Single or Twin turbo setup for 360?

[TT5.9mag]

A single turbo is all that would be needed for towing purposes.
You would not need a big turbo to do this. It would be helpful not to use a large one or one someone would use in a racing car. The goal would be to create boost early.

As mentioned earlier, a 408 would be a great place to start but that is just the internet spending your money. A great idea. But throwing money at an issue, real or not, like the USA government does at its issues is t something we all have in the bank.

Stroker = $$$$$
Turbo = $$$$$
Fuel system upgrade = $$$$$
Ignition upgrade = $$$$$

The idea of a Torque Storm centrifugal charger is IMO, not the answer since that is a rising boost curve rather than a properly built turbo system of almost RIGHT NOW - BOOOOOOST!

A roots super charger is boost now (AKA - Torque and lots of it.) starting as soon as the go pedal is pushed.

Pistons need not be forged and can be Hyperutecic but ether way, ignition timing is critical.

Good luck on your endeavor.

Have you ever towed with a gas engine that is turbocharged? Some of the advice you are giving is completely contrary to everything I have learned and I tow weekly (heavy) with a 8.1 vortec bbc and a turbo. And I’ve been doing it for lots and lots of miles.

 

[rumblefish360]

Then by all means, take it away and tell’em how it’s done.
And do so enlighten me.

 

[TT5.9mag]

Then by all means, take it away and tell’em how it’s done.
And do so enlighten me.

I was asking a genuine question hoping to learn from your experience. I’ve already given a lot of advice in this thread. I’ll answer the OPs questions if he has any (or anyone else’s for that matter), I just read a few things in your response that I don’t necessarily agree with.

 

[rumblefish360]

OK, cool. And they are…..?????

 

[TT5.9mag]

OK, cool. And they are…..?????

1. A larger than optimal (what you would size for a power/response build) is what you want for towing. To stay OUT of boost in light load. The extra load (heavy truck, trailer) will make the boost when you want it.
2. I suggested more cubic inches as an easier path (cheaper) to his goals. Was trying to save him some money. Not just the “internet spending his money”
3. I had a 460 ford in an F350 dually with a vortec centrifugal supercharger. It was an excellent package BECAUSE of the rising (not linear) boost curve.
4. When I build an engine for ANY plan of boost, I skip right past the page where the cast and hypereutectic pistons are in the book and go straight to forged. Especially in a towing/heavy load situation. And I set them up with loose as a goose skirt clearance and huge ring gaps. Hypereutectic pistons are strong but very brittle and novice tuners will miss the tune up often and kill them. Forged will handle the long periods of heat in the crown and be more tolerant of inexperienced tuning mistakes.

 

[mopardude318]

I say go with a 408 AND a turbo. But that’s easy to say when I’m not buying. Lol I don’t have any turbo experience, except for the one in my 01’ Cummins truck.
With that said, I like me a roots blown small block. I haven’t towed with my tiny roots blown small block in my
PowerWagon yet.
Truck Pulls are this weekend at the county fair. Might just make it in time for my
first ever pulling event. Lol

 

[rumblefish360]

1. A larger than optimal (what you would size for a power/response build) is what you want for towing. To stay OUT of boost in light load. The extra load (heavy truck, trailer) will make the boost when you want it.

When I said, large turbo, I’m thinking a drag race car sized.
You can go to large. Correct?
A properly size turbo would provide boost when you need it and not to early or late. This would be early by compare. Correct?

2. I suggested more cubic inches as an easier path (cheaper) to his goals. Was trying to save him some money. Not just the “internet spending his money”

No, it’s the internet spending money in which I did not agree with but choose the path of less money. Since you can throw money like the USA give rent at a problem, real or not, we’ll great for you. Does the OP?

There is no argument from me that bigger is better and a great way to go. But do so tell me the cost of a fully rebuilt engine of your thinking. Does the app have this kind of money?

3. I had a 460 ford in an F350 dually with a vortec centrifugal supercharger. It was an excellent package BECAUSE of the rising (not linear) boost curve.

Not IMO. I can see a plus to it. Though I’d rather not need to rev it up into the great boost area needed to tow something.

