So….more header talk….this had me scratching my head

[Cudafever]

So….. sitting in the staging lanes Saturday( had a good bit of a wait before before we got pulled, talking to Vance, guy who drives the Rod Shop Dodge Dart( races it in stock).
Up walks a guy I have met several times at a get together a good friend of mine has once a year.
His name is Chris Hardy. He owns RET, racing engine technology. Tons of guys nationally run his heads in stock and super stock.
Him and his dad were hitters in 6 banger Buicks in stock forever.
Anyhow he asks how my car was running, I said OK, but better when I get around to getting bigger headers for it. He ask me a few questions. I had told him of the recent “ bigger heads and bigger intake” swap. He asked how the car 60 footed now compared to before. I told him I have enough hits now to say that it’s about 3 slower. Typical 1.47 before, now 1.50 almost every lap thus far. 10 or 12 hits thus far.
Told him I was looking at putting a 1 7/8 tube on this 418. He told me no way, he would even consider anything bigger than a 1 3/4 tube with what I have, heavy car, Yada, Yada.
He says… “ you have obviously been listening to dyno guys too much. You need to think about torque, more torque, faster down the track. You have a bigger runner head now, you have lost torque, thus the 3 loss in the 60 foot.
He said a lot of the stuff he is doing, he is telling his head customers to put 1.5 inch tubes on, not even 1 5/8. I was like..are you friggin kidding me..lol
Said he just finished a set of heads on a shoebox Nova that qualified 10th with a 327/ 275 horse motor that they installed couple days before Sonoma last weekend, and in spite of having wheelstand issues car went like 9.99..13 quicker than they had ever been…and still sorting it out.
Guy is without a doubt smart, just goes against everything I have ever though I knew about headers.
Anyhow..
Signed,
Confused in Kalamazoo

so tell us all your spec on eng converter rear gear slick height exc.

 

[B3422w5]

so tell us all your spec on eng converter rear gear slick height exc.

race weight…3350( with typical amount of fuel in my 15 gallon cell= 1/2 full
418 stroker
12.4 compression
Ported victor
850 race brawler carb
Bloomer stock replacement style heads…200cc intake
1 5/8 Doug’s headers with Kooks mufflers
Howard’s flat tappet cam 260/264 565/ 565 gross lift(106 LSA in at 104, card calls for 102)
HS 1.5 rockers
PTC 8 inch vert 5k flash
904 footbrake
4.30 gear
275 Hoosier drag radial 28 by 10 pretty much
Shift at 6300-6400 trap at 65-6600 in 1/4
Best ET thus far 10.68, 124.48

I think it wants more lift, lots more…more vert(5400-5500) and likely more header, to run like I expect it should, and maybe somebody 200 pounds lighter than me driving it.

 

[Rat Bastid]

Comp Cams roller, gross lift .654 intake, .655 exhaust, duration @ .050 269 intake, 276 exhaust installed at 106.0 center line.
13.9:1 compression, 5.13 gear, approx 5000 stall with 9 inch converter, edelbrock victor W2 intake with either a first generation 1050 dominator or a Quick Fuel 1050 dominator style carb, I run both. Tire diameter is 31.5, shifting at 6500, trap rpm in the 1/8 is about 6700, 1/4 around 7000. These trap RPMs are a best guess as I can't recall the exact numbers.

So 106 is the intake center line. What is your lobe separation angle?

Edit: is this a 408 inch W2 engine?

 

[rumblefish360]

Dwayne didn't like the heads. No raised roof and stock length fat valves. I worked at the dealership and got a great deal. And frankly at the time like 12 to 21 ? years ago there wasn't a lot available. The Chapman's were but out of my price range at the time. 528 cubes matching MW port single plain M1. I picked the cam that fit Dwaynes recommendations. Less that 670 lift and as much duration as I could get away with. Mopar P5155616 657/659 308/315 275/282@50 Apparently it works. Even the dyno operator (a known Chevy guy) seemed surprised.

Not so surprised a “Chevy Guy” was surprised that a MoPar does what it does when someone knows a little something on how to make a MoPar run. Not exactly a ton of MP racers out there.

The stock Stg-VI location was a power maker problem from the get go. The other heads out there were, Brodix & …… who else??? Yea, rickets is all I hear. You did what you could do. The wallet is only so thick. (Credit) Debt is not an option.

