Rocker Arm help

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Notice nobody else has suggested raising the shaft? Hmm. It certainly wouldn't be because you are the sharpest knife in the drawer & got it right...
I mentioned that in post #8. I thought if the open valve tip is under the CL of the rocker shaft (hard to tell) raising the shaft would cause the rocker to arc more to attain the same lift, causing the roller tip to contact more toward the center of the valve stem.....wrong? Maybe that would assume the valve was at a different angle.
 
Great, that makes sense. The way it was being described just didn't jive.

Does it seem like the width is consistent on each head (Like they're doing two passes, but they're doing the saddles in one operation) or is there inconsistency between saddles on the same head?

Would a check with a radius gauge be sufficient, or does it require a "feel" check with a shaft?
The saddles seem to be consistent, in a bad way. In a production machining environment, a pass would be made across the saddles from one end of the head to the other, and then a stepover and a return pass back to the starting point. Why they don't use a 7/8" ball mill and make one single pass defies logic.

A radius gauge may fit reasonably well after the heads have been run awhile, because the high spot will have flattened out. But, any light under the gauge means the radius is not true, and the contact area between the shaft and the saddle is reduced.
 
318 stroker build
Almost forgot, here is a picture of the issue, although it's hard to photograph on a phone, but you can see the gap around the rocker shaft if you look close. People are running these heads this way, but it puts a lot of stress on the hold down bolts, and they can break from the fatigue of flexing around, especially with bigger spring loads and aggressive camshaft profiles

View attachment 1715760880

Yes, the saddles are incorrectly machined on the speedmaster heads, I've mentioned it numerous times on this site, to the sound of crickets.
 
The saddles seem to be consistent, in a bad way. In a production machining environment, a pass would be made across the saddles from one end of the head to the other, and then a stepover and a return pass back to the starting point. Why they don't use a 7/8" ball mill and make one single pass defies logic.

A radius gauge may fit reasonably well after the heads have been run awhile, because the high spot will have flattened out. But, any light under the gauge means the radius is not true, and the contact area between the shaft and the saddle is reduced.

I'm sure it has something to do with the availability of 19mm end mills vs 7/8. But yes, a single path, no step over, with a 7/8 is the only thing that makes sense.

I'll be sure to keep an eye on mine, and if I find anything loose I'll take pictures when I pull the rockers.
 
Pishta,
Let me preface this before I specifically answer your question [ post # 76 ]. All of my posts in this thread are in reply to the original post, #1, where the OP refers to the 'terrible geometry', where he specifically refers to the roller tip coming too close to the valve tip, exh side, at max lift. A rocker has two parts, prod side & valve side, & both affect geometry, max lift. Since this rocker is too long to start with, fixing the problem that concerns the OP, no matter what the 'fix', will almost certainly result in reduced lift, bad prod angle, or something else that is less than optimal.

The picture in post #1 are not great, but you can see enough to see the problem.
The rocker needs to go down, not up. With the valve on the seat, you have to look at the line from the roller contact point [ NOT the roller pivot, a common mistake made by many ] to the centre of the rocker pivot mechanism; in this case, the shaft centre. Now imagine a line up the centre of the valve stem. You can see that where these two lines intersect, the angle is less than 90*. If the rocker is lifted, it moves the roller tip contact even further towards the exh side, the opposite direction it actually needs to go. If this was done, the roller tip comes close to running off the edge of the valve at full lift.
If by some means [ correction kit? ] the rocker is raised AND moved towards the intake side, the above mentioned angle becomes greater, maybe over 90*. This might centre the roller better on the valve tip, but then causes another problem: loss of lift & a severe angle of the rocker at max lift. The prod side of the rocker is also affected & may result in severe prod angle at max lift.
 
The saddles seem to be consistent, in a bad way. In a production machining environment, a pass would be made across the saddles from one end of the head to the other, and then a stepover and a return pass back to the starting point. Why they don't use a 7/8" ball mill and make one single pass defies logic.