4. When I build an engine for ANY plan of boost, I skip right past the page where the cast and hypereutectic pistons are in the book and go straight to forged. Especially in a towing/heavy load situation. And I set them up with loose as a goose skirt clearance and huge ring gaps. Hypereutectic pistons are strong but very brittle and novice tuners will miss the tune up often and kill them. Forged will handle the long periods of heat in the crown and be more tolerant of inexperienced tuning mistakes.

That’s great! GOOD! For you. Spend that money wisely!
Does the OP intend or have the money for your fool proof plan.
Is the OP a novice at tuning?
Conservative tuning would be the start of all tuning. No doubt.
Knowing cast pistons are behind forged is a no brainer. When you wrote what you did, it seems like you have no faith in them. Break a few?

 

[TT5.9mag]

When I said, large turbo, I’m thinking a drag race car sized.
You can go to large. Correct?
A properly size turbo would provide boost when you need it and not to early or late. This would be early by compare. Correct?

No, it’s the internet spending money in which I did not agree with but choose the path of less money. Since you can throw money like the USA give rent at a problem, real or not, we’ll great for you. Does the OP?

There is no argument from me that bigger is better and a great way to go. But do so tell me the cost of a fully rebuilt engine of your thinking. Does the app have this kind of money?

Not IMO. I can see a plus to it. Though I’d rather not need to rev it up into the great boost area needed to tow something.

That’s great! GOOD! For you. Spend that money wisely!
Does the OP intend or have the money for your fool proof plan.
Is the OP a novice at tuning?
Conservative tuning would be the start of all tuning. No doubt.
Knowing cast pistons are behind forged is a no brainer. When you wrote what you did, it seems like you have no faith in them. Break a few?

If the OP doesn’t have the money for forged pistons he shouldn’t be considering a boosted towing application. I wasn’t assuming his skill level, he admittedly said “Help out a lost guy because I've always been an N/A engine type of guy and the land of boost is foreign to me.” This most likely means tuning a forced induction engine as well. Turbo sizing is much more than “too big” or “too small”, read and understand a few compressor maps and you’ll understand that. You do not want boost early in this application, you want to be able to drive in light load situations off boost and have the power when you need it, so no not “early by compare”, later is better. So sizing larger than you would for a street car application is important. A 360 with 70mm turbo might be right in the 70% efficient zone in a 3000lb dart but put it in a 4500lb truck with a trailer behind it and all of the sudden it’s in surge. Defining a turbo by “race car sized” is ridiculous. That same 70mm turbo on a k series Honda might be appropriate if you were racing it.

 

[rumblefish360]

If the OP doesn’t have the money for forged pistons he shouldn’t be considering a boosted towing application. I wasn’t assuming his skill level, he admittedly said “Help out a lost guy because I've always been an N/A engine type of guy and the land of boost is foreign to me.” This most likely means tuning a forced induction engine as well. Turbo sizing is much more than “too big” or “too small”, read and understand a few compressor maps and you’ll understand that. You do not want boost early in this application, you want to be able to drive in light load situations off boost and have the power when you need it, so no not “early by compare”, later is better. So sizing larger than you would for a street car application is important. A 360 with 70mm turbo might be right in the 70% efficient zone in a 3000lb dart but put it in a 4500lb truck with a trailer behind it and all of the sudden it’s in surge. Defining a turbo by “race car sized” is ridiculous. That same 70mm turbo on a k series Honda might be appropriate if you were racing it.

I’ll agree on a racing turbo size being subjective but now your bringing n a Honda 4 cylinder when we’re talking about a 360. I feel love me that a blueing of the line here and BS to bring it up but I understand where your going with that ridiculous comparison. Since the topic engine is a 360.

I do remember reading he needs help. The tuning skills can vary.

You keep plugging away at “Early” as if I was meaning from idle or 1500 and having boost at what ever level your thinking I’m thinking. It’s an accusing type of statement on a route I did t suggest but you do.

When I said early, WTF did you think I was thinking?

So far, you have answered NONE of my questions but continue to pursue and insinuate a route.

Do you have some kind of issue with me?

 

[rumblefish360]

I have a another question.

With a turbo in a racing arena, describe what you consider a racing set up.

 

[MopaR&D]

I’ll agree on a racing turbo size being subjective but now your bringing n a Honda 4 cylinder when we’re talking about a 360. I feel love me that a blueing of the line here and BS to bring it up but I understand where your going with that ridiculous comparison. Since the topic engine is a 360.