I think overall it did good with what it had.

 

[66Valiant528]

Not so surprised a “Chevy Guy” was surprised that a MoPar does what it does when someone knows a little something on how to make a MoPar run. Not exactly a ton of MP racers out there.

The stock Stg-VI location was a power maker problem from the get go. The other heads out there were, Brodix & …… who else??? Yea, rickets is all I hear. You did what you could do. The wallet is only so thick. (Credit) Debt is not an option.

I think overall it did good with what it had.

Thanks.
It's taken a long time to get my combination together. Like 25 years....but thats what life and the budget dictated.

 

[Cudafever]

so tell us all your spec on eng converter rear gear slick height exc.

When i first clicked on this thread, there was a lot of commercials after your original post.
So i thought no one had posted up yet.
When i got back on and realized my post was on the 2nt page, well, i learned the error of my ways.

 

[9secRR]

I’ll try my keep it short, here goes

Last year my car ran 9.96 at 133.4 mph. 1.39 60’ with the crappy 1-5/8” LA headers ( I have W2 heads), and 4.86 gears.

over the winter I built a 9” and put in 4.30 gears as I was going to use NOS. I decided not to use NOS but it was to late as I had the 4.30 gears installed.
I finally built a set of W2 headers. I went with fender exit, 1-3/4” stepped to 1-7/8”.

I changed only 2 things. Bigger headers and gears. I ran 9.98 at 134.8 with a 1.42 60’ this season so far.

the 4.30 hurt my 60’ so I know have 4.86 gears back in. The mph is up 1 so the bigger headers definitely helped.

I hoping to see 1.35 60’ with the 4.86

 

[Rat Bastid]

Comp Cams roller, gross lift .654 intake, .655 exhaust, duration @ .050 269 intake, 276 exhaust installed at 106.0 center line.
13.9:1 compression, 5.13 gear, approx 5000 stall with 9 inch converter, edelbrock victor W2 intake with either a first generation 1050 dominator or a Quick Fuel 1050 dominator style carb, I run both. Tire diameter is 31.5, shifting at 6500, trap rpm in the 1/8 is about 6700, 1/4 around 7000. These trap RPMs are a best guess as I can't recall the exact numbers.

So I made some assumptions. One assumption is that your cam is ground on a 110 LSA. Another is a 2.08 intake valve. From my guesses you should be on a 107 LSA and probably be installed on a 107 ICL and I think a 106 LSA/106 ICL wouldn’t be bad either.

The other thing I saw and forgot to mention was you have a 7 degree split between your intake and exhaust duration. I know that’s been all the rage for 20 years or so, but I think it’s a bad way to make power. It’s another one of those things that make a header numb. I know Billy Godbold said some intersection things about duration splits and the overlap triangle in an article. I know I have it here somewhere. Finding it…that may be an issue.

I also assumed you have W2 heads. The exhaust port on those is too big, as is the valve. IMO, you need to a single pattern cam, probably 272-274 @.050 and put it on a 107 or even a 106 and install it straight up. IMO, then the headers would have a big effect and the power curve would be fatter off the converter and in the gear changes.

I’m going to look for that article and I’m also going to enter your cam numbers into a really simple program I use and see what it looks like.

Just my opinions on why a header change didn’t make any difference on your engine.

 

[rumblefish360]

Yes, find that article by Billy if you can.

 

[B3422w5]

I’ll try my keep it short, here goes

Last year my car ran 9.96 at 133.4 mph. 1.39 60’ with the crappy 1-5/8” LA headers ( I have W2 heads), and 4.86 gears.

over the winter I built a 9” and put in 4.30 gears as I was going to use NOS. I decided not to use NOS but it was to late as I had the 4.30 gears installed.
I finally built a set of W2 headers. I went with fender exit, 1-3/4” stepped to 1-7/8”.

I changed only 2 things. Bigger headers and gears. I ran 9.98 at 134.8 with a 1.42 60’ this season so far.

the 4.30 hurt my 60’ so I know have 4.86 gears back in. The mph is up 1 so the bigger headers definitely helped.

I hoping to see 1.35 60’ with the 4.86

honestly, from reading your posts, and the tiny difference in ET/ mph, it’s hard to form much of an opinion unless you have a good number of outings under your belt, and the DA was the same.
Didn’t you just say very recently you hadn’t even been out yet this year?

