Small Block Oil Pick Up Tube Question

[Marcohotrod]

Then you need to look at the area a dry sump has.

You can't get enough area on the suction side of the pump. This has been published for decades.

sucking air with a wet sump is not good. a dry sump has many suctions cuz they HAVE A BIG TANK that the oil and air is sucked into and stored with baffles, then the oil is sucked out the bottom and pumped in to the engine. what is the i.d. of the new dipstick tube cuz it does not look much larger? and mopar and canton and moroso use a screen on the pickup cuz it is around 85% open and 15% metal, where the restrictive milodon intake with a bunch of drilled holes is a "nice restriction"-Smokey Yunick - 50% open and 50% metal

 

[TrailBeast]

It is not a 2 pickup system it is a 2 line system that uses 1 pickup.

Well that makes all the difference then.
My bad.

 

[nm9stheham]

and mopar and canton and moroso use a screen on the pickup cuz it is around 85% open and 15% metal, where the restrictive milodon intake with a bunch of drilled holes is a "nice restriction"-Smokey Yunick - 50% open and 50% metal

I would be looking at the total flow area of the pickup opening, not the % of surface. If the total area is still a lot larger than the flow area of the tube, then it is not likely any issue.

Thanks for the info on the dual pickup, BTW..... lots of good info here.

 

[Jadaharabi]

what is the i.d. of the new dipstick tube cuz it does not look much larger?

The stock 3/8 pickup tube fitting on the Milodon pickup is .444 ID at the threaded part that screws into the pump.
The Dipstick tube is .661 ID.
The Milodon with the 3/8 end removed is .645 untill I get a bigger bit. Then it will be .661. In the pictures the readout dropped to .659 from .661. when I was setting the lock screw.
OD is .75

 

[Jadaharabi]

I drilled one and brazed in a larger tube grafted to a Milodon pickup. Thanks for the 727 dipstick tube idea! Does the crank throw clear the bell reducer? Is your engine a stroker? Mine is pretty close to the larger tube as it is with a 4.125 crank so I drilled the hole a bit slanted to tip the tube away from the crank where it leaves the pump.

My engine is for a NHRA stocker so I can't run a stroker. Your welcome. It is a 1//2npt coupler not a bell reducer. I'm using a windage tray. so my crank is covered.
Are you using a 340 block punched to 4.1 with that stroke?

 

[Jadaharabi]

Talked with a guy at Milodon a minute ago. He is working with NHRA on a possible solution to the pan problem with the stockers. In the mean time I am trying to buy the screw in, end piece from a hemi pickup tube which is 1/2npt to weld to the 18650 pickup tube or any tube that size.

 

[yellow rose]

Talked with a guy at Milodon a minute ago. He is working with NHRA on a possible solution to the pan problem with the stockers. In the mean time I am trying to buy the screw in, end piece from a hemi pickup tube which is 1/2npt to weld to the 18650 pickup tube or any tube that size.

That would be nice in NHRA would fix that issue. Those guys are going fast enough that a stock pan is a crap shoot at best.

 

[Jadaharabi]

Talked with a guy at Milodon a minute ago. He is working with NHRA on a possible solution to the pan problem with the stockers. In the mean time I am trying to buy the screw in, end piece from a hemi pickup tube which is 1/2npt to weld to the 18650 pickup tube or any tube that size.

I now have a hemi pickup tube insert coming from Milodon. Hopefully it will be here in a few days. Once received I will see if it will work on the end of the 18650 pickup tube. I will post a picture of my creation.

My mine is a whirl with the images of great quantities of oil flowing from the pumps of small block mopars.

 

[grimreaper]

thanks for the information. Based on your work I have taken a die grinder with a carbide burr and ground an inlet so it's closer to center. I plan to drill and tap it to 1/2 pipe so I'm very interested in your results with the Milodon end. Hope it works. I'd love to have a "go to" solution for an oil pump pickup that doesn't restrict the pump.

 

[Locomotion]

Regardless of the reason why you need to increase the volume of oil, it is possible to work on the problem from the opposite end - reduce the need for a greater volume of oil!

While it all has its limits, making sure bearing clearances are closer to the minimums, thinner oils, limiting oil flow to areas not needing as much, tightening rocker arm side clearances, making it easier for oil up top to return to the oil pan and better oil control with trays and scrapers in the oil pan will help in solving many problems. A side benefit of less oil being pumped is less parasitic HP loss, less stress on associated parts and lower oil temperatures! With less oil "leaking", the less there is to worry about getting caught in "windage" that the tray/scrapers have to deal with..

