Question about 904 tranny kickdown band adjustment

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zookgumby

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Hi all,
I have a 1965 dodge dart gt with a rebuilt upgraded 318 and rebuilt 904 tranny. I got the car partially finished and had to install adjust, or repair just about anything to do with the operating controls, including installing an NOS shift cable, a Bouchillon kickdown cable kit, and the correct carb (edelbrock) linkage setup. The early a body leaves very little room to get to the area of the tranny where the kickdown band adjustment is located - as a matter of fact, I had to modify the Bouchillon setup to get it to fit (invert the lever ball, fabricate a shorter height cable end assemby). My question is this; the tranny shifts fine, but will not kickdown into second when the throttle is wide open, and yes, the butterflys are full open. The kickdown cable is correctly installed also. When I want to get into second I simple use the console shifter to downshift and all is good...all shift points are fine and no slipping that I can detect. Can I leave the kickdown adjustment where it is, or should I do a ton of work and tear up my arms more to get to it? What to you guys think?
Thanks,
Tom
 
oldkimmer said:
Is the trans lever all the way back when the carb is wide open? Did u verify this with a helper?
Click to expand...
Yes, I blocked the gas pedal full open and checked it. I read one person's reply to another thread on this subject that asserted the kickdown band adjustment could affect shift points. Does anyone know if the adjustment can affect whether or not it will downshift at full throttle? That will help me troubleshoot the issue.
 
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You need to get to the bottom of that, because the KD mechanism pulls double-duty by increasing the line pressure as the throttle is opened, to prevent clutch/band slippage.
It is possible for the internal lever to drop down under the pressure valve, and then it does nothing, and soon your trans pays the price.
Disconnect the lever from whatever controls it, and then push it towards the rear of the car. If you feel spring pressure, and the lever returns to rest, about half-way to the front, then it's practically guaranteed that the parts are in the correct orientation.
If you can't get the KD to work correctly, then Zip-tie it all the way to the back, until you figure it out. This tie-back should delay the upshifts considerably, and make them more harsh. If you can't stand it, put a lil slack in the Zip-tie but don't floor it any more, maybe disconnect the Secondaries.
Then figure out what's wrong with your shift cable.
Be advised that if you have changed the rear-end ratio, to something more sporty, your automatic-shifts may occur too early. If this happens to you, the proper solution is to install a lighter flyweight in the governor. Fine tuning is with springs. The governor is in the tail. Dialing it in is well worth the trouble of doing it.
 
AJ/FormS said:
You need to get to the bottom of that, because the KD mechanism pulls double-duty by increasing the line pressure as the throttle is opened, to prevent clutch/band slippage.
It is possible for the internal lever to drop down under the pressure valve, and then it does nothing, and soon your trans pays the price.
Disconnect the lever from whatever controls it, and then push it towards the rear of the car. If you feel spring pressure, and the lever returns to rest, about half-way to the front, then it's practically guaranteed that the parts are in the correct orientation.
If you can't get the KD to work correctly, then Zip-tie it all the way to the back, until you figure it out. This tie-back should delay the upshifts considerably, and make them more harsh. If you can't stand it, put a lil slack in the Zip-tie but don't floor it any more, maybe disconnect the Secondaries.
Then figure out what's wrong with your shift cable.
Be advised that if you have changed the rear-end ratio, to something more sporty, your automatic-shifts may occur too early. If this happens to you, the proper solution is to install a lighter flyweight in the governor. Fine tuning is with springs. The governor is in the tail. Dialing it in is well worth the trouble of doing it.
Click to expand...
Thanks, yes the KD lever has spring loading and returns to about center. This was verified when I installed the Bouchillon kit. The kit also provided a small spring to hold the lever in a forward position at a low throttle position. The rear-end ratio appears to be stock. As I noted earlier, there is no noticeable slippage - when I first got the car, the old mechanical linkage (wouldn't work with higher manifold) was disconnected and I did notice slippage from second to third one time, that's why I went to trying cable systems which finally resulted in the Bouchillon kit with it's different lever design.
 
It's finicky, and especially with a non-stock (and modified, at that) kickdown cable. Added to that is the fact that '65 904 transmission valve bodies do not have part-throttle kickdown, and it becomes an all-or-nothing situation; either it's right or it's not. And the consequences are severe if it's not.
Me? I'd place a parts wanted ad here and try to get the correct kickdown linkage for your car, then adjust it according to your FSM (you do have one, right? And I don't mean a Chilton/Motor/Haynes manual either- get the honest to goodness Chrysler FSM).
 
zookgumby said:
Yes, I blocked the gas pedal full open and checked it. I read one person's reply to another thread on this subject that asserted the kickdown band adjustment could affect shift points. Does anyone know if the adjustment can affect whether or not it will downshift at full throttle? That will help me troubleshoot the issue.
Click to expand...
Good. So then the kd lever is all the way back also. The band would really have to be out of adjustment. Kim
 