I do remember reading he needs help. The tuning skills can vary.

You keep plugging away at “Early” as if I was meaning from idle or 1500 and having boost at what ever level your thinking I’m thinking. It’s an accusing type of statement on a route I did t suggest but you do.

When I said early, WTF did you think I was thinking?

So far, you have answered NONE of my questions but continue to pursue and insinuate a route.

Do you have some kind of issue with me?

Turbos don't care about the type of engine, just the size and N/A HP. All he's doing is making a comparison about a 70mm turbo being big for a 2.xL 4-banger compared to a 5.9L V8.

Just my opinion but watching both of your guys' responses, I think you could give him a bit more benefit of the doubt. Again JMO, not trying to judge just don't want this interesting discussion to go south because I'm learning too. I also read your earlier post about having boost early as being below ~2500 RPM. And that has more to do with load than engine speed.

The 7.3L Powerstroke diesel was fitted from the factory with an "oversized" turbo where when the truck was unloaded would only get into boost if you floored it and were above the mid-range of the RPM band. If you put a heavy load in the truck the turbo would become a lot more active at partial throttle and lower RPMs.

 

[rumblefish360]

Turbos don't care about the type of engine, just the size and N/A HP. All he's doing is making a comparison about a 70mm turbo being big for a 2.xL 4-banger compared to a 5.9L V8.

I get that. Just for say… if a 70mm turbo is right for the 360 and a bad choice for a 4 banger, wouldn’t make sense to use a smaller turbo for the 4 banger? Of course it would. Unless someone is going to split a hair somewhere on me.

Are we towing with the 4 cyl.? If we were, what size turbo would YOU put on it? A 35? A 50? 70mm? Would the 70mm be about right for a 360 for this towing? Or is a large one, like I suggested not to use, like a drag racing set up?

Let’s say the 4 cylinder is a 3.0. Half the 360. Then would a 35mm turbo be right? Let’s run it around the other way. If the 70mm turbo is right for the 360 in a towing application, would a 100+mm turbo be OK for towing? Or better for racing.

Seems to me this is a area where nothing was defined but internet hero’s want to pick apart and talk **** about without answering any questions and even more so pertinent questions to the issue. Just side steps and insinuating or ish comments.

I’m not dogging you MoPar R&D

Just my opinion but watching both of your guys' responses, I think you could give him a bit more benefit of the doubt. Again JMO, not trying to judge just don't want this interesting discussion to go south because I'm learning too. I also read your earlier post about having boost early as being below ~2500 RPM. And that has more to do with load than engine speed.

Give who the Benny of the doubt?
I’m not getting it now.
I’d love to learn this myself.
So - seeing boost at 2500 (or less) means what to you?
7, 10. 14 lbs.?
Come 2K, is it OK to see 1 or 2 lbs.?
Or should I wait until 4500 or 5K for boost in towing?

The 7.3L Powerstroke diesel was fitted from the factory with an "oversized" turbo where when the truck was unloaded would only get into boost if you floored it and were above the mid-range of the RPM band. If you put a heavy load in the truck the turbo would become a lot more active at partial throttle and lower RPMs.

And my suggestion on getting the boost in earlier rather than later is a bad one but yet you point to a factory set up doing this with what your saying is an oversized turbo when not towing but oK when towing? This is a thread about towing right?

I’m about to write hypocrite in caps here bro!

Seems to be a lot of assumptions made on me here.
Even more so that I never made a specific recommendation on a turbo size. I just said boost early. Seems like some people think I would suggest (or I am suggesting) 14lbs. @ 2K.

I’m waiting on TT5.9mag to answer my questions.

 

[TT5.9mag]

@rumblefish360 I have no issue with you at all. None whatsoever, but it seems you are just rambling. You didn’t ask me any real specific questions so I won’t respond.

 

[rumblefish360]

I didn’t ask you any real questions?
OMG-LMAO! Yea! OK!
But your happy to offer a opposing view comment.
I’m not going back to quite my questions in my posts.
If you can’t answer them, just say so and be done with it.
I’m out since YOU offer no help and only dodge questions.

 

[MopaR&D]

I get that. Just for say… if a 70mm turbo is right for the 360 and a bad choice for a 4 banger, wouldn’t make sense to use a smaller turbo for the 4 banger? Of course it would. Unless someone is going to split a hair somewhere on me.

