Suggestions for new design Aluminum Mopar SB clean slate (kind of) cylinder heads

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This is simple. W2 knockoffs. Along with matching valve train parts, intake manifolds and headers.

OR you could go the simple route and make a HP aluminum head for the slant 6.
 
Johnny Mac said:
Thank you all for the suggestions. All are appreciated. Please remember goal here is gain some performance while providing you with economically sensible crate engines. It's not to design a 9000 RPM, 900 HP, SB with 13:1 compression that would cost 16K, and we'd sell 5 a year of. If someone wants 800+ HP...we sell Gen III's. Gotta Draw the line somewhere. Some may call it weak, I call it practical. I will note the set here flowing 290 are ported. We'll probably use an as cast version on the current alum head 408, and maybe do a ported set on a bigger one. time will tell. I'm really excited about it. Glad to see the interest!
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Hogwash. Go big or go home. And where' my slant head? LOL
 
RustyRatRod said:
This is simple. W2 knockoffs. Along with matching valve train parts, intake manifolds and headers.

OR you could go the simple route and make a HP aluminum head for the slant 6.
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That’s all they would need to do. And make the rockers for them.

I will never understand why these guys think an offset rocker is a mortal sin.

Why build a head with a junk rocker system that even GM doesn’t use and that has been exposed as a weak link?

I won’t even get into the G3 Hemi nonsense.

If you are going to build a head why make ANOTHER head that is a copy of another head??

Makes zero sense to me.
 
Rat Bastid said:
That’s all they would need to do. And make the rockers for them.

I will never understand why these guys think an offset rocker is a mortal sin.

Why build a head with a junk rocker system that even GM doesn’t use and that has been exposed as a weak link?

I won’t even get into the G3 Hemi nonsense.

If you are going to build a head why make ANOTHER head that is a copy of another head??

Makes zero sense to me.
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Kinda what I was gettin at. Who makes a copy of a W2? Nobody. And that's arguably the best flowing head there is for the small block. But alas, they want to make something that everybody else does. I mean why NOT make something that can go 8500 RPM and make 600 plus HP because no one else does. That's what's needed, not another another. lol
 
What we need is a Edelbrock victor type head that is available and priced to sell ! A W2 remake would be great also.
 
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Fact is you would need to offer an intake and rocker system to make a better/the best head. If we know raising the roof is necessary.. then generally it would need a raised runner , at the least , and that's an intake manifold requirement right there. If it were oval port.. do we want one option or two? Typical W2 is 185cc? Typical w2 has a partially fkd up bowl as cast, so fix that 'more meat in the bowl' . For instance non offset taller oval port 195cc ootb 320 cfm version for a nice 4" motor...maybe a smaller one 180cc 'more meat in bowl taller port' ootb 290 cfm version for street 340/360. Is the production of the rocker system more costly than casting new manifolds? Would one do/be effective enough over utilizing both?
How big, or small for that matter. The rhs la max worked well, just heavy and the intake port could have been a little bigger to get into the 320cfm range...but for it's size it was a good performance head.
Speed master aluminum ends up near 185-190 after goin through the motions .
 
Johnny Mac said:
I would love to hear things you dislike about the other few heads on the market, or would change.
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The original New Zealand made EQ heads, granted they are no longer on the market
(Unfortunately) but come to mind here:

1) that they aren’t made anymore
2) that they were only available in iron
3) that the rocker stud pedestals were on the small side and came drilled for 5/16” studs (should to be beefier and drilled for 3/8” at minimum)
4) the pushrod pinch was substantial

Aluminum Magnum style heads that accept LA intake, Magnum or preferred LA style valve covers, and standard exhaust, Chevy rockers/valvetrain, factory bracket mounting but machined on the head ends as much as possible for clearance for alternator etc With some of the other attention to details being mentioned.

For the up to 500 horsepower crowd utilizing Magnum blocks that want an assembled crate, a long block, or a short block and plan to do it themselves.

Readily available, not on back order etc, reasonably priced.
Sounds too good to be true
 
RustyRatRod said:
This is simple. W5 knockoffs. Along with matching valve train parts, intake manifolds and headers.
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Corrected above….

An oval port head isn’t a good idea IMO because of the intake manifold limitations. Better off sticking with the common rectangle port. The wide attaching hardware holes of the W series head limit intakes again. Having the meat to move the holes is good. Few will move the holes.
 
Did you guys read?


4. Must be magnum head -ish based. I cannot get into weird W2 ports, completely moving the pushrod holes, etc. These are primary going in 500HP and down cars, so they must fit without weird custom headers, use avail intakes, etc.
 