A radius gauge may fit reasonably well after the heads have been run awhile, because the high spot will have flattened out. But, any light under the gauge means the radius is not true, and the contact area between the shaft and the saddle is reduced.
Coming from a tool and die making environment making plastic injection molds and precision manufacturing fixtures for 25 years, machining an arc like this with a single pass with specific sized tool is not the way to it. A single pass with a large cutter will typically result in a poor finish from chatter, rapid tool wear, and material tearing. You will also likely have issues from tool deflection.

I cant say for sure exactly how Speedmaster is doing this and I am not saying that there isn't issues with them. I am saying in a production and precisions machining environment as well a smaller ball mill with the shape being interpolated (3D cutter path) with a highspeed machine will yield the best results for precision, finish, and manufacturability. This will lead to much better tool life, and better consistency across the board.
 
Coming from a tool and die making environment making plastic injection molds and precision manufacturing fixtures for 25 years, machining an arc like this with a single pass with specific sized tool is not the way to it. A single pass with a large cutter will typically result in a poor finish from chatter, rapid tool wear, and material tearing. You will also likely have issues from tool deflection.

I cant say for sure exactly how Speedmaster is doing this and I am not saying that there isn't issues with them. I am saying in a production and precisions machining environment as well a smaller ball mill with the shape being interpolated (3D cutter path) with a highspeed machine will yield the best results for precision, finish, and manufacturability. This will lead to much better tool life, and better consistency across the board.
I agree, and when I said a single pass, I was referring to no stepover. I have a CNC machining and programming background myself, and a second spring cut would be needed to give a nice consistent finish. Interpolation will work, but they aren't going to make 20 passes on one stand to make the correct radius with a smaller tool. It just isn't practical, or cost effective.
 
Speedmaster 190 CNC head. The shaft is from Comp. You can see the large gap Mike is referring to on this set. This out of the box, nothing done to them.
B70CF2E8-B180-42CC-A4C4-293B98989757.jpeg
 
Hey Mike, is there any way you can change the bottom radius on the shim to match the head and have the top radius match the shaft? Just spitballing. That’s horrible.
 
Dang. That’s garbage.
Hard to photograph but if I center the shaft there is a decent size gap on both sides.
I just checked bare non-CNC castings and they seam to be correct profile, as the shaft sits perfectly in there with no gap.
Now I need to find out if it’s cheaper or better to cut the correct radius or mill the stands off and use blocks for this one. No funds to worry about it now.
 
I think everyone agrees that the Promaxx, Sidewinder and Speedmaster heads are the same castings. Wonder if there are promaxx and Sidewinder heads with the same problem...
 
I agree, and when I said a single pass, I was referring to no stepover. I have a CNC machining and programming background myself, and a second spring cut would be needed to give a nice consistent finish. Interpolation will work, but they aren't going to make 20 passes on one stand to make the correct radius with a smaller tool. It just isn't practical, or cost effective.


The time would be very similar. With a highspeed machining center you can make 20 or more passes with a proper constant chip load that wont wear the tool as quickly, chatter or rub like a large cutter in the same amount of time with more precision and adjustability. In addition to the adjustability the cost of the smaller cutter is much less. Precision carbide cutters aren't cheap, constant chip load is the key to optimum cutter life. With a full size tool using single roughing pass and spring pass process your only option to adjust the size would be a new cutter. Not to mention the high likelihood of deflection on the roughing pass.

The optimum way to finish the saddle may be to develop a process to bore or hone the saddles from a rotating axis through the center of radius being cut. I am just not sure the gain would justify the challenges, cost and risks associated with a process like that.
 
Hey Mike, is there any way you can change the bottom radius on the shim to match the head and have the top radius match the shaft? Just spitballing. That’s horrible.
Not really. It isn't a true radius. It's actually a double radius from the smaller ball mill making two passes with a stepover. Be tough to recreate, especially considering they can be different from head to head. It's easier to just re-machine the stands to the correct radius and be done with it.
 
I think everyone agrees that the Promaxx, Sidewinder and Speedmaster heads are the same castings. Wonder if there are promaxx and Sidewinder heads with the same problem...
I have a set of ProMaxx here now, and they are machined differently. That doesn't mean they can't have some QC concerns as well in other areas.
 
Not really. It isn't a true radius. It's actually a double radius from the smaller ball mill making two passes with a stepover. Be tough to recreate, especially considering they can be different from head to head. It's easier to just re-machine the stands to the correct radius and be done with it.