Don't take this as me picking on your approach. But perhaps an applicable analogy would be someone trying to fill a "leaky" barrel with a garden hose, but the hose can't keep up. So one gets a bigger, higher output hose to fill it with instead of patching some of the holes (even if all can't be plugged). Just trying to offer a different perspective.

 

[Jadaharabi]

thanks for the information. Based on your work I have taken a die grinder with a carbide burr and ground an inlet so it's closer to center. I plan to drill and tap it to 1/2 pipe so I'm very interested in your results with the Milodon end. Hope it works. I'd love to have a "go to" solution for an oil pump pickup that doesn't restrict the pump.

i tried the die grinder on the pump in the picture. Was able to move the center of the hole down and over from the thin side. When i drilled it the bit headed off toward the thin side. Next time I try this I will remove more material from the inside thick wall first.

Still waiting on the Milodon insert to get here.

So I proceeded on Frankentube. These are before being welded of course. The flying saucer will be plugged where the original tube went in to it as will the spot weld hole to make it air tight. The coupler will be welded on both sides as well to make it air tight and less chance of be coming loose. When I get it back from the welder I will weigh it against the weight of the stock pickup.

 

[Jadaharabi]

Regardless of the reason why you need to increase the volume of oil, it is possible to work on the problem from the opposite end - reduce the need for a greater volume of oil!

While it all has its limits, making sure bearing clearances are closer to the minimums, thinner oils, limiting oil flow to areas not needing as much, tightening rocker arm side clearances, making it easier for oil up top to return to the oil pan and better oil control with trays and scrapers in the oil pan will help in solving many problems. A side benefit of less oil being pumped is less parasitic HP loss, less stress on associated parts and lower oil temperatures! With less oil "leaking", the less there is to worry about getting caught in "windage" that the tray/scrapers have to deal with..

Don't take this as me picking on your approach. But perhaps an applicable analogy would be someone trying to fill a "leaky" barrel with a garden hose, but the hose can't keep up. So one gets a bigger, higher output hose to fill it with instead of patching some of the holes (even if all can't be plugged). Just trying to offer a different perspective.

Totally agree With tightening up loose clearances and using trays and scrapers. At the same time remember the escaping oil is also carrying away heat from the moving part to the oil pan where it is cooled.

 

[nm9stheham]

Totally agree With tightening up loose clearances and using trays and scrapers. At the same time remember the escaping oil is also carrying away heat from the moving part to the oil pan where it is cooled.

And less oil flow would lessen the effects of any restrictions like at the intake. Spot on about the oil cooling; oil cooling does a LOT more than most folks appreciate. I remember having an argument (oops, 'discussion') a few years back, where I was saying that thinner oils flowed more and cooled better. Someone took umbrage and said that was all wrong, and that they had tested on a dyno, and that thinner oils just got hotter.... When I explained that the hotter oil was BECAUSE the thinner oil was flowing more and cooling the internal parts more, there was a 'meeting of the minds' LOL

I've moved to thinner oils in rally use for that very reason; the engines can get hammered on for 5 to 45 minutes at a time and any extra cooling helps keep things more stable inside the engine, turbo, etc. However, that is a racing discipline where beyond a certain point, getting every last HP is a worthless effort; you just can't put it to the ground. I'd probably look at it very differently for drag racing, where every .01 second can count and the traction can be managed to use any and all extra HP.

BTW, all very interesting work here; thanks for putting it out there.

 

[grimreaper]

My original concern is that it seems pretty senseless to do all of the nice oiling mods presented by Guitar Jones which includes drilling the block to 1/2" passages and then only allowing less than 7/16" volume into the pickup end. Back in the 70s there was an engineer for Mopar performance who used a test engine with various pickup tubes and proved that even the stock pump with adequate pickup capacity would put out more oil than the high volume with the standard capacity pickup. Oil control throughout the entire system is very important. I am looking forward to the results of the Milodon Hemi tube fitting.

