Re using cast iron rings?

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pittsburghracer said:
Mmmmm torque plates. In my almost 47 years of racing I’ve had one block (my R3 block) that has ever had a torque plate bolted to it. And I think I’ve had some pretty good running engines.
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What ever works for you. I have a stack of torque plates, some I have had made. My engines run fine and last forever. My small block plates came from Ed Hamburger, but what did he know. That was a determinate on who got my work. If they didn't have plates I moved on.
 
replicaracer43 said:
My experience has been that if you check, say, 10 random 360 blocks, you might normally find 2 that show some level of distortion with the plate bolted on. How much is another discussion. Now, certain blocks from other manufacturers can be more or less sensitive too it also. But as a guy that gets paid to use them, I typically only do it if the customer requests it. Take that for what its worth.
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Back many many years ago during my big block years I was one of three that went together and bought a torque plate. I ran my blocks for years back then so the only block I ever had done with it was on the 440 I built for my Dads motorhome. The one other party was a ford guy but he owned the machine shop that did our machine work. My other buddy still races big blocks in Stock Class. I think I know who ended up with the plate but that’s old history. I was told my R3 block had one on it when it was bored before I owned it. When and if I ever get my Molnar rods it will be getting brush honed by me.
 
pittsburghracer said:
Back many many years ago during my big block years I was one of three that went together and bought a torque plate. I ran my blocks for years back then so the only block I ever had done with it was on the 440 I built for my Dads motorhome. The one other party was a ford guy but he owned the machine shop that did our machine work. My other buddy still races big blocks in Stock Class. I think I know who ended up with the plate but that’s old history. I was told my R3 block had one on it when it was bored before I owned it. When and if I ever get my Molnar rods it will be getting brush honed by me.
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I personally think it's kinda of a personal choice, is it better with a plate? (Maybe) (possibly) (maybe not) I do know and have personally seen blocks bored and honed WITH a plate, that were worse than I normally end up with on a regular old rebuild. So its probably as much the operator as the equipment. But you know all the magazines said you had to have a torque plate so....
 
replicaracer43 said:
I personally think it's kinda of a personal choice, is it better with a plate? (Maybe) (possibly) (maybe not) I do know and have personally seen blocks bored and honed WITH a plate, that were worse than I normally end up with on a regular old rebuild. So its probably as much the operator as the equipment. But you know all the magazines said you had to have a torque plate so....
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On my third rebuild on my old 408 I drug my feet for some reason getting my block cleaned up and ready to build. It was going back at .030 for the third time. When I started brush honing my block with transmission fluid like always I was seeing shadows. I stopped and grabbed my finger hone and wholly crap those bores had more dips than the roads in Pa come Springtime. I wore out two sets of stones getting it somewhat cleaned up, then brush honed it. I ended up running 9.60’s with that engine and when I pulled it for it’s fourth and final rebuild my son needed an engine so he borrowed it and ran 10.10@3200 pounds in his car. It eventually grabbed a bearing and broke a rod but I knew we were pushing our luck running it another year. What are you going to do when your kid needs help.
 
Princess Valiant said:
So I'm not going to mention which youtuber said it because I'm not throwing dirt at anyone but I recently watched a video and it was mentioned that you can more often than not, reuse your old cast iron rings.

This actually makes sense in certain conditions like my 318 engine. It was running, I junked the car around it and now I'm cleaning it up for re use in another car.

I am going to hone but the aforementioned video also recommended honing but reusing the cast rings and only after a good inspection and if they appear square to the bore, as verified by a test with light.

Is this an old timers trick that really works or
should I stop watching YouTube?
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You can reuse anything in the engine that specs out to within limits.
Those old ring may have lost a little tension!!!! OOHH, that sounds like a friction loss - HP gain to me LOL!!!
 
replicaracer43 said:
I personally think it's kinda of a personal choice, is it better with a plate? (Maybe) (possibly) (maybe not) I do know and have personally seen blocks bored and honed WITH a plate, that were worse than I normally end up with on a regular old rebuild. So its probably as much the operator as the equipment. But you know all the magazines said you had to have a torque plate so....
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Well if someone wants to post up some data with plates VS no plate, then I'm all ears..
 
The t/plate benefit is going to be greatest on engines like the SB Chebby that has bolt holes close to the bore & open to the water jacket.
 
Someone did a torque plate comparison with pics, maybe Hot Rod. It did make a difference, you could see the pattern for the bolt boss in the bore. Can't remember what the distortion amount was - .0005"? Maybe? How much leakage does that work out to?
 
