear down. And if it's a medical aid, and you dropped dead immediately after making the call, well, you're still a viable human being when we start CPR.

The volunteer department I used to work for is now mostly paid professional. They serve the area where I now live again. And yeah, when I built my shop there was a fee for the fire department. And yes, when I pay my property taxes there's a yearly fee for their service. And it's MORE than worth the improvement in the service they provide compared to what I did for them 20+ years ago.



It seems to me, the way I read that code, is it shouldn't apply to your shop as long as your shop can't be considered living space. How that gets determined may be part of the issue, I don't know what you've got in your shop (bathroom, etc) that could allow it to be considered living space.

Again, I would figure out a way to have a sit down with the fire inspector that's requiring the 75k lb loading. I could understand having to now meet that requirement for your house, because you're pulling the permit for your shop and it probably meets the threshold to meet modern code vs when your house was built. But unless there's something else as far as requirements go it shouldn't be necessary all the way back to your shop. Again, that's just based on the section you posted.

I would approach it not from a "you're wrong" standpoint, but just ask why it is that the requirement is being applied to the entire driveway vs just the section that allows access to your dwelling.



Sure, who wouldn't? But it's not about just your shop going up in flames. Because where you're at, your shop going up in flames could easily start a wildland fire that could have your entire neighborhood go up in flames. Would you like to be on the hook financially for that?

Thank you for your service as a fireperson and EMS worker, but I only believe or agree on half what you say. Could of, should of. What if a plane crashes in the woods, lots of homes may be in danger because you can't get to the fire. As in your kitchen fire, I would think people should have a fire extinguisher on all floors of the home including the garage. I have seen small, isolated fires that the fire department destroyed the entire home, kicking in doors, breaking all the windows and cutting holes in the roofs. The water damage is worse than the fire damage. I do agree with you on sitting down with the zoning and fire personal and try to work things out.

 

[Workingdog1]

If you or I have a mortgage we're screwed as banks overall have to protect their bet through insurance.

Taxes are different and structured accordingly.

In my area my neighbor paid off her house/property because she could. Bingo bongo no insurance required.

 

[66fyssh]

Speaking of zoning. How about this one for taking money out of our pockets!

I'm putting a wooden 10 x 12 garden shed in the backyard of the house we recently bought when we moved to Florida. The county requires a "permit exemption" that costs $65. I kid you not!! Crooks!

 

[72bluNblu]

Would the *Fire Impact Fee* be the same as the *Bend Over Fee*

Mine is $400 a year. It is just a way to raise your property tax, without calling it a tax. The reason I moved to a little town 4 years ago and get away from "BIG BROTHER" cities. Now it is coming here.

No, it would not be the same, as it should be going directly to the local fire service. It's not just a fee for the sake of a fee, it's providing you with a level of service. Obviously it's different in different states/counties/etc, but typically if a fee like that is added yearly to your property tax it went to a vote and was approved by the voters in your area. That's how it works here anyway. The fire protection fee here was recently increased, it was a measure on last years ballot with the fire district being very upfront about what it was paying for. And again, as someone that used to be a volunteer in my area, I know for a fact that the level of service now provided is leaps and bounds above what it was before. Staffing, equipment and training all cost money, better service requires more money.

I would think it would be a zoning code, not a fire code. What do they do when there is a fire in the open woods? My experience is a little different. Zoning sited me for not having a dumpster encloser, so I submitted plans for one. Problem was they also wanted a "hard" surface, plants along the driveway (200') and an irrigation system for the plants. I returned to their office and told them, I did not need a dumpster enclosure, because I would keep the dumpster inside the shop and bring it out on pickup day. A week later I was informed by the fire department, that I could not keep a dumpster in my shop, because of flammable items in it. I then told them that there was nothing in the dumpster that was not already in the shop. I got the approval!!!! Don't give in just because someone says so but do resolve the issue before you start getting fines. I once even got a zoning official fired because he had no qualifications to be one. There are lots of ways to win. Do your research.

Here it would be building and fire code. Different in different areas.

If there's a fire in the woods, we respond there. Departments that serve "open woods" should have equipment to access those areas and fight that type of fire. We do.

I have fire insurance, let them pay when it burns down. Is that why we have it? Save your water and trucks. Most shops are all metal and concrete anyway. All flammables should be kept outside. It's just another way to keep our money flowing.

Best of luck. Hopefully your insurance never finds out you're storing a dumpster inside, because I'm sure they'd not pay out over less. Flammables should be stored appropriately, "outside" is usually not that. Metal buildings still catch fire- the contents inside them usually burn just fine and the temperatures reached will ultimately destroy the structure if left unchecked.

Thank you for your service as a fireperson and EMS worker, but I only believe or agree on half what you say. Could have, should have. What if a plane crashes in the woods, lots of homes may be in danger because you can't get to the fire. As in your kitchen fire, I would think people should have a fire extinguisher on all floors of the home including the garage.

Again, if there's a plane crash in the woods then we respond there with our wildland equipment. And possibly helicopters, bulldozers and air tankers if necessary, in addition to boots on the ground. Heck the Forest Service has smoke jumpers that will parachute in if necessary. "Can't get there" isn't usually a thing for the fire service here in California.

Clearly you've been fortunate enough not to know very much about fire. I've responded to many structure fires, car fires, etc where there are multiple used, empty extinguishers on scene, used by bystanders before we got there. They're absolutely great to have (I have several of them in my house, garage, shop) but that doesn't mean they solve all problems.

I have seen small, isolated fires that the fire department destroyed the entire home, kicking in doors, breaking all the windows and cutting holes in the roofs. The water damage is worse than the fire damage. I do agree with you on sitting down with the zoning and fire personal and try to work things out.

Again, it's pretty clear you're not very well versed in modern fire fighting techniques, and I don't have the time or desire to train you to be a firefighter here on this forum. Yes, I know that firefighters aren't perfect, and I have certainly been on fires where the fire suppression efforts caused additional damage beyond what the fire caused or would have caused.

But that's why professional training (which costs money) is important. All of those techniques- kicking in the door, cutting holes in the roof, etc are used to mitigate the spread of the fire. Done properly they should limit the spread of the fire dramatically, which means the damage caused by the technique should be more than offset by stopping the fire sooner. Breaking all the windows, if it was done by the fire department, is a strong indication of a lack of training.

Those "small, isolated fires" may very well have stayed small BECAUSE of the things the fire department did. Again, I'm not saying that's always the case, it isn't. But if those techniques were necessary and were used properly and the fire department was successful, there was a house with a hole in the roof instead of a bare scraped slab. The latter costs more money to fix.

 

[Jim Lusk]

Speaking of zoning. How about this one for taking money out of our pockets!

I'm putting a wooden 10 x 12 garden shed in the backyard of the house we recently bought when we moved to Florida. The county requires a "permit exemption" that costs $65. I kid you not!! Crooks!

Around here, anything 120 sq ft or smaller requires no city notification. A neighbor might call on a structure and code enforcement might come out with a tape measure, but that's where it ends.