 

[pittsburghracer]

I’ll try my keep it short, here goes

Last year my car ran 9.96 at 133.4 mph. 1.39 60’ with the crappy 1-5/8” LA headers ( I have W2 heads), and 4.86 gears.

over the winter I built a 9” and put in 4.30 gears as I was going to use NOS. I decided not to use NOS but it was to late as I had the 4.30 gears installed.
I finally built a set of W2 headers. I went with fender exit, 1-3/4” stepped to 1-7/8”.

I changed only 2 things. Bigger headers and gears. I ran 9.98 at 134.8 with a 1.42 60’ this season so far.

the 4.30 hurt my 60’ so I know have 4.86 gears back in. The mph is up 1 so the bigger headers definitely helped.

I hoping to see 1.35 60’ with the 4.86

60 foot times can be misleading at times. My car had 1.32 sixty foot times with a 1.76 low gear in the transmission. 1.28-1.29 with a 1.80 and 1.26-1.27 with a 1.98 low gear. But ran 6.0’s in the 1/8 with all of them.

 

[Les Gibson]

So I made some assumptions. One assumption is that your cam is ground on a 110 LSA. Another is a 2.08 intake valve. From my guesses you should be on a 107 LSA and probably be installed on a 107 ICL and I think a 106 LSA/106 ICL wouldn’t be bad either.

The other thing I saw and forgot to mention was you have a 7 degree split between your intake and exhaust duration. I know that’s been all the rage for 20 years or so, but I think it’s a bad way to make power. It’s another one of those things that make a header numb. I know Billy Godbold said some intersection things about duration splits and the overlap triangle in an article. I know I have it here somewhere. Finding it…that may be an issue.

I also assumed you have W2 heads. The exhaust port on those is too big, as is the valve. IMO, you need to a single pattern cam, probably 272-274 @.050 and put it on a 107 or even a 106 and install it straight up. IMO, then the headers would have a big effect and the power curve would be fatter off the converter and in the gear changes.

I’m going to look for that article and I’m also going to enter your cam numbers into a really simple program I use and see what it looks like.

Just my opinions on why a header change didn’t make any difference on your engine.

Thank you for the information, I do appreciate it. Definitely food for thought. Yes, I'm running W2 Econo heads that have had some mild work done to them, nothing fancy. I've always felt that something is holding this car back power wise and it could very well be the cam.

 

[Rat Bastid]

Thank you for the information, I do appreciate it. Definitely food for thought. Yes, I'm running W2 Econo heads that have had some mild work done to them, nothing fancy. I've always felt that something is holding this car back power wise and it could very well be the cam.

So did you stay with 2.02 valves or did you go bigger?

 

[justinp61]

I’ll try my keep it short, here goes

Last year my car ran 9.96 at 133.4 mph. 1.39 60’ with the crappy 1-5/8” LA headers ( I have W2 heads), and 4.86 gears.

over the winter I built a 9” and put in 4.30 gears as I was going to use NOS. I decided not to use NOS but it was to late as I had the 4.30 gears installed.
I finally built a set of W2 headers. I went with fender exit, 1-3/4” stepped to 1-7/8”.

I changed only 2 things. Bigger headers and gears. I ran 9.98 at 134.8 with a 1.42 60’ this season so far.

the 4.30 hurt my 60’ so I know have 4.86 gears back in. The mph is up 1 so the bigger headers definitely helped.

I hoping to see 1.35 60’ with the 4.86

The 134.8 was with the 4.30's? What mph has it ran with the 4.86's and new headers?

 

[9secRR]

The 134.8 was with the 4.30's? What mph has it ran with the 4.86's and new headers?

Yes, 134.8 mph was with the 4.30 gears. I just put the 4.86 gears in last week and haven’t made it out yet. August 6 in the next race day.

 

[toolmanmike]

Yes, 134.8 mph was with the 4.30 gears. I just put the 4.86 gears in last week and haven’t made it out yet. August 6 in the next race day.

What's your finish line rpm with the 4.30's?

 

[9secRR]

What's your finish line rpm with the 4.30's?

around 6000 rpm at top end

 

[Rat Bastid]

around 6000 rpm at top end

I forget (or maybe you’ve never posted them) your cam numbers. I’m just curious like that.