Are we towing with the 4 cyl.? If we were, what size turbo would YOU put on it? A 35? A 50? 70mm? Would the 70mm be about right for a 360 for this towing? Or is a large one, like I suggested not to use, like a drag racing set up?

Let’s say the 4 cylinder is a 3.0. Half the 360. Then would a 35mm turbo be right? Let’s run it around the other way. If the 70mm turbo is right for the 360 in a towing application, would a 100+mm turbo be OK for towing? Or better for racing.

Seems to me this is a area where nothing was defined but internet hero’s want to pick apart and talk **** about without answering any questions and even more so pertinent questions to the issue. Just side steps and insinuating or ish comments.

I’m not dogging you MoPar R&D

Give who the Benny of the doubt?
I’m not getting it now.
I’d love to learn this myself.
So - seeing boost at 2500 (or less) means what to you?
7, 10. 14 lbs.?
Come 2K, is it OK to see 1 or 2 lbs.?
Or should I wait until 4500 or 5K for boost in towing?

And my suggestion on getting the boost in earlier rather than later is a bad one but yet you point to a factory set up doing this with what your saying is an oversized turbo when not towing but oK when towing? This is a thread about towing right?

I’m about to write hypocrite in caps here bro!

Seems to be a lot of assumptions made on me here.
Even more so that I never made a specific recommendation on a turbo size. I just said boost early. Seems like some people think I would suggest (or I am suggesting) 14lbs. @ 2K.

I’m waiting on TT5.9mag to answer my questions.

OK then... well to address my comment about the 7.3 PSD, Ford/Navistar realized that wasn't the ideal setup and went with a VGT turbo on the subsequent 6.0 PSD. They made up for the increased boost at low RPM (and thus increased fuel consumption) by making the engine itself smaller and more efficient.

This turbo stuff isn't quite as straightforward as putting together a combo for a typical Mopar gas V8. My comments aren't intended to be "be-all-end-all" answers to anyone's questions just things to think about because it's a very complicated subject. Having early boost isn't a "bad" idea it's just not exactly optimal, in my mind because low RPM is where gas engines are most likely to encounter knock and the last thing you want to do is load a gas engine down hard at low RPM and hit it with a bunch of boost.

Case in point the Ford "Eco"Boost engines in the trucks. People get worse gas mileage towing with those than with the N/A 5.0L V8 because the engine is simply too small for the load and the AFR needs to go super rich to keep the engine from melting down.

Again, saying this more for everyone to gain something useful (hopefully) not really directed specifically at you.

 

[rumblefish360]

@MopaR&D Thank you.

This turbo stuff isn't quite as straightforward as putting together a combo for a typical

Nothings typical.

Again, I made a generalization. The FABO Turbo GODs have come down on me and offered no replies. Just a ninny two step side step like a coward only offering up they know nothing while starting an argument they can not win.

There is only assumptions being made in me & on my post.

I only replied to your post to be considerate.
I’m out!

You show’em how it’s done, get him the right parts, I’m sure you and TT are up to it. Good day sir.

 

[TT5.9mag]

I didn’t ask you any real questions?
OMG-LMAO! Yea! OK!
But your happy to offer a opposing view comment.
I’m not going back to quite my questions in my posts.
If you can’t answer them, just say so and be done with it.
I’m out since YOU offer no help and only dodge questions.

Ive offered a ton of help in this thread and many other forced induction threads ask around. You are making generalizations and assumptions and not advice from experience. I’m glad you’re out, you asked if I blew up cast pistons after I told you I don’t use them. You asked me to describe a “race car turbo setup”. Way too many variables for a single answer. Seriously I don’t have an issue with you like I said before but now you’re calling me a ninny and a coward. The mark of a true internet hero, name calling and no substantiated evidence to back your claims. Have a nice day.

 

[TT5.9mag]

OK then... well to address my comment about the 7.3 PSD, Ford/Navistar realized that wasn't the ideal setup and went with a VGT turbo on the subsequent 6.0 PSD. They made up for the increased boost at low RPM (and thus increased fuel consumption) by making the engine itself smaller and more efficient.

