I know when I went to 318 valves in my ported slant 6 head, the 318 valves were some .300" longer, so I had to have Mike at B3 make some custom shims to get the geometry correct.....and it is spot on. Mike can help you if you let him.
Rocker Arm help
- Thread starter Archeryguy02
- Start date
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Archeryguy02
Well-Known Member
I think maybe you have misunderstood, I have no doubt Mike can help. As I have said previously I am not willing to take the heads off to mess with this when racing starts in a few weeks and I have an option that works fine already on the motor. Mike said at the very least I would need to open up my push rod clearance to work correctly with the kit. After a lengthy conversation with Mike which I greatly appreciate I am following his recommendation and going back to the rocker I was using until I upgrade my heads.
Gotchya. I somehow missed the time constraints you are under.
pishta
I know I'm right....
Is your pattern biased toward the pushrod or the exhaust ports? Whomever has the B3 shim kit, post a few pics of what it is. I can assume if you change the valve length your going to change the pattern, a longer valve/lash capped valve will move pattern out. Also the Mopar cast rockers may have a slightly different dimension running a straight edge across the adjuster/rocker tip contest to the shaft centerline.
my68barracuda
Well-Known Member
Installed height has to do with the distance from the bottom of the valve spring retainer and the top of the valve spring seat with the valve closed. That has little to do with over all valve length, as depending upon the valve, the keeper groove can be a different heights on the same length valve. And different length valves can give you the same installed heights by cutting spring seats or installing shims under the springs.
It always amazes me how some let their machine shop pick out and install parts and the person having the engine built don’t know what they are. Do you know who made the valves and have a part number?
Archeryguy02
Well-Known Member
I am aware of adjustments to the spring seat from machining or shims and various lock options. So installed height was not the right term to use to indicate the height of the stem, but its what I was referring to.
I sourced many of the parts and directed him on most of the remaining parts providing he didn't have a valid reason not go with them. When it came to the valves I wasn't too concerned as long as they were good quality and was going to work with the components I had. I am pretty sure they are Manley valves. If I don't remember the valve length off the top of my head what makes you think I will know the part number? Per my last post I would need to check the invoice to verify, I am currently at my office and don't have that document in front of me.
Archeryguy02
Well-Known Member
Its biased toward the exhaust side, the pictures show it fairly well.
pishta
I know I'm right....
Ok I zoomed in and I see that now. I think shimming up the shaft will help. Try this. Remove the rocker shaft and make aluminum foil shim for the shaft saddles, folded so it's 4 thick and torque em down just to see if the pattern moves in the right direction. It's free and no head removal. If the open valve tip location is under the centerline of the shaft, it will arc more toward the pushrod with the shims.
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Archeryguy02
Well-Known Member
I cannot do that, I have already sent the rockers back to where I bought them and put my old ones back on. From what I have learned through this process the shaft will need to move up and toward the intake to get to ideal geometry. Once I learned I would have to likely pull the heads to make these work I just went back to what I had, its too close to race season to be messing around things like this. I would have been willing to employ bolt on solutions that don't require removing and cutting on the heads. I appreciate the help very much.
pishta
I know I'm right....
sounds like you got it taken care of. Good luck racing!
Two comments.
- using the original rockers is you best idea yet [ see post #17 ].
- looking at the original pic of the alum rockers, you would need to remove metal, not add shims to centre the roller on the valve tip.
- using the original rockers is you best idea yet [ see post #17 ].
- looking at the original pic of the alum rockers, you would need to remove metal, not add shims to centre the roller on the valve tip.
Rat Bastid
Dunamis Metron
Rat,
We will have to agree to disagree.
I am looking in post #1, can only just see part of the shaft, but looks to me that a line drawn up through the shaft mounting bolt & a line drawn from the roller tip contact point & shaft centre would intersect the first line at a 90* angle or a bit more. Lifting the rocker up with shims would move the roller tip even closer the valve edge, exh side, & it is already biased towards that side.
We will have to agree to disagree.
I am looking in post #1, can only just see part of the shaft, but looks to me that a line drawn up through the shaft mounting bolt & a line drawn from the roller tip contact point & shaft centre would intersect the first line at a 90* angle or a bit more. Lifting the rocker up with shims would move the roller tip even closer the valve edge, exh side, & it is already biased towards that side.
Rat Bastid
Dunamis Metron
The geometry in post #1 is very poor for whatever reason, valve length, rocker dimensions wrong.
To use those components and get a centered roller-on-the tip, the rocker body needs to sit lower. Another 'fix' might be lash caps.
To use those components and get a centered roller-on-the tip, the rocker body needs to sit lower. Another 'fix' might be lash caps.
Rat Bastid
Dunamis Metron
Just “because” I may could possibly miss something, I went back and looked at the original picture.
If you do you say and low the shaft, it WILL get closer to the rocker. Then the rocks will hit the spring. Then you will go right to the old “use a beehive spring” theme you love.
And a lash cap, the standard Harlan Sharp answer to all things geometry will make it worse.
That shaft has to go UP and AWAY from the valve for it to be correct. There is no there acceptable correction.
It’s no wonder so many Chrysler engines are out there with crap geometry.
Mike at B3 racing engines has taken the time to write 4 very informative articles on shaft rocker geometry and has them posted on his site.
It’s a must read for anyone wanting to understand geometry and how to correct it.
