Solid vs Hydraulic

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6pkScamp

6pkScamp

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I'm sure this question has come up before. I'm building a small block stroker, street /strip. Already had a solid lift cam go bad even after following all the breakin procedures. Now I'm going to a roller. Any imput on solid vs hydraulic.
Thanks
 
IMO - if you're considering runnig a hydraulic roller - just skip the expense and run a solid flat tappet. The hydraulic roller is nice but the lifters are heavy, they still wil lcompress and limit ramp speed and rpm, and the pushrod angle really sucks (have the pushrod holes enlarged in any head you use).
If you run a solid roller - which would be my recommendation if the break in still frightens you - then "do it right (again, IMO)" and have the block's lifter bores bushed, keep the cam profile in the "street" zone, and run a high quality set of lifters. A good solid roller, set up properly, will provide a lot of milage without rebuilding or wearing out springs and make a ton of power.
 
I am a fan of solid lift either in a roller or just a flat tappet. I always use the zinc and I only use stock springs for the break in..After that I put the good ones on and let her rip..

If you are just after a maintenance free type of setup and not looking for every hp then grab the hydraulic...
 
The Hyd. Is very flexable for street driven rides.

Describe the last/current build.
 
Oldmanmopar said:
If you need to ask this question. Then you need go with hydraulics. They are a friendlier choice.
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The reason I asked this question is the machine shop is pushing the hyd. I told him that goes against everything Ive read. I followed hughes breakin procedure by the letter inner springs removed and used there breakin oil, carefully checking adjustments several times and still lost two lobes. I have a 260 dur and 630 lift solid roller picked out. I just needed some reinforcement on my decision.

Thanks to all that had some imput
 
6pkScamp said:
............. I have a 260 dur and 630 lift solid roller picked out. I just needed some reinforcement on my decision............
Click to expand...

Just FYI, a solid roller of that size will need some pretty fat springs, which are not easy to fit in a small block. It can be done, but most springs for a cam that size are at least 1.55" in diameter and will require a high quality rocker to survive under the high spring pressures (probably about 220lbs on the seat and 600lbs open I'm guessing). Just something to consider when pricing stuff out.
 
6pkScamp said:
The reason I asked this question is the machine shop is pushing the hyd. I told him that goes against everything Ive read. I followed hughes breakin procedure by the letter inner springs removed and used there breakin oil, carefully checking adjustments several times and still lost two lobes. I have a 260 dur and 630 lift solid roller picked out. I just needed some reinforcement on my decision.

Thanks to all that had some imput
Click to expand...
you will be hard pressed to touch the power potential of a soil roller and if your car is doing heavy track time then go for it, but if you do mostly street time I would go a different direction...my two cents.
 
flyfish said:
Just FYI, a solid roller of that size will need some pretty fat springs, which are not easy to fit in a small block. It can be done, but most springs for a cam that size are at least 1.55" in diameter and will require a high quality rocker to survive under the high spring pressures (probably about 220lbs on the seat and 600lbs open I'm guessing). Just something to consider when pricing stuff out.
Click to expand...

Already have the heads Indybrocks with their large valve and porting combo. I would purchase the springs from the cam supplier to match their specs. Thats what I did before with the hughes stuff the entire valve train was there product. The next build will be lunati.
 
Hughes has some of the most aggressive lobes available and I've known of engines that they simply could not be made to work in using factory lifter bores. The problem is not every block is machined that well. The lifter bores may not be positioned properly or they may have wear that allows the lifter to "tip" slightly and break the oil wedge. Did you measure the lifter bores and the lifters? Did you verify lifter rotation while assembling?
I will normally spec lobes designed for the .875 Ford lifter unless it's a full race effort beceause they are not quite as fast, but close. Which means they have similar area under the curve but are more forgiving both in terms of alignment and required spring pressure. I also verify all the lifters rotate easilly and many times this means swapping between bores until they all turn.
I would not be worried about using another flat tappet. I would be concerned about using another Hughes in that block especially if it's a large model.
 
moper said:
Hughes has some of the most aggressive lobes available and I've known of engines that they simply could not be made to work in using factory lifter bores. The problem is not every block is machined that well. The lifter bores may not be positioned properly or they may have wear that allows the lifter to "tip" slightly and break the oil wedge. Did you measure the lifter bores and the lifters? Did you verify lifter rotation while assembling?
I will normally spec lobes designed for the .875 Ford lifter unless it's a full race effort beceause they are not quite as fast, but close. Which means they have similar area under the curve but are more forgiving both in terms of alignment and required spring pressure. I also verify all the lifters rotate easilly and many times this means swapping between bores until they all turn.
I would not be worried about using another flat tappet. I would be concerned about using another Hughes in that block especially if it's a large model.[/QUOTE

I spend extra time on the lifter bores making sure they were not sticking and rotated. The cam was 250 dur and 600 lift with 1.6 rockers.
Click to expand...
 
I,m running a CompCams solid roller in my 360(stroked to 410c.i).This is my second go-round after hydrailicing the first build after 2 yrs running hard.With this build I had the lifter bores bushed,Comps solid lifters and ProMagnum rockers(1.5).These are on my worked Eddy heads,that were clearanced for custom Manton pushrods,also had a mild P&P.Cam is 252/258 with a .631 lift,useing Comp springs #953-16,Spring seats #4772-16.Hope you can get things figured out.Good luck
 
(Quote)I spend extra time on the lifter bores making sure they were not sticking and rotated. The cam was 250 dur and 600 lift with 1.6 rockers.