 

[9secRR]

Hughes SFT cam. 264/268 @ .050. Lift is 610 with the ductile iron rockers. If I had 1.5 ratio rockers it would be 621/632 lift.

I forget (or maybe you’ve never posted them) your cam numbers. I’m just curious like that.

 

[9secRR]

71 340 block, 3.46 stroke, 4.080 bore, 11.4 compression, W2 heads flow 286 @ 650 lift, victor W2 intake, ductile iron rockers, Hughes solid flat tappet cam listed above, Ron’s toilet.

 

[Les Gibson]

So did you stay with 2.02 valves or did you go bigger?

They have 2.08 intake, 1.65 exhaust. They are supposed to be ' race ported ', whatever that means. This is the engine that was in the car when I bought it in 2019. I haven't done anything to it other that pull the heads this past winter to make sure I didn't have any damage due to a pushrod failure at the last race of last season. Luckily, there wasn't any, so I cleaned the heads and the pistons and reassembled with new head gaskets.

 

[Les Gibson]

So 106 is the intake center line. What is your lobe separation angle?

Edit: is this a 408 inch W2 engine?

I really have no idea what the lobe separation angle is. I'm kind of illiterate when it comes to such things. It's not a 408. It's a 383. 360 bored .070 over, 3.685 stroke from a custom offset crank, using 6 inch small block chevy rods. hard block filled to the bottom of the freeze plugs.

This is supposedly a small block race package that was developed by a gentleman by the name of Lou Jasper from Colebrook, CT. He currently runs a transmission shop out of his garage there. I'm told he developed this package to run Super Gas when that class first came on the scene and ran these small blocks in a Plymouth Arrow and a 68 Cuda. I'm told he was very successful on the East Coast circuit in the 80's and early 90's.

 

[ValiantRacing]

So I made some assumptions. One assumption is that your cam is ground on a 110 LSA. Another is a 2.08 intake valve. From my guesses you should be on a 107 LSA and probably be installed on a 107 ICL and I think a 106 LSA/106 ICL wouldn’t be bad either.

The other thing I saw and forgot to mention was you have a 7 degree split between your intake and exhaust duration. I know that’s been all the rage for 20 years or so, but I think it’s a bad way to make power. It’s another one of those things that make a header numb. I know Billy Godbold said some intersection things about duration splits and the overlap triangle in an article. I know I have it here somewhere. Finding it…that may be an issue.

I also assumed you have W2 heads. The exhaust port on those is too big, as is the valve. IMO, you need to a single pattern cam, probably 272-274 @.050 and put it on a 107 or even a 106 and install it straight up. IMO, then the headers would have a big effect and the power curve would be fatter off the converter and in the gear changes.

I’m going to look for that article and I’m also going to enter your cam numbers into a really simple program I use and see what it looks like.

Just my opinions on why a header change didn’t make any difference on your engine.

I like reading your posts on the subject of headers and cams, do you prefer a single pattern over a split pattern? i have had good success with single pattern cams, plus engines we have done for customers.

 

[Hysteric]

He says… “ you have obviously been listening to dyno guys too much. You need to think about torque, more torque, faster down the track. You have a bigger runner head now, you have lost torque, thus the 3 loss in the 60 foot.
He said a lot of the stuff he is doing, he is telling his head customers to put 1.5 inch tubes on, not even 1 5/8. I was like..are you friggin kidding me..lol
Said he just finished a set of heads on a shoebox Nova that qualified 10th with a 327/ 275 horse motor that they installed couple days before Sonoma last weekend, and in spite of having wheelstand issues car went like 9.99..13 quicker than they had ever been…and still sorting it out.
Guy is without a doubt smart, just goes against everything I have ever though I knew about headers.
Anyhow..
Signed,
Confused in Kalamazoo

Now go read what Larry Widmer has to say.

I never asked him. His big point was do whatever you can to build torque

I tend to agree with that.

 

[flyfish]

Hughes SFT cam. 264/268 @ .050. Lift is 610 with the ductile iron rockers. If I had 1.5 ratio rockers it would be 621/632 lift.

I use that same cam in my car...love it....best so far for me was 10.1 @ 131mph with 28" drag radials @ about 3200 lbs.