Professor Fate said:
It's finicky, and especially with a non-stock (and modified, at that) kickdown cable. Added to that is the fact that '65 904 transmission valve bodies do not have part-throttle kickdown, and it becomes an all-or-nothing situation; either it's right or it's not. And the consequences are severe if it's not.
Me? I'd place a parts wanted ad here and try to get the correct kickdown linkage for your car, then adjust it according to your FSM (you do have one, right? And I don't mean a Chilton/Motor/Haynes manual either- get the honest to goodness Chrysler FSM).
Click to expand...
I have the correct kickdown linkage, unfortunately it won't work the the higher aluminum four barrel intake manifold, and modifying it by extending it would put me right back into the realm of uncertainty. I'm not worried about damage to the transmission, if there is no slippage and the shift points are correct, it is probable that the Bouchillon cable is doing the job of providing proper pressure... the previous (cheaper) cable system I installed did not provide the correct pressure and it was obvious, with errant shift points. I do have the FSM.
 
zookgumby said:
Thanks, yes the KD lever has spring loading and returns to about center. This was verified when I installed the Bouchillon kit. The kit also provided a small spring to hold the lever in a forward position at a low throttle position. The rear-end ratio appears to be stock. As I noted earlier, there is no noticeable slippage - when I first got the car, the old mechanical linkage (wouldn't work with higher manifold) was disconnected and I did notice slippage from second to third one time, that's why I went to trying cable systems which finally resulted in the Bouchillon kit with it's different lever design.
Click to expand...
Go back to the factory linkage. When you say "wouldn't work with higher manifold", I'll assume that means that you converted to a 4bbl. from a 2bbl. A 4bbl. locates the throttle linkage further forward compared to a 2bbl., so you need to lengthen the kickdown rod a bit (about 1 1/2" IIRC). The 4bbl. is also wider than a 2bbl., so the rod also has to be modified where it attaches to the bellcrank at the rear of the engine in order to maintain correct alignment. Make sure you attach the linkage to the carburetor in exactly the same location as it was on the 2bbl. lever so you maintain the correct ratio of lever movement- it is quite different than later kickdown linkages.
 
oldkimmer said:
Good. So then the kd lever is all the way back also. The band would really have to be out of adjustment. Kim
Click to expand...
Thanks! I'll just have to suck it up and get it done. This car wasn't finished (I was told the owner had passed) so the tranny issues due to poor or lack of adjustment has been a major issue so far, but it's almost there.
Tom
 
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Professor Fate said:
'65 904 transmission valve bodies do not have part-throttle kickdown,
Click to expand...

Yup, earlier models don't have the part-time module. I don't remember the year it was added. When I did my swap from a 273 to the 5.9, I needed the larger snout for the torque converter and bought a 1973 A904 from Roy (RIP).
 
Professor Fate said:
Go back to the factory linkage. When you say "wouldn't work with higher manifold", I'll assume that means that you converted to a 4bbl. from a 2bbl. A 4bbl. locates the throttle linkage further forward compared to a 2bbl., so you need to lengthen the kickdown rod a bit (about 1 1/2" IIRC). The 4bbl. is also wider than a 2bbl., so the rod also has to be modified where it attaches to the bellcrank at the rear of the engine in order to maintain correct alignment. Make sure you attach the linkage to the carburetor in exactly the same location as it was on the 2bbl. lever so you maintain the correct ratio of lever movement- it is quite different than later kickdown linkages.
Click to expand...
I didn't convert from a 2bbl. I bought the car with a built engine with the edelbrock 4bbl. I don't have sufficient information to take on modifying the rod system, at least before I try the alternative solutions.
Thanks,
Tom
 
Can you post a couple of pictures of your linkage? It might help give us an idea of what might be happening.
 
66fyssh said:
Can you post a couple of pictures of your linkage? It might help give us an idea of what might be happening.
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The linkage is in a box, LOL. I went to a cable system as noted earlier - after trying a Lokar system, I installed the fairly expensive Bouchillon kit which is considered by many to be the best design - and based on the tranny operation, other than the current auto kick down issue, I think it is the ticket. If I can isolate the kd problem, I'll be happy.
 
Post up a picture of your current setup. We may see something that could help.
 
Hey guys,
Thanks for all your help, but I found the problem and it wasn't the tranny setup. The elelbrock carb has no less than two adapter throttle linkage plates, the first being the edelbrock adapter for the Mopar throttle design, and a second being an adapter for the Bouchillon tranny lever which attaches to the first one. A bolt had worked loose between the two which allowed too much play from the throttle shaft to the cable preventing full movement.
Thanks again
Tom
 
Yeah; that's something, that without a picture, I don't think anyone here would ever have thought of.
But since we are this far, I'd still like to see how your throttle cable is engineered; cuz in my experience, a factory 2bbl throttle cable, will not index properly with a 4bbl carb, on either intake bracket.
 
AJ/FormS said:
Yeah; that's something, that without a picture, I don't think anyone here would ever have thought of.
But since we are this far, I'd still like to see how your throttle cable is engineered; cuz in my experience, a factory 2bbl throttle cable, will not index properly with a 4bbl carb, on either intake bracket.
Click to expand...
Here's the setup. As you will note, the throttle cable clamp lines up nicely with the throttle cable location, and the whole bracket is bolted to the rear-drivers side carb stud/nut. The lower spring offsets (with tension) the additional cable drag the cable and KD lever resistance that made the pedal too stiff. That spring is in tension only for the initial pedal travel so the pedal feel is typical. I had made a similar bracket for the first KD cable I installed but it didn't have the range of adjustment that this bracket has (part of the Bouchillon kit).

IMG_3897.JPG


IMG_3898.JPG
 
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Your problem is not the band adjustment, if 2nd gear works the way it should. It can only be a throttle pressure issue.
 
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