 

[yellow rose]

My original concern is that it seems pretty senseless to do all of the nice oiling mods presented by Guitar Jones which includes drilling the block to 1/2" passages and then only allowing less than 7/16" volume into the pickup end. Back in the 70s there was an engineer for Mopar performance who used a test engine with various pickup tubes and proved that even the stock pump with adequate pickup capacity would put out more oil than the high volume with the standard capacity pickup. Oil control throughout the entire system is very important. I am looking forward to the results of the Milodon Hemi tube fitting.

This is the truth. It has been published for decades and has been verified by other third party entities who thought it was bogus data, but it is true.

The gerotor pump also has output that is more like big gulps and not a smooth flow.

Again, anything you can do to increase area on the suction side of the pump is time and money well spent. Especially when the RPM's go up past 6000. This is true of almost any constant flow hydraulic system.

Most of what is done after the filter is gilding the lily.

 

[Jadaharabi]

My original concern is that it seems pretty senseless to do all of the nice oiling mods presented by Guitar Jones which includes drilling the block to 1/2" passages and then only allowing less than 7/16" volume into the pickup end. Back in the 70s there was an engineer for Mopar performance who used a test engine with various pickup tubes and proved that even the stock pump with adequate pickup capacity would put out more oil than the high volume with the standard capacity pickup. Oil control throughout the entire system is very important. I am looking forward to the results of the Milodon Hemi tube fitting.

I received the insert today. Was really glad to finally get it, even though it is basically what I had already.

It is basically a 1/2npt x 3 1/2 pipe nipple machined down .020 in the middle then cut in half.

Here it is next to a 1/2npt x 3in nipple. Both pieces are 5/8 ID.

The picture with the coupling is how I'm going to finish off mine until I find a 3/4" ID tube to make into a thin wall coupler.
I will of course weld both sides of the coupling.

 

[grimreaper]

Thanks a bunch for your input and update. Based on what you have found it looks like the do it yourself method prevails.

 

[Jadaharabi]

Finally got pics of a 18650 modified to a 1/2 npt. It weighes 2 grams more than a stock 3/8 pickup.

.

 

[Cudafever]

Thanks for the pics.
So did you tap the oil pump out to a bigger size?
How much material was left around the oil pump inlet?

 

[Jadaharabi]

Thanks for the pics.
So did you tap the oil pump out to a bigger size?
How much material was left around the oil pump inlet?

Yes drilled and tapped to 1/2 NPT. When you chose a pump it may need to have the center moved over toward the thick wall of the pump. You can use a small grinding stone or a burr for this. Then do the drilling. I have found the newer pumps have been changed an don't have as much material as nthe older pump housings. I use the older ones for this modiflicstion. I have not measured the thickness around the hole but I will.

 

[Jadaharabi]

Pic of the 1st pump I ever did. Now I move the hole over to the thick wall side with a burr then drill it.

 

[yellow rose]

This is the truth. It has been published for decades and has been verified by other third party entities who thought it was bogus data, but it is true.

The gerotor pump also has output that is more like big gulps and not a smooth flow.

Again, anything you can do to increase area on the suction side of the pump is time and money well spent. Especially when the RPM's go up past 6000. This is true of almost any constant flow hydraulic system.

Most of what is done after the filter is gilding the lily.

Replying to my own post because I can’t edit it. I didn’t see what Locomotion posted above. He is 100% correct.

Anything you can do to reduce oil volume through the engine are the best modifications you can do on the pressure side of the pump.

I always ASSume guys are already doing it but many do not and it needs to be done.

 

[Jadaharabi]

Can anyone provide information on what modifications have been used to allow a greater flow of oil into the oil pump? I have applied several oiling system modifications thanks to the great write up by Guitar Jones but I have a mid sump pan in a passenger car so there is no room for the pick up tubes from Canton or Champ with the tube going into the bottom plate of the pump. I have a Moroso and a Miodon pickup tube which are suppose to be high capacity but they both neck down to a small diameter to fit the 3/8 NPT pump threading. I can drill them to 7/16" but that is still the bottleneck in the system when everything else is opened to 1/2". Has anyone got some creative ideas to get a proper amount of oil into the pump other than drilling the pump and brazing a 1/2"ID tube in?

Old thread but Grimreaper what did you finally do?

 

[grimreaper]

Ground the opening so I could drill and tap to 1/2". Got some steel tubing packed it full of sand and welded ends tempoarily with a tiny vent so I could heat and bend it enough to work. Welded it to a 1/2" nipple and attached it all to a fabricated screen assy.