So what IS a muscle car?

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lilfontleroy said:
someone has been paying attention to modern muscle cars :thumbsup:
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Drove a 2015 Challenger R/T 6M for 3 years and just sold it a month ago. One of the things that attracted me to it was that the only option beyond the V8 was the Super Track Pack option. Pretty bare bones for a Challenger.

Spent way too much time looking at Challengers and thinking about what I was going to do.

One thing that no one has pointed out yet is the levels the “New Muscle” has taken performance. If performance is the standard that muscle cars are measured and defined by, new muscle does a pretty good job of kicking sand in the face of traditional muscle. Even a V6 Challenger with the 3.6 and A8 is going to run with a stock representation of a 340 Dart while still being a better all around car. And a V6 Challenger isn’t even on the radar for being a “Muscle Car”.

A lowly 5.7 Challenger similar to mine ran a 13.7 in the quarter according to a magazine, which isn’t far off the numbers magazines were getting for Hemi cars back in the day. If it can run with a stock Hemi, shouldn’t it be in consideration of the label? And show me a stock Muscle Car that can keep up with a Hellcat.

For me, don’t really care if the new crop of performance cars is called a muscle car or not. My only point is, if performance is the criteria, the new stuff shouldn’t be ignored.
 
DionR said:
Drove a 2015 Challenger R/T 6M for 3 years and just sold it a month ago. One of the things that attracted me to it was that the only option beyond the V8 was the Super Track Pack option. Pretty bare bones for a Challenger.

Spent way too much time looking at Challengers and thinking about what I was going to do.

One thing that no one has pointed out yet is the levels the “New Muscle” has taken performance. If performance is the standard that muscle cars are measured and defined by, new muscle does a pretty good job of kicking sand in the face of traditional muscle. Even a V6 Challenger with the 3.6 and A8 is going to run with a stock representation of a 340 Dart while still being a better all around car. And a V6 Challenger isn’t even on the radar for being a “Muscle Car”.

A lowly 5.7 Challenger similar to mine ran a 13.7 in the quarter according to a magazine, which isn’t far off the numbers magazines were getting for Hemi cars back in the day. If it can run with a stock Hemi, shouldn’t it be in consideration of the label? And show me a stock Muscle Car that can keep up with a Hellcat.

For me, don’t really care if the new crop of performance cars is called a muscle car or not. My only point is, if performance is the criteria, the new stuff shouldn’t be ignored.
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If performance is the criteria, then some 4 door 4cyl cars would be muscle cars. A lot of muscle cars only ran 15's back in the day, and how many 4 door V6's run 14's today?
 
318willrun said:
If performance is the criteria, then some 4 door 4cyl cars would be muscle cars. A lot of muscle cars only ran 15's back in the day, and how many 4 door V6's run 14's today?
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Exactly. What used to be an acceptable time for a muscle car in the past is now considered pretty slow. But the crop of new muscle is generally much faster than many 4 door V6 cars and thus are a step up in the muscle department.

Note that I am not advocating for the only criteria to be performance, only commenting on the issue of if that is the only factor used to define a “Muscle Car” then someone needs to acknowledge that the new cars have more muscle than the old one when comparing OEM builds.
 
Muscle cars finished being produced in the 70’s. After that they are just fast cars, some very fast!
IMO
 
70chall440 said:
Yes along with E bodies.. They were all considered a part of the pony car effort, has nothing to do with engine size, its about body style.
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That's right. I had forgotten the E bodies were considered pony cars. That's a dang BIG pony car. lol
 
I always thought it was 1 horsepower per cubic inch.
Chevy 409
Chrysler 426 hemi
Chevy 427
Chevy 427 & 454
First muscle..... Chrysler 300 with a 354 / 355 horsepower.
Dream on 64 GTO
 
Dfr360cuda said:
I'm sure I forgot more too.
But GTO was not the first muscle car like they always say.
And Mustang was not the first pony car.
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No, technically, it was one of the Chrysler 300 letter cars of the 50s.
 
Dfr360cuda said:
Toyotas run in NASCAR
Toyota is the official car of NHRA.
I'll still never buy one.
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Just say'n, if it's HP specific, then all the Civics, Camry's, Base model Neons, Corrolla's are all factory Muscle Cars. Ummm... not really what I have in mind when I think of factory Muscle Cars :D
 
Dfr360cuda said:
I'm sure I forgot more too.
But GTO was not the first muscle car like they always say.
And Mustang was not the first pony car.
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I was told once, the GTO is called the first muscle car because there was a company wide edict which said "no engines over 400 CUI in midsized cars
So the good people at pontiac grabbed a 403 CUI, labeled it a 399 and dropped her in a midsized car

(Gimme a minute to see if I can back that memory up)

Edit:
Found the book I had in mind...turns out I was mixing two brand X models, the 64 GTO and the 65 buick skylark grand sport

20200929_184406.jpg


20200929_184518.jpg
 
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318willrun said:
Just say'n, if it's HP specific, then all the Civics, Camry's, Base model Neons, Corrolla's are all factory Muscle Cars. Ummm... not really what I have in mind when I think of factory Muscle Cars :D
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FABO......... 50,000 members / 50,000 opinions.
I don't consider a rice rod a muscle car.
 
Dfr360cuda said:
I always thought it was 1 horsepower per cubic inch.
Chevy 409
Chrysler 426 hemi
Chevy 427
Chevy 427 & 454
First muscle..... Chrysler 300 with a 354 / 355 horsepower.
Dream on 64 GTO
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So a Roadrunner isn’t a muscle car unless it had a Hemi?
 
Dfr360cuda said:
FABO......... 50,000 members / 50,000 opinions.
I don't consider a rice rod a muscle car.
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Me either... just say'n the criteria can't be just HP to cubic inch. IF that's the only criteria, then the 4 door 40 mpg corolla is in ... LOL. I'm just having fun
 
Back in the day, "musclecar" evolved name wise and yes it as about high HP in a mid size car. Peple an credit the GTO ifthey lke. It was a name. The max wedge in a 62 B body was also such, but with NO decal ot emblem, or muscle name.
A big HP engine in a Pony-ac Catalina was fats for its day, but not by definitiona muscle car.
Modern HP cars? Yes they are fast, tehnology marches on. I don't a them muscle cars, just super fast modern cars with musclecar names!!! lol
 
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