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MOPAROFFICIAL said:
So how'd that work out?
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Messy as anticipated, but still good suggestions and info! It's simply what I'd refer to as premium mainstream, vs Luxury/exotic. Everyone WANTS a Ferrari....what everyone BUYS is a Challenger/Camaro/Mustang. Novelty on the Ferrari starts to wear off when the they guy that unknowingly bought it starts to get into the $3000 oil changes, the insurance cost, the fact he can't get it over his driveway lip in the street. Ya'll are the wise of the wise, and the experienced of the experienced. If i was designing a Race engine, all the shaft rocker and W2 comments would be valid, but i'm simply not. Just need people to remember, our goal is to sell a bunch of great engines, not a few, 20,000 exotic race engines. You guys know W2's take different headers, Most mainstream customers do not. We can't have a guy that inherited his dads duster, buy our engine, then call back furious because his only out for headers is to have a set made for $2000. And it also makes 6 inches of vacuum, so now his brakes don't work, and it's 5 inches taller, so he has to cut a hole in the hood. Thanks to those participating!
 
Johnny Mac said:
All,

Time for our mopar sb lineup to get some love. I'd like to ask the masses to chime in with suggestions / observations for a BluePrint Engines Mopar SB cylinder head. (with a catch of course)

Here are some facts that are Non negotiable. Some of you won't love the "Limitations" , your opinions are welcome, but these are things I CANNOT change, based on block availability.

1. These will use pushrod oiling, and have stud mounted rockers. LA blocks in the world for a company of our Size are too sparse to use deck oiling or shaft rockers. Not interested in the cost of shaft rockers, or trying to oil shaft rockers through the pushrods. Just is what it is.
2. I hope to utilize the LA intake manifold bolt pattern opposed to magnum. Opens up aftermarket intake availability. I think the intake bolts (LA vs magnum) occupy the same realestate, so there won't be enough meat to machine both at the same time. has to be 1 or the other. correct me if i'm wrong.
3. Keeping in mind we're an engine manufacture first, not a head company....the idea is to use these on our engines first....and offer them to the aftermarket as capacity allows.
4. Must be magnum head -ish based. I cannot get into weird W2 ports, completely moving the pushrod holes, etc. These are primary going in 500HP and down cars, so they must fit without weird custom headers, use avail intakes, etc.

outside of the above, I would love to hear things you dislike about the other few heads on the market, or would change. EX: do the magnum edelbrocks have missing bolt bosses vs an LA? are magnum based heads fatter somewhere an LA isn't, so they make it hard to bolt on OE accessories. (may be completely false, just throwing out examples)

Should be a nice little 290 ish CFM street/strip head with a 2.08 intake valve that does everything we need it to do, w/o getting too exotic.

thanks everyone in advance for the input.
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This is a tough one Johnny. While there aren’t a lot of offerings for the SBM, the one that are out there cover the bases. Barley, but there covered.

I’ll list my complaints on various heads.

Edelbrock and most everyone else really is the length of the head interferes with the alternator installation. This is really annoying! There is no reason the head should do this. It doesn’t need to be cast this way. It’s a waste of aluminum and a PIA for the end user.

Low valve cover rail. Just a smidge higher.
Small cylinder head runners in cc’s.
Valve train geometry.
If possible, the ability to run a shaft rocker.
Valve spring size can be an issue in its width and height. The spring pockets ability to use a 1.55 spring and ability of a 2.00 spring height need not be a OOTB ability but obtainable easy enough.

The niche market for the SBM head has a missing head in between the Edelbrock Victor and a well ported Edelbrock/Speedmaster head as cast.

I joked above on the remark I made when I quoted RustyRatRod on the W5. The W2/5 head is a very old design race head. This should not be copied in anyway.
 
@Johnny Mac

Best of luck in this endeavor. Creating a “Tweener” head while using standard bolt holes for off the shelf intakes and exhaust is not going to be easy.

I think lessons learned and read about on other heads are your guide line. Some lack the ability to accept larger valves, lack of metal for porting, thin decks that have the valve seats cracking and chamber design are on the fore front of complaint issues.

The pipe dream here is a worthy W5 replacement. That was a (old) worthy cylinder head design of the time with very poor execution. Not MoPar’s fault really. The castings stink and the metal itself is horrible. A poor grade or aluminum.

The W series ports should not be copied for street use. A better route IMO is a ported Trick Flow head port and used as a as cast port for the BP head with the ability to further port the heads.

I’d like to see the above in about a 210/220 cc intake runner head.

