Tech info wanted; Lean Burn Dist

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Crank degrees is 2x distributor degrees. The distributor moves 1 revolution for 2 crank revolutions.

This scope picture was done long ago. This is for V8 not 6. I think the bottom trace is the primary pickup, the upper is the secondary. In the lower the zero crossings are a cylinder apart or 90 crank degrees. On the right shows measured timing in ms, using the grid the placement of the upper trace can be estimated. 90* 12.2/27.8 = 39.5 degrees. I think mopar actually used it for a ~50 degree advance, and electronic time delay from there. That is similar to what I do with shutter wheels with opto or Hall and a micro. Technology has vastly improved in the 40 years after lean burn.

I get queasy looking at the waveforms, nothing I would consider using for accurate timing control. The variation in amplitude is not a good thing, nor the magnetic leakage from second pickup magnetic circuit.
 

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I get queasy looking at the waveforms, nothing I would consider using for accurate timing control. The variation in amplitude is not a good thing, nor the magnetic leakage from second pickup magnetic circuit.

I get queasy just trying to figure out what is trying to be accomplished, here.

Let me explain where ~I~ am "at" with this dual-pickup, Lean-Burn distributor.

I bought it to utilize its two pickups as a dual-timing system for my turbocharged 225 slant six. What I got was a distributor that has, indeed, two pickups at different locations (as I wanted,) but the unfortunate part is, I cannot seem to find out the amount of difference in the timing of the two pickups. I am hoping it will be approximately four, five, or six degrees. Nothing more than six. The two pickups were put there by the factory so that one could be used (it was retarded "X" number of degrees) for starting. Just what the amount of retard is, is my question.

My reasoning is this: My engine is having trouble generating enough torque at 2800rpm, to pull itself up tp 3200 rpm against the converter (at stall.) I NEED that 3200rpm to leave the line with as much acceleration as the desired performance requires. Right now, it just doesn't generate sufficient "grunt." My 60-foot times are not fast enough, due to a lack of launch acceleration; I want to fix that, if I can.

My timing is locked at 18 crank-degrees. Turbocharged engines have totally-different spark-timing requirements than naturally-aspirated ones. The flame front in a boosted engine moves across the piston top much faster than the flame front in a naturally-aspirated engine.... so, not as much advance is required.

The way I would use this distributor is to set the timing with the "advanced" magnetic pickup, at, say, 24 degrees, and stall the engine against the converter with that "advanced" spark lead (this is assuming a 6-degree difference in timing, between the two pickups,) and once the car is underway, switch to the other (retarded) pickup for normal, eighteen-degrees timing, for the rest of the trip.

That's all there is to it! All it takes is a DPDT switch and a few feet of wire.

I am frustrated by the fact that no one seems to know the location of the two pickups, operationally. I am pretty sure you can't look at the relationship between the reluctor(s) and the magnetic pickup(s) and tell exactly when the plug will fire.

So, I guess I'll just wire them up and watch the timing light to see the actual position of the crank when they fire with first, one; then the other, and that will tell me what I need to know. I just hope that the difference in the positioning of the two pickups is not more than six crankshaft-degrees, That is about what I need.

Thanks for your interest! :cheers:
 
Bill, sorry I have not been able to do a real world test, yet. My wife has had some major medical problems, which have priority over working on the car. I just got my car running, again, last weekend. I will see if I can try the pual pickup dist, in the next few days.
 
Since you do not have a scope, the timing light with two boxes will work. I do not have a dual pickup 6 distributor, the info above suggests 50 degrees advance or 40 retard at crank, for v8. The 50 degree advance window is above the base timing set by primary pickup. The LB control measures the time difference between sensors and subdivide for timing control. The LB timing idea was great, the implementation in electronics at the time was horrible.

Sorry you do not want electronic advance. It will give the grunt off line to burn tires and snap axles, been there done that with my turbo 4. You need to have normal advance or more, without boost, that retards as needed, as boost comes in. Timing varies smooth with boost, not a switch in affair. Retarded timing throws more heat at turbo, but also reduces burn in cylinder centered on power stroke. Proper controlled timing results in a super strong torque curve. It will pull like crazy, and want the load, of up shifts. If you want to keep considering mechanical considerations, try boost retard dash pot on distributor. That might require significant fabrication, considering the need for adjustment compensations.

The EFI controls also play an important part, but that involves electronics too. Having timing and fuel controls on a 3D surface of MAP and RPM with temperature related air density and timing enhancements, is much different than two locked timings on a switch and a carb. You have done such a nice job building your car, then leaving much HP on the table due to primative controls.
 