This turbo stuff isn't quite as straightforward as putting together a combo for a typical Mopar gas V8. My comments aren't intended to be "be-all-end-all" answers to anyone's questions just things to think about because it's a very complicated subject. Having early boost isn't a "bad" idea it's just not exactly optimal, in my mind because low RPM is where gas engines are most likely to encounter knock and the last thing you want to do is load a gas engine down hard at low RPM and hit it with a bunch of boost.

Case in point the Ford "Eco"Boost engines in the trucks. People get worse gas mileage towing with those than with the N/A 5.0L V8 because the engine is simply too small for the load and the AFR needs to go super rich to keep the engine from melting down.

Again, saying this more for everyone to gain something useful (hopefully) not really directed specifically at you.

Well said.

 

[Sweet5ltr]

So I need everyone's opinions on a single or compound turbo setup for a 360 that I'll be putting in my W150 that'll be used for mostly towing and some fun of course. The original plan was to just budget build a 360 nothing too special and put it in there and roll BUT the other day I was discussing it with my dad and we brought up the idea of a turbo 360 for easier power, something different for us to do and because turbo, why not? Now I have only, and I mean only done a very brief search on google for turbo kits and you know it! I found a kit on ebay (I know I know its an ebay turbo kit, forgive me) but luckily the cam I already got for the original build was a Mopar purple shaft .410/.425 RV cam which would be good for a turbo build. Now I've heard the compound turboing is not the route to go for a semi-daily driver or tow rig. I haven't as to why that is bad it's just what I've heard so which route do I go? Now to clarify this engine is not going to be some 800-1,000 horsepower build. I'd only like to go in the area of 475-500 and that's decent for me. The rotating assembly will change from the original plan of stock rods and crank to forged if necessary and the pistons will be too. Everything will be accounted for accordingly in the transmission and transfer case as well as all else I can think of. I haven't seen or heard enough info ever on turbo small block mopar builds other than like ritter block W-headed engines so this is why I'm here. Help out a lost guy because I've always been an N/A engine type of guy and the land of boost is foreign to me.
-

View attachment 1715990675

Terrible idea for a towing application, just saying what needs to be said. Step up to a 408" with Trick Flow (or comparable) heads, because you'll be building another shortblock shortly after the first turbo build.

Keep it simple (reliable), with gearing and displacement. It's a tow-rig, not a drag truck. Peak horsepower is pretty meaningless, goal should be maximum torque below 3,000 RPM. Preferably from 1,000-2,500 RPM. That's most easily accomplished through displacement.

 

[turbodart68]

Turbo sizing and fuel management will be your hot spots to be successful or a disaster. I can tell you a blow through carb is simple but a terrible driver and you will regret it. So you will want to go with a fuel injection set up but if you cheap out there then you will be saddled with weird problems. If you can swing it buy a magnum motor complete out of the junkyard and blow through it and use the Holley terminator X system to manage. Next up is turbo sizing. This is critical. There is so much to turbo sizing it would take a few pages to contain the response. Personally I would call Comp turbo or Precision and work with them to find the right size. It will not spool in the appropriate time but it will have cooler intake air temps which will help tremendously in staying out of detonation. You will also want to use water/ meth injection for the same reason. Most likely a 300 hp 360 out of a truck will make 450hp with 7psi and probably make 700 LB/FT which will be really hard on the rods and cast piston. So maybe the goal would be 4 psi of boost with a stock bottom end.

 

[Brooks James]

I looked at dual turbo kits a while back, eBay. There was a kit with headers for $1300, was complete

 

[TT5.9mag]

Turbo sizing and fuel management will be your hot spots to be successful or a disaster. I can tell you a blow through carb is simple but a terrible driver and you will regret it. So you will want to go with a fuel injection set up but if you cheap out there then you will be saddled with weird problems. If you can swing it buy a magnum motor complete out of the junkyard and blow through it and use the Holley terminator X system to manage. Next up is turbo sizing. This is critical. There is so much to turbo sizing it would take a few pages to contain the response. Personally I would call Comp turbo or Precision and work with them to find the right size. It will not spool in the appropriate time but it will have cooler intake air temps which will help tremendously in staying out of detonation. You will also want to use water/ meth injection for the same reason. Most likely a 300 hp 360 out of a truck will make 450hp with 7psi and probably make 700 LB/FT which will be really hard on the rods and cast piston. So maybe the goal would be 4 psi of boost with a stock bottom end.

Great response. Turbo sizing will be the most important thing in this situation