RustyRatRod said:
Cheap as rings are, I wouldn't, but go for it. Sounds like you're sold.
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I USED CAST RINGS BUT NEVER AGAIN THAT WAS OK& WORKED BUT IT USED OIL ALL THE TIME I BUILT MY LST MOTOR & PUT IN MOLLY STEEL RINGDS I LOVE TEM THEY R NOT THAT HIGH SEAT FAST & R GREAT RINGS NO OIL USEAGE I GOT20 K ON THE MOTOR
 
oldkimmer said:
I it is not an old timers trick. So u have heard the saying do it right or don’t do it at all. It’s a lot of work to go thru having to do it over again. I only ever have time to do it right and not over again. So far that has worked for me for about 50 years. I think ur gonna have an oil sucking pig that can’t get out of its own way. So are u probably use the old bearings and oil pump along with the timing chain and gaskets. Kim
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IMHO as a licensed mechanic, I would put new rings in. I would also consider the upgrade to moly rings. Lightly hone the bores to deglaze them without removing much cylinder wall.
Now the bearings and oil pump are a different matter. On heavy diesels we did beating rolls at 250,000 miles. The heavy hammering the bearings get in those engines, especially the old mechanical injection, fatigues the bearings from comptessive loads. Eventually they turn to small particles like sand. The difference between a running engine and a major overhaul out of the frame was minimal miles. But that is heavy diesels.
For automotive, when dismantling the engine, inspect the bearings closely. You are looking for signs of the silver appearing bearing layer having ateas that are a darker color indicating wear. A spot on the bearing could be a particle of dirt or a metal fragment embedded in the bearing or under the bearing. Sometimes wear will syart at the side of a bearing where the major load is. This continues as the bearing clearance increases and oil film is lost. Eventually the bearings will be copper all around. Bearings can have scratches all around, generally aligned with the oil supply holes. The crankshaft or camshaft will likely be scratched as well. Any of these observations dictate bearing replacement, crankshaft pish or grind and complete engine disassembly with all pligs removed to thourghly clean the oil passages. If the bearings look good and are put back in the same position they came from, they can be reused, providing the clearances are in spec.
Oil.pumps. Now this will wind a bunch up. Take the oil pump apart for close inspection and measuring clearances. Use a brass scriber to mark the cover ends of the gears and gear indexing on the roots style pumps. Minor wear marks are acceptable. As long as there are no scratches that catch your finger nail indicating junk has gone through it is OK to reuse. Just do not turn a gear over during assembly. Oil pumps get replaced as a matter of habit during many refresh jobs when not necessary. A lot of times an engine with even compression within tolerances, but low oil pressure at warm idle have the oil pump blamed. Most times there is no problem with the pump, but the main and rod bearings are worn to copper, top and bottom shells. 400 Fords were bad for this due to a poor oil system design. 100,000 miles was about when this showed up. Roll .001 undersize bearings in on the mains and rods. Use a piece of cardboard from the bearing boxes in the 2 and 4 caps to plastigage clearances on 1, 3 and 5. Do not torque the 2 and 4 cap bolts doing this. Just snug with a speed handle or index and bird finger on either side of the socket and ratchet. With odd bearings checked, move the cardboard to 1 and 5 to verify 2 and 4. Now a small smear of sealant can be put on the rear cap. Just snug bolts and move the crank back and forth to center the thrust cap. May be #3 on many engines. The rubber rear oil seal can be rolled in during the bearing roll with the 3 and 4 caps loose and 5 off.
Most of the small block engines timing chains can be checked for stretch with the oil pan off ussing a long screw driver. Now is the time to replace a worn timing chain, before reinstalling the oil pan.
Now with new bearings on the tighter side of the clearance limits and new seals, the engine is likely good for another 75k to 100k miles of fairly troublefree driving. A compression or leakdown test to verify acceptable ring and valve seal prior to undertaking this is a wise time saver.
 
Garrett Ellison said:
I'm in the new ring club, too. If you want to compare, get a fish scale and pull a piston through the bore with the old rings on and then install new rings on the pistons and repeat. You should see more resistance with new rings from tension with a new set. Ring tension is pretty important for a street engine.
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To a point ring tension is a factor. You can not rely on a specified # of pounds without knowing ring width. Ring tension has as much or more to do with oil control as compression seal. Low tension rings need the main and rod clearances tightened to prevent exess oil on the cylinder walls that the oil and second compression ring are not able to control.
New BMWs and some others have oil consumption issues on new cars. Like a quart in less than 500 miles. I would be really pissed if I had to put a quart in every 500 miles, in a car that costs $50,000+. In the '60's, Ford service required less than 800 miles to a quart, and that was with chrome rings that generally took up to 20k miles to fully break in. The cylinder finish was rough to aid breakin, so oil consumption during that time could be high until the cylinder walls got smoothed out. These new ring materials and cylinder finishes almost negate breakin as us old geezers were accustomed to.
 
JBurch said:
I'll get killed for this, I say go for it. Learn something, the acquisition of knowledge is not with out effort; when done you will know with certainty if it can be done. As already stated put the rings back in the same hole they came out of, think "how does a ring know it came out of it's cylinder?"

Food for thought........years ago in "Car Craft" magazine, Jon Kasse (sp?) did a test of what makes more power, Hemi or wedge, he used a 460 Ford as his base because it can mount Hemi or wedge heads; when he switched from wedge heads to Hemi, he had to change pistons due to chamber shape, he moved rings from the wedge pistons to the Hemi pistons also. Love , hate Kasse (sp?) if you like, I think he has won more Engine Masters than any one posting on this board ( I could be wrong ) so I would think he knows something.

BTW the Hemi made more power
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Wellll, a huge difference between a dyno engine with unmeasureable wear on the cylinder walls and an older driver.
 
dano said:
Have you disassembled the engine yet? A lot of time with older higher mileage engines there is a bore ridge and when removing the pistons it will damage the rings and sometimes the pistons.

Lets start all over. What is you intent or goal with the 318?
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Ridge reamer B4 piston removal!!
 
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