So, considering the uncertainty. What's your thoughts on the best choice? Remachine the radius or take the stands off entirely and use a set of w2 race head type stands?
 
The time would be very similar. With a highspeed machining center you can make 20 or more passes with a proper constant chip load that wont wear the tool as quickly, chatter or rub like a large cutter in the same amount of time with more precision and adjustability. In addition to the adjustability the cost of the smaller cutter is much less. Precision carbide cutters aren't cheap, constant chip load is the key to optimum cutter life. With a full size tool using single roughing pass and spring pass process your only option to adjust the size would be a new cutter. Not to mention the high likelihood of deflection on the roughing pass.

The optimum way to finish the saddle may be to develop a process to bore or hone the saddles from a rotating axis through the center of radius being cut. I am just not sure the gain would justify the challenges, cost and risks associated with a process like that.
How are you positioning the head to do that. If the head is mounted longitudinally in the X axis, the how can you interpolate a radius in the Y axis, using a G02 or G03 interpolation in the Z axis, without at least 20 interpolations per stand? That is figuring on a 1 inch wide stand with a .050" stepover per interpolation, which still won't give that great of a finish, imho. And, it's going to take the same amount of time????? Maybe I can learn something new here, and hopefully I can.

Also, if an approximately .150" deep roughing cut, in aluminum, is deflecting a 7/8" ball mill, in a modern CNC, something is wrong. And then there is a .020" spring pass to clean it up. It better not deflect there, even with a dulling cutter, And, you have modern coolants/lubricants to maximize tool wear, and provide a great finish. I find it hard to think an interpolation is the way to go. But, I'm sure I'm missing some considerations, so if I can learn a new, better way, I'm the better for it.

As a side note, I used to machine ball bearing bores in racing manual transmissions and was not allowed to interpolate those bores. If caught doing that, I was assured I would be shown the door. We could only cut them with a boring head. The reason was because interpolation still uses a point-to-point toolpath, and is not a true radius like could be achieved by using a boring head. The trans were built for NASCAR, so it had to be some of the most nit-picky stuff I have ever seen short of the aerospace industry and NASA.
 
So, considering the uncertainty. What's your thoughts on the best choice? Remachine the radius or take the stands off entirely and use a set of w2 race head type stands?
Either way works, but with the removeable stands, it still isn't a one size fits all approach. They still have to be made for your specific engine's requirements (height and offset), just like the bolt on kits.
 
How are you positioning the head to do that. If the head is mounted longitudinally in the X axis, the how can you interpolate a radius in the Y axis, using a G02 or G03 interpolation in the Z axis, without at least 20 interpolations per stand? That is figuring on a 1 inch wide stand with a .050" stepover per interpolation, which still won't give that great of a finish, imho. And, it's going to take the same amount of time????? Maybe I can learn something new here, and hopefully I can.

Also, if an approximately .150" deep roughing cut, in aluminum, is deflecting a 7/8" ball mill, in a modern CNC, something is wrong. And then there is a .020" spring pass to clean it up. It better not deflect there, even with a dulling cutter, And, you have modern coolants/lubricants to maximize tool wear, and provide a great finish. I find it hard to think an interpolation is the way to go. But, I'm sure I'm missing some considerations, so if I can learn a new, better way, I'm the better for it.

As a side note, I used to machine ball bearing bores in racing manual transmissions and was not allowed to interpolate those bores. If caught doing that, I was assured I would be shown the door. We could only cut them with a boring head. The reason was because interpolation still uses a point-to-point toolpath, and is not a true radius like could be achieved by using a boring head. The trans were built for NASCAR, so it had to be some of the most nit-picky stuff I have ever seen short of the aerospace industry and NASA.


How were the OEM saddles machined?
 
How were the OEM saddles machined?
I'm not sure. Usually, a ball mill will leave a distinctive machined pattern that I haven't seen on the OEM heads. Maybe the stands were bored through after casting, and then the excess stand milled of to where they decided to finish them. I don't know. Somebody who worked for Chrysler may have some better insight.
 
Anyone who thinks you cant remachine those saddles in one pass with a modern mill and a decent cutter is kidding himself. Its aluminum, it's super easy, I have fixed a few of them myself.
 