Since you do not have a scope, the timing light with two boxes will work.
What "boxes"??? I don't have any "boxes" that I know of...


Sorry you do not want electronic advance. It will give the grunt off line to burn tires and snap axles. I HAD axle-snapping performance off the line with the 3.55 gear I had in the car. My problem is with the area from 10-feet from the starting line to about 50 feet from the starting line, with this 2.76:1 gear. I don't want wheelspin (that's one of the reasons I got rid of the 3.55) but, more torque than I have now. More stall speed will give it to me, I THINK. You need to have normal advance or more, without boost, that retards as needed,Timing varies smooth with boost, not a switch in affair. I don't think that will mattter. Retarded timing throws more heat at turbo, but also reduces burn in cylinder centered on power stroke. Proper controlled timing results in a super strong torque curve. It will pull like crazy, and want the load, of up shifts. If you want to keep considering mechanical considerations, try boost retard dash pot on distributor. That might require significant fabrication, considering the need for adjustment compensations. The only dash-pots I have ever seen operated the throttle butterflies. I don't know what you are talking about.

The EFI controls also play an important part, but that involves electronics too. Having timing and fuel controls on a 3D surface of MAP and RPM with temperature related air density and timing enhancements, is much different than two locked timings on a switch and a carb. You have done such a nice job building your car, then leaving much HP on the table due to primative controls.

Thanks for the kind words! There are possibly a couple of things you may not be aware of: Firstly, this is a race car ONLY; NEVER driven on the street. That relieves it of ANY driveability or mileage considerations, EVER. Secondly, I am 77 years old (as of Dec. 20) and don't have TIME for learning the technical aspects of EFI/Spark Control as regards spark advance curves. My whole approach to this effort was K.I.S.S. (keep it simple, stupid,) because in this venue, I am. And, I know it.

I doubt, though, that I am leaving much "on the table" in this boosted project, by using the spark setup I described. Then again, this is not an NHRA Comp Eliminator car where every horsepower counts; it's JUST a hobby car, built for my amazement.

If it ever breaks into the tens, I'll be beside myself! :)

In the meantime, it's just a multi-faceted experiment that exists for my amusement,:happy1:

Thanks again for your interest and comments!
 
Bill, sorry I have not been able to do a real world test, yet. My wife has had some major medical problems, which have priority over working on the car. I just got my car running, again, last weekend. I will see if I can try the pual pickup dist, in the next few days.

Thanks, Charrlie. Best wishes to your wife. Mine has been in a nursing home (paralysis/blindness) for the last six years. I understand. Let me know what you find out, please....
 
Mopar built an electric timing retard into the vacuum pod of some models in the early 70s. I have one on this 440.
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In post #26 I show the waveforms for a V8, the 6 should have similar timing. When a reluctor tooth is lined up with the pick-up nub the waveform is at the zero point, and is going on a slanted diagonal path low to high, left to right. The ignition trigger point is slightly above the zero point. It is based on the voltage threshold in the mopar box, that was not well controlled, so it varies between units. The timing varies some because the pick up voltage varies with RPM, that changes the slope, so there is a slight timing advance with higher RPM.

The timing point is going to be where the reluctor advances slightly past where the tooth and pick-up nub are centered. You can verify using this method: Use a timing light, verify your locked timing. Shut engine off, carefully rotate engine to reach that timing mark. Get there only with correct rotation, do not back it up to correct. Pop distributor cap observe reluctor tooth to pick-up position. If you want rotate the engine one more revolution and check again.

If you want 6 crank degrees retard here are the measurements. Based on my NOS 6 reluctor, the outer tooth diameter is 1.310", that is a circumference of diameter times pi (1.310 * 3.1416) or about 4.12 inches. In crank degrees that is 720. So 4.12/720 is 0.0057 " per degree. For 6 degrees, 0.034". That is very close to the width of of a reluctor tooth tip. So to get your 6 degrees the second sensor should be set on another tooth, such that there is no gap, as the primary sees the exit of tooth, the secondary sensor is centered on tooth.

I added picture, the lower pick-up is primary. I stuck the secondary in but it need some clearance to get it to fit. The second pick-up nub need to be on leading tooth edge when primary is centered on tooth. As the rotor is turned clock-wise, it will align with second pickup.
 

