Squareback vs round back alternator?

[Mattax]

Yes the transistorized version of the voltage regulator that looks like the mechanical regulator should work with that alternator and alternator wiring.

If I recall correctly 1960 may have used a starter with a remote starter solenoid.

I'll have to try to enlarge the shop manual photos and your drawings. They look great. Just hard to read because the forum softwaree shrunk them. If you can turn them horizontal before loading to the forum, they won't get shrunk as much by the forum softeware. I'll spend some time looking over your phtos and information this evening.

 

[Mattax]

They show only this starter / ignition switch:
There's an additional GRD contact. May it work the same way if I don't connect GRD or do we have the worng installed in the car!?

They are selling a generic switch. Ground is not used.

Key Off: No continuity between BAT and any other terminal

Key 1 click clockwise = RUN,
Continuity between BAT and Ign 1.
Continuity between BAT and Accessory
No continuity between BAT and other terminals

Key further clockwise for Start should be a momentary switch. A spring should be attempting to return the key to Run.
Continuity between BAT and Ign 2
Continuity between BAT and Start

Maybe this gives also a hint to whether the field strengths is controlled by switching the positive feed, or by the negative connection ...?

No. For that we look at the alternator

and we should look at the regulator and regulator wiring.
If you can make a larger or sideways photo of the wiring diagram, we can be sure its not different than '62

According to the Tech booklets, the alternator wiring looks the same.
1960 Imperial and Chrysler Service Repair Book - Alternator Service
The regulator adjustment is a little different. So if you have the original 1960 regulator, the shop manual and is booklet are the ones to follow.
In 1961 the regulator adjustment changed a little.

Another difference we see in the illustration on that page

Iit looks like some (all?) 1960 models still used a starter with a seperate solenoid. You shop manual will clarify that. And we can also see what is on the car.
That broken yellow wire looks like it may have been an attempt to wire in a starter that uses an internal solenoid. With more photos of the starter we can figure it out.

 

[Mattax]

There is also no ignition ballast / IGN coil resistor installed in this car. But there should be regarding all wire drawings so far incl. the one from @Mattax which is from 1962:

Yes all points type ignitions must have the ballast resistor.
The resistor controls current through the coil keeping it from overheating. It also helps protect the points.
Only much newer systems, such HEI, have solid state control of coil current.

The resistor is bypassed during start because battery voltage is much reduced by the starter load.
During start battery voltage can drop between 9 and 11 Volts. That's why the key switch connects a second ignition terminal during start.

 

[Dana67Dart]

Maybe this gives also a hint to whether the field strengths is controlled by switching the positive feed, or by the negative connection

The alternator you have uses a high side control. The 12v to the field is varied between 5v and 12v. The higher the voltage the more current the alternator can put out while maintaining a voltage in the 12 to 14v range.

The 2 field wire ( isolated field) use lowside control. One field wire has 12v from the battery (probably through the ignition switch but I don't recall) the other field wire runs to the electronic VR (triangular connector) and has the ground varied. The closer to full ground the closer to 12v the alternator will see, the more current the alternator can put out while maintaining a voltage in the 12 to 14v range

 

[Mattax]

Putting your two drawings together

With the key in RUN, the 85 terminal should get power. If so, then the regulator will be able toet power through the 30 terminal.

 

[Dana67Dart]

Matt shouldn't the trigger for the relay be ignition 1 (run) as ignition 2 (start) should drop out after the key is let go from a start event?

 

[CLBER]

Yes the transistorized version of the voltage regulator that looks like the mechanical regulator should work with that alternator and alternator wiring.

If I recall correctly 1960 may have used a starter with a remote starter solenoid.

I'll have to try to enlarge the shop manual photos and your drawings. They look great. Just hard to read because the forum softwaree shrunk them. If you can turn them horizontal before loading to the forum, they won't get shrunk as much by the forum softeware. I'll spend some time looking over your phtos and information this evening.

Thanks for the hint about the pictures, now I understand how that works.
Here are the pictures taken horizontal:

 

[CLBER]

They are selling a generic switch. Ground is not used.