I don’t know if this is possible. I see the Chevrolet heads can be obtained like this and don’t know why a MoPar head can not be.

But that’s my take on the “Tweener” head since Edelbrock and Speedmaster have good street heads that can be well ported and then the race Victor which is pretty bad *** OOTB.

I’m not sure this fits your search, but thanks for taking the time to read my reply and asking the forum on this topic.

Rob

PS, enough metal on the sides of both intake and exhaust ports to move the attaching holes for larger headers and W series/custom intakes would be huge for me personally. The ability to raise the roof and not have a weak spring area at the roof is a big issue on most heads. There is so much to be gained by n the roof but limited by a thin roof under the spring seat.
 
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Here's my thoughts.

Flexibility and economy to me is the name of the game. I think the ideas about valve cover bolt patterns and SBC (or some other common and cheap rocker arms source) are excellent ideas.

I'm not sure if you are having your own castings or adapting existing ones. If you're having your own castings done I would also think about the following.

I would target a port size that gets you to 300 plus CFM out of the box. These heads would work well on smaller 360 based engines but also could support decent power numbers for strokers. I would also cast in enough material to be able to substantially increase the flow capabilities for guys that want to port the heads.

Consider the common breakthrough areas when porting. This is something where some extra material can go a long way.

Maybe a 205 or 208 valve is not necessary at these power levels but if there's enough material there too enlarge the valve sizes significantly that would be great.

Exhaust ports that play well with commonly available headers would be nice. In other words the port shouldn't be bigger on the outlet than say a nice set of TTI headers. Again, cast in the material so that we have some flexibility with the ports.

I'm not an expert on port shapes but it seems like the old school small block exhaust port shape on the floor isn't the best from everything I've read.

Consult with some real experts when it comes to the shape and size of the chambers.

Casting quality is very important. Leaky porous head castings can make a great head terrible.

Final thoughts. I think of you take mine and the other guys suggestions seriously and implement them you could go a long way and sell a lot of heads. However, if you just build a run of the mill 290 CFM head it's going to be a hard sell versus the trick flow head. That's a very nice setup And you would be competing with it directly.
 
Just make it simple, copy the magnum head in aluminum, with a more universal valve installed height, set the ports up with the LA port window, and offer in either magnum or LA intake pattern. Sell a bunch of em
 
I keep hearing W2 but yet we already have one and guys totally ignore it. The Indy 360-2 head is so close it isn’t funny but once again we had great cast iron W2 heads and guys didn’t want to lay out the money for offset rockers. The oval port 360-2 is and can be a fantastic head in aluminum’s that you could expand its limits over the years or go full tort and get the cnc version.
 
Like I mentioned, duplicate a mildly ported Magnum head with LA intake pattern like you mentioned in post #1. With the right sized valve, port and bowl work, and cast with those modifications, 450 horse isn't far off. The would be great for your street Magnum engines. You need something better than stock that can be cast for ootb use. If you get producing these, there is a market for them.
Johnny Mac said:
Messy as anticipated, but still good suggestions and info! It's simply what I'd refer to as premium mainstream, vs Luxury/exotic. Everyone WANTS a Ferrari....what everyone BUYS is a Challenger/Camaro/Mustang. Novelty on the Ferrari starts to wear off when the they guy that unknowingly bought it starts to get into the $3000 oil changes, the insurance cost, the fact he can't get it over his driveway lip in the street. Ya'll are the wise of the wise, and the experienced of the experienced. If i was designing a Race engine, all the shaft rocker and W2 comments would be valid, but i'm simply not. Just need people to remember, our goal is to sell a bunch of great engines, not a few, 20,000 exotic race engines. You guys know W2's take different headers, Most mainstream customers do not. We can't have a guy that inherited his dads duster, buy our engine, then call back furious because his only out for headers is to have a set made for $2000. And it also makes 6 inches of vacuum, so now his brakes don't work, and it's 5 inches taller, so he has to cut a hole in the hood. Thanks to those participating!
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toolmanmike said:
Like I mentioned, duplicate a mildly ported Magnum head with LA intake pattern like you mentioned in post #1. With the right sized valve, port and bowl work, and cast with those modifications, 450 horse isn't far off. The would be great for your street Magnum engines. You need something better than stock that can be cast for ootb use. If you get producing these, there is a market for them.
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Only problem with that is “Mother Mopar”. She is VERY protective of the use of her products. Probably more than any other car manufacturer out there.
 
100% agree there about being protective!
 
I wonder if the other manufacturers have to pay royalties?
 
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