With the 1.6 rockers on a .600 lift cam,wouldn,t that put you in the 800plus lift category?
 
say you got a .600 cam with 1.5 .600/ 1.5=.400 lift at cam

.400 x 1.6= .640
 
flyfish said:
Just FYI, a solid roller of that size will need some pretty fat springs, which are not easy to fit in a small block. It can be done, but most springs for a cam that size are at least 1.55" in diameter and will require a high quality rocker to survive under the high spring pressures (probably about 220lbs on the seat and 600lbs open I'm guessing). Just something to consider when pricing stuff out.
Click to expand...

The springs don't need to be that aggressive. I have RHS Heads done by Brian at IMM that are set up for a Solid Roller .634 Lift. Spring pressures are 145lbs Closed and 510 Open.

MOPER; IMO - if you're considering runnig a hydraulic roller - just skip the expense and run a solid flat tappet. The hydraulic roller is nice but the lifters are heavy, they still wil lcompress and limit ramp speed and rpm, and the pushrod angle really sucks (have the pushrod holes enlarged in any head you use).
If you run a solid roller - which would be my recommendation if the break in still frightens you - then "do it right (again, IMO)" and have the block's lifter bores bushed, keep the cam profile in the "street" zone, and run a high quality set of lifters. A good solid roller, set up properly, will provide a lot of milage without rebuilding or wearing out springs and make a ton of power.
Click to expand...

I am using Manton 3/8 pushrods that oil through with 5/16 tips on the RHS Heads. The Pushrod holes in the heads were not touched. They must be a lil bigger than the rest. I am also using Brian's Solid Roller Lifters that have the oil provisions that squirt right on the roller. I use oil thru pushrods on all my LA builds to keep pressurized oil on the ball and cup of the Rocker. The valve adjustment holds very well for long periods of time since I have been doing this.
 
pettybludart said:
Is this true for solid roller cams too?So my solid roller .631 with 1.5 rockers is actually only .400 lift?I might have been mis-informed.:violent1:
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.400 is the lift at the cam lobe...I just used that number cause it is easy...

cam lobe lift .400 x the rocker ratio. 1.5 = .600
cam lobe lift .400 x the rocker ratio 1.6 = .640

.631 / 1.5 = 0.420666667
 
Mad Dart said:
The springs don't need to be that aggressive. I have RHS Heads done by Brian at IMM that are set up for a Solid Roller .634 Lift. Spring pressures are 145lbs Closed and 510 Open.
.....
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Lots of factors play into it (weight of the valve train, RPM, ramp speed, etc), but as long as you can control the valve and not bounce the lifters you're good. Bouncing a roller lifter will destroy the axles in a hurry. 145 on the seat is like flat tappet territory...very interesting. I suppose it has a gentle closing ramp :dontknow:...idk, I'm not a professional engine builder.
 
flyfish said:
Lots of factors play into it (weight of the valve train, RPM, ramp speed, etc), but as long as you can control the valve and not bounce the lifters you're good. Bouncing a roller lifter will destroy the axles in a hurry. 145 on the seat is like flat tappet territory...very interesting. I suppose it has a gentle closing ramp :dontknow:...idk, I'm not a professional engine builder.
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Im going to look at my paperwork. Maybe I am mistaken. I know the open pressure is for sure 510lbs. Duration is not as crazy thought I should mention it. It is 242@50 The heads cam etc were spec'd out for my TT Build with 10PSI or so boost. It would also work well with an NOS Application.
 
I ran down to the shop and found the set up paperwork. Damn I'm getting old my memory is shot. lol

Closed pressure is 195Lbs and open is 510lbs.....
 
pettybludart said:
(Quote)I spend extra time on the lifter bores making sure they were not sticking and rotated. The cam was 250 dur and 600 lift with 1.6 rockers.

With the 1.6 rockers on a .600 lift cam,wouldn,t that put you in the 800plus lift category?
Click to expand...

The lift was five something and with the 1.6 came to 600/610. As far as the springs and the rest of the valve train I went with their recommendations at Hughes.
 
If you followed everything the only part left would be one of two things I can think of:
Either you turned the engine over a lot and wiped off any break in lube on the surfaces priot to it firing and getting up to rpm (or it didn't fire immediately).
Or the lifter face was not contacting the lobe as designed because either the cam bore or lifter bores were not machined perfectly. It does happen. Any shop that has does lifter bore bushing will tell you the angles are off as much as the decks being high or head chambers being larger than factory spec. Personally I'm not a fan of going with a higher ratio rocker than the cam was designed for. Adding ratio makes it harder for the lifter to start lifting (lost leverage) and speeds up the rate of life for a given cam (it has to go further in the same amount of rotational degrees). Some manufacturers have special lobes for a higher ratio for that reason.
 
moper said:
If you followed everything the only part left would be one of two things I can think of:
Either you turned the engine over a lot and wiped off any break in lube on the surfaces priot to it firing and getting up to rpm (or it didn't fire immediately).
Or the lifter face was not contacting the lobe as designed because either the cam bore or lifter bores were not machined perfectly. It does happen. Any shop that has does lifter bore bushing will tell you the angles are off as much as the decks being high or head chambers being larger than factory spec. Personally I'm not a fan of going with a higher ratio rocker than the cam was designed for. Adding ratio makes it harder for the lifter to start lifting (lost leverage) and speeds up the rate of life for a given cam (it has to go further in the same amount of rotational degrees). Some manufacturers have special lobes for a higher ratio for that reason.
Click to expand...

I appreciate all your input on my issue. I hoped that the roller would take some of the possibility of failures out of the equation. By the way the motor on breaking did have to be shut down, the float stuck and started flooding the motor
 
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