View attachment 1715889853
Key Off: No continuity between BAT and any other terminal

Key 1 click clockwise = RUN,
Continuity between BAT and Ign 1.
Continuity between BAT and Accessory
No continuity between BAT and other terminals

Key further clockwise for Start should be a momentary switch. A spring should be attempting to return the key to Run.
Continuity between BAT and Ign 2
Continuity between BAT and Start



No. For that we look at the alternator
View attachment 1715889859

and we should look at the regulator and regulator wiring.
If you can make a larger or sideways photo of the wiring diagram, we can be sure its not different than '62

According to the Tech booklets, the alternator wiring looks the same.
1960 Imperial and Chrysler Service Repair Book - Alternator Service
The regulator adjustment is a little different. So if you have the original 1960 regulator, the shop manual and is booklet are the ones to follow.
In 1961 the regulator adjustment changed a little.

Another difference we see in the illustration on that page
View attachment 1715889866


Iit looks like some (all?) 1960 models still used a starter with a seperate solenoid. You shop manual will clarify that. And we can also see what is on the car.
That broken yellow wire looks like it may have been an attempt to wire in a starter that uses an internal solenoid. With more photos of the starter we can figure it out.

Here is the wiring diagram from 60', same than this car. If I browse the shops they offer round neck alt only for the 60' and 61' models and as of 62' they offer square neck alt too. I also attached the starter.

 

[CLBER]

Yes all points type ignitions must have the ballast resistor.
The resistor controls current through the coil keeping it from overheating. It also helps protect the points.
Only much newer systems, such HEI, have solid state control of coil current.

The resistor is bypassed during start because battery voltage is much reduced by the starter load.
During start battery voltage can drop between 9 and 11 Volts. That's why the key switch connects a second ignition terminal during start.

Alright, so I'll have to order a resistor as well and I'm thinking about changing the coil, spark plugs and cables and the condenser too. Like that it's all freshed up.
As for the resistor I cross checked the part number from the service manual: #1889545 which turns into #2196316 and this shows me this resistor:

And this coil (#1688212)

 

[CLBER]

The alternator you have uses a high side control. The 12v to the field is varied between 5v and 12v. The higher the voltage the more current the alternator can put out while maintaining a voltage in the 12 to 14v range.

The 2 field wire ( isolated field) use lowside control. One field wire has 12v from the battery (probably through the ignition switch but I don't recall) the other field wire runs to the electronic VR (triangular connector) and has the ground varied. The closer to full ground the closer to 12v the alternator will see, the more current the alternator can put out while maintaining a voltage in the 12 to 14v range

What is the VR (triangular connector)? Maybe my English tech vocab isn't good enough to understand all the tech therms. Regarding the wire diagram, current flows (R5) from alt FLD to to the resistor and from there to the ign coil (J2 A) and to the ign switch IGN2 (J3).

 

[CLBER]

Putting your two drawings together
View attachment 1715889869

With the key in RUN, the 85 terminal should get power. If so, then the regulator will be able toet power through the 30 terminal.

Thank you very much, your drawing looks correct. The connection at the maxi fuse that goes to the dash is what I want to find out. Regarding the book it should go to the AMM "S" and from there via J1 to ignition switch BAT and from the there it distributes current via IGN, AUX, ST and IGN2.

 

[CLBER]

The wiring looks a bit more messy now, because I have removed the protection around to check on signs of burn or cracked wires. Once everything is solved I put it back in order.

 

[CLBER]

I'd like to go for this spark plug wires.
Any hints about quality? Here walker products aren't common.

 

[Mattax]

New parts. Very few new products are made as well as the factory parts.
I would only replace damaged or worn parts.
If you have to use that coil and ballast resistor its probably OK. Original resistor specification was 0.7 Ohms?
Do you have a photo of the current coil and connections?

Found just a photo of an original 1960 engine compartment. But can't see all of the wiring.

 

[CLBER]

New parts. Very few new products are made as well as the factory parts.
I would only replace damaged or worn parts.
If you have to use that coil and ballast resistor its probably OK. Original resistor specification was 0.7 Ohms?
Do you have a photo of the current coil and connections?

No specs visible on the coil, I have checked carefully.
It's the same thing here with very few products are made as well as the factory parts. Mostly scrap. I would like to use OEM parts but my network for US car parts are very poor.
As for the resistor, there were no specifications in the service manual, only the reference # and I took it ask the www. It was #1889545 which turns into #2196316 and with that nr I could find it.
Of course I don't know the credibility for those website, but it looks as it could match.
Btw I won't pay 195 USD ... The one I have found is 3 USD. I mean this is not a specific part, could use any resitance that matches the specs. But since I'm ordering other parts I threw in the basket.