How are you positioning the head to do that. If the head is mounted longitudinally in the X axis, the how can you interpolate a radius in the Y axis, using a G02 or G03 interpolation in the Z axis, without at least 20 interpolations per stand? That is figuring on a 1 inch wide stand with a .050" stepover per interpolation, which still won't give that great of a finish, imho. And, it's going to take the same amount of time????? Maybe I can learn something new here, and hopefully I can.

Logic would dictate this would be machined at the same time the top of the pedestal is machined and the shaft mounting holes are drilled and tapped. You could make the arc in the z axis or simply move the cutter in the z and y axis and cut moving in the x direction which would be easier on the machine because its not rapidly changing direction in the z at the bottom of the radius. I haven't programed manually writing G code since college, its far too time consuming and risky when programming complex contours and surfaces like what is found on molds. The code is created by the CAM software based on what type of machining strategies you asking it to use whether that be High Efficiency Machining, High Speed Machining or multiple other more conventional guidelines the software will use to create 3D tool path. The crossover is determined by multiple factors including cutter size and the amount of surface deviation allowed by tolerance settings in the software. Many 3d models generated by cad software end up creating surfaces using nurbs rather than lines and arcs making G02 and G03 non existent.

A big cutter turning slow feeding slow vs a small cutter turning tens of thousands of rpm and moving at a much higher feed rate could yield similar machine time, way better finish, more accuracy, and ability to adjust if needed.



Also, if an approximately .150" deep roughing cut, in aluminum, is deflecting a 7/8" ball mill, in a modern CNC, something is wrong. And then there is a .020" spring pass to clean it up. It better not deflect there, even with a dulling cutter, And, you have modern coolants/lubricants to maximize tool wear, and provide a great finish. I find it hard to think an interpolation is the way to go. But, I'm sure I'm missing some considerations, so if I can learn a new, better way, I'm the better for it.

Spring pass indicates same tool path, .020" would be a finish pass but would likely have better results than a true spring pass. It will almost certainly deflect on the .15" cut although the .020" pass would clean up the minor deflection. It will fail to cut as well in the middle where the flutes come together vs the shoulders of the cutter because the feed and speed is so different for the creating a vastly different chip load on the edges of the cutter vs the center where the diameter is effectively much smaller.

A single pass with a finish cut could work but in a production environment it is not most effective or versatile. How will you change the size of your radius if its off with one pass? With a 3D toolpath its a simple adjustment. How much more does a 7/8" solid carbide ball mill cost than a 3/8" or 1/2"? What are you going to do with them when they get dull? You cant sharpen them and use them in the future because they will be too small, but using 3D toolpath you just adjust the size of the cutter in the machine or the program.


As a side note, I used to machine ball bearing bores in racing manual transmissions and was not allowed to interpolate those bores. If caught doing that, I was assured I would be shown the door. We could only cut them with a boring head. The reason was because interpolation still uses a point-to-point toolpath, and is not a true radius like could be achieved by using a boring head. The trans were built for NASCAR, so it had to be some of the most nit-picky stuff I have ever seen short of the aerospace industry and NASA.


That is a totally different application in comparison to what we are talking about and the boring head is the best way to achieve perfectly round holes. As I said in my previous post the ultimate way to finish that would be with a boring or honing operation, but that would take some doing with the half round interrupted cut aspect and long reach required. High quality VMC's that isn't worn can machine round within .0002" pretty easy and cheap machines can hold .0005", but that is due to the machine changing directions 4 times while machining said circle. That being said locational accuracy will typically be better with an interpolated hole vs a boring head due to the backlash being distributed throughout the 4 quadrants of the cut. If you ran your toolpath longitudinal in the groove there is no directional changes in the saddle.

With todays machines its easy to machine 2 separate large blocks of steel with a complex contoured parting lines mirroring each other on a plastic injection mold and have them match and seal off within .001".


That being said how are your shims and hold downs in your kits made? are they not machined in a cnc mill that is interpolating the moon like shape? Or do you have concave and convex form cutters made to create those shapes?

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Where are all of these photos of horrible machining in all of the Speedmaster sale threads? I guess you get what you pay for?
 
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