Rat,
If the OP wants to use the parts shown in his original post the rocker body needs to sit lower or the roller tip raised to correct the geometry. I see nobody has jumped to your defence, because they are probably seeing the same thing I am.
As far BH springs go, get a 'grip'. I leave it you to figure what to grip.....
If the OP wants to use the parts shown in his original post the rocker body needs to sit lower or the roller tip raised to correct the geometry. I see nobody has jumped to your defence, because they are probably seeing the same thing I am.
As far BH springs go, get a 'grip'. I leave it you to figure what to grip.....
ValiantRacing
Well-Known Member
How does your 360 run with the speedmaster heads? did you use a 2.02 intake valve?
Rat Bastid
Dunamis Metron
Doesn’t matter who disagrees. YOU are wrong. Deal with that. Admit you know nothing of shaft rocker geometry because if you did, you’d see how *** backwards you are.
Rat Bastid
Dunamis Metron
cookietruck
Well-Known Member
lot of variables at play, Harland Sharp has a rocker arm specifically for the Edelbrock heads (which the speedmasters should be a copy of). the Mancini rocker fulcrum length falls between the short HS rocker for the Edelbrock heads and a factory rocker arm. So yeah, the mancini rocker arms are a little long. If I remember correctly the PRW rocker arms are almost the exact same fulcrum length as the short HS rocker arms...
Rat,
I am not wrong, but you are. Again. Probably set up more valve trains than you have had hot dinners. Notice how nobody is jumping in to defend you?
Put your glasses on & look at post #1 again. With valve closed, it shows the roller tip off centre to the exh side; with valve open, the roller tip is about to run off the edge of the valve on the exh side??????????
The rocker is effectively to long for this set up. Somebody in post #19 could see the problem, suggested lash caps like I did. See also post #15, working the saddle. They get it. If this rocker was raised up using shims to 'fix' the problem, the rocker would be at a very extreme angle at max lift; p'rod might bind in the cup & even contact the back of the rocker.
This rocker needs to sit lower in it's saddle if it is to be used. This will bring the roller closer to the intake side of the v/tip, valve on the seat, such that it rolls across the centre towards the exh side for a centered pattern during the lift cycle.
I am not wrong, but you are. Again. Probably set up more valve trains than you have had hot dinners. Notice how nobody is jumping in to defend you?
Put your glasses on & look at post #1 again. With valve closed, it shows the roller tip off centre to the exh side; with valve open, the roller tip is about to run off the edge of the valve on the exh side??????????
The rocker is effectively to long for this set up. Somebody in post #19 could see the problem, suggested lash caps like I did. See also post #15, working the saddle. They get it. If this rocker was raised up using shims to 'fix' the problem, the rocker would be at a very extreme angle at max lift; p'rod might bind in the cup & even contact the back of the rocker.
This rocker needs to sit lower in it's saddle if it is to be used. This will bring the roller closer to the intake side of the v/tip, valve on the seat, such that it rolls across the centre towards the exh side for a centered pattern during the lift cycle.
Rat Bastid
Dunamis Metron
I’m going to block you. Unlike you, I don’t need anyone on this forum or anywhere else to agree with me.
So let me take you apart like the fool you are. Let’s look at how many times a rocker is hitting a spring and your standard answer is “beehive” spring, when in fact the issue is the shaft is TOO LOW and TOO CLOSE to the VALVE.
That is EXACTLY what is in the picture in post 1. Think before you type again you fool.
Use what little thinking process you have and lift the shaft UP and move it AWAY from the valve and see where the tip ends up. Then think it through what a lash cap does. It will make it worse.
You are a poser, a joker and a fool. I was correcting geometry long before you were hacking your junk up.
I couldn’t care less what the OP does. In fact, in post q2 he says he talked to Mike and evidently there is an issue with the radius in the saddle of some of these heads so he didn’t suggest fixing it at the moment.
Grow up and act like you can learn something, because you need to learn shaft geometry. Or just stop posting in these threads. Bad advice is no better than theft.
EDIT: I forgot to mention a “centered sweep” is not the way to determine geometry. I’ll take a .040 wide pattern that isn’t centered over a centered pattern that is .080 or more wide. Just dumb. You will never learn. Must be a down under thing.
No, it's not a "down under" thing. There are a lot of Aussies that are running our kits, and also an Australian Pro Stock team running our custom rockers with the stand corrections. It's strictly a Bewy thing.
Bewy likes to reference stuff he reads, and then make it conform to his own ideas. It's like the Smokey Yunick references that he misstated in a previous thread, and he likes to reference Circle Track Magazine a lot. Well, here's a link for a Circle Track article about rocker geometry.
Rocker Arm Geometry And Valvetrain Alignment (motortrend.com)
It completely disagrees with Bewy's version of rocker geometry, and even shows examples of how centering the pattern can be very detrimental. But, as usual, Bewy will likely twist and spin everything to support his viewpoint, and claim he is still correct. It's sad really, because I don't think he is stupid, but simply refuses to learn something new. Either that, or he is just to stubborn to admit being incorrect.
By the way Bewy, this is Rat's defense, and a very good one at that. Also, it's my busiest time of year, so I won't be getting into a long drawn out argument. I have to serve my customers with my time.
You sure did a great job with my slant 6 head! It turned out really nice. I haven't used it yet, but it's comin. lol
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