 

[Mattax]

This is a big help.

We see an original starter. The starter solenoid is attached to the starter. From the 1960 diagram, there was no starter relay yet.

Heavy Battery cable to the starter.
At that starter terminal, it is joined with the H-1 wire and A-1 wire.
H-1 is power the horn relay for the horn.
A-1 wire going to the Ammeter's S terminal. This is battery power to everything else. Also is charging wire while driving.

 

[Mattax]

No specs visible on the coil, I have checked carefully.

Yes. Usually only the part number. Specs will be in your shop manual.
The most important part to find new old stock will be the distributor points and condensor.

It was #1889545 which turns into #2196316 and with that nr I could find it.

I can check that against new 1960s shop manuals.

Other end of repair positive wire should connect to ballast resistor. Where that is located, I don't know.

 

[Mattax]

Matt shouldn't the trigger for the relay be ignition 1 (run) as ignition 2 (start) should drop out after the key is let go from a start event?

Yes.

looking closely at the 1960 drawing, Ignition 2 terminal is on the left, Ignition 1 terminal is in the center. Same as later years.

 

[Mattax]

S-2 connects Starter Solenoid direct to Key Switch.

if if the key switch is correct for 1960.
The Key Switch illustration may show the view from the switch connector.
Reverse it for a view that matches the back of the switch.

Later years Auxillery was renamed Accessory.

 

[Mattax]

Shop manual indicates a wire R-4 connecting the grounded brush to the voltage regulator ground.
That might have been done with a ring terminal on both ends of the wire.

Your wire to body is the same idea, done differently.

 

[Mattax]

What is the VR (triangular connector)?

The triangular connector is a way to identify the 1970-1976 voltage regulator that controls the field ground with an isolated field alternator.

Regarding the wire diagram, current flows (R5) from alt FLD to to the resistor and from there to the ign coil (J2 A) and to the ign switch IGN2 (J3).

Electrons flow that way (toward high voltage). In common conversation we usually describe current flow the opposite way. So I will write that current from battery (12.5 Volts) or Alternator (14 Volts) flows through power wire (J-1) into key switch. from Key switch out the ignition terminal to the junction on the ballast resistor. At the juntion, current divides. Some flows to the voltage regulator and some flows through the resistor to the coil, then through the distributor points to ground.

 

[Mattax]

Here's a rework of the 1960 main power.
I don't know the 1960 wire colors and sizes so I guessed or made them black. I think its helpful to understand how it was originally set up.

Then we can figure out how the changes fit in.
The maxi -fuse is in the A1 line. That's a reasonable safety change. 40 amps might be more appropriate unless there are some very poor connections or wires downstream.

 

[Dana67Dart]

Regarding the wire diagram, current flows (R5) from alt FLD to to the resistor and from there to the ign coil (J2 A) and to the ign switch IGN2 (J3)

The direction is backward.

Voltage is supplied FROM ign switch TO resister and voltage regulator. FROM voltage regulator TO the field terminal of the alternator.

I'm not quoting pin or wire, just general flow.

Matt, I Guess I should have read more before answering the same question. I almost went for the current flow vs voltage supply path

 

[CLBER]

The direction is backward.

Voltage is supplied FROM ign switch TO resister and voltage regulator. FROM voltage regulator TO the field terminal of the alternator.

I'm not quoting pin or wire, just general flow.

Ok, thank you. I agree.

 

[CLBER]

Here's a rework of the 1960 main power.
I don't know the 1960 wire colors and sizes so I guessed or made them black. I think its helpful to understand how it was originally set up.
View attachment 1715890405

Then we can figure out how the changes fit in.
The maxi -fuse is in the A1 line. That's a reasonable safety change. 40 amps might be more appropriate unless there are some very poor connections or wires downstream.

Thank you very much, that is really helpful. I figured out and reworked as much poor connections as possible.
If I understand right the additional relay reduces ballast in J2 wiring to the dash and guides the biggest charing load in the eng compartment wiring, right?