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If you want 6 crank degrees retard here are the measurements. Based on my NOS 6 reluctor, the outer tooth diameter is 1.310", that is a circumference of diameter times pi (1.310 * 3.1416) or about 4.12 inches. In crank degrees that is 720. So 4.12/720 is 0.0057 " per degree. For 6 degrees, 0.034". That is very close to the width of of a reluctor tooth tip. So to get your 6 degrees the second sensor should be set on another tooth, such that there is no gap, as the primary sees the exit of tooth, the secondary sensor is centered on tooth.

So, Kit, first-off, thank you for all your time-consuming and tedious, hard work in figuring this out.

I will admit to understanding, REALLY understanding, about 30-percent of this, as it just flies over my head and in lost to the cosmos... but I THINK I "get it", that one of these pickups is going to have to be re-positioned to achieve a 6-degree difference in firing (timing.)

Tomorrow, or the next day, I am going to start the car, look at the timing, (with a timing light,) which should be dead-on 18 degrees BTDC, and then, disconnect that pickup and run the engine with the other pickup connected and look at the timing. I have a new timing tape that will show me, in no uncertain graphics, just how much difference there is in the two pickups. THAT is what I need to know. Wish me luck....

I'm hoping for 6-degrees, but, it might be much more. Or, less....

We'll see.:banghead:


Thanks, again!
 
Also remember you can reverse the pickup leads which will move the phasing
 
Bill,
You are very welcome. Ask if you need help. I am here for that.

You will need to move pickup. If it seems to run, the polarity is reversed.

Like Del says if the wires are switched, the trigger point is in between teeth, and is not well defined, timing will jump all over the place. If you look at the upper right waveform in post #26, imagine the waveform flipped. There is a vertical line that goes from the lower wave zero up to upper wave. There are small bumps, that is where the trigger will happen, it may be near 6 degrees, but is a horrible trigger point, and will not be stable, I am certain of that.

Most DPDT switches have bounce. That may lead to a misfire or so. I might have a Mercury wetted instrumentation relay to help reduce that.

I am thinking if you make a small two hole tapped plate, that has the mounting hole spacing. Then you can use slots in the base plate, and have adjustability from above. Use screws with captivated lock washers. 6-32?
 
My project stalled when I tried to put the timing tae I had bought (429 Ford dampener is the same size as a slant six,) an found that there is NO PLACE TO ATTACH IT!

The "dampener" has no flat surface, but is a belt-pulley... with no place to stick the tape.

I'll have to work something else out...
 
Bill, you don't need a timing tape. Just use a "dial back" timing light.

Thanks, Charrlie. I don't have one, but, thanks to your recommendation, I will, soon! Merry Christmas to ME... lol!

And, Merrry Christmas to you and yours! :)


PS... is there a problem using a dial-back timing light with an MSD 6-AL box because of its "multiple spark" discharges at low rpm?
 
Bill, you don't need a timing tape. Just use a "dial back" timing light.

Found this on another site; some good points there..

There's no question that timing lights are anvil-basic devices and are easy to use, but contrary to what you might first think, all timing lights are not created equal. Before we get into lights, think about this: The idea behind setting initial timing is to synchronize the firing "point" of the ignition with the position of the piston in the cylinder bore. In order to establish this synchronization, you use a timing light to determine piston position relevant to a number of degrees marked on either the harmonic damper or the timing tab. The only real problem with setting up timing in this manner is the fact that your timing equipment must be absolutely accurate. We should also point out that correctly indexed harmonic dampers as well as properly indexed timing tabs are crucial.

While it might come as a surprise to most serious racers, some (no, make that many) timing lights are not accurate! The reasons are varied, but in the majority of cases, timing lights have been designed for use in “more pedestrian, Mom and Pop” applications. Most tune-ups (professional and otherwise) seldom if ever require that the timing be checked beyond 2,000 RPM. As a consequence, many timing light manufacturers are able to construct a very simple, cost effective timing light.

And the key here is "cost effective". In some instances, a trigger delay is installed in the light (this practice is even found in some very high dollar “professional name brand” lights. I won't name them. Just think mega bucks). This has little effect in the lower engine speed ranges, but once the RPM level goes over the 2,000-RPM range, timing lights with delay circuits appear retarded. Another real problem is radio frequency noise protection. Most home-use timing lights have little if any protection against RF noise and as a result, can produce erroneous readings when used in conjunction with solid core wire sets.

According to MSD research certain types of timing lights with built-in adjusting mechanisms (usually the common “dial back” models) have been proven to be so inaccurate that they produce false readings at speeds in excess of several hundred RPM. Many of these adjustable timing lights also carry very high price tags. Before you purchase such a unit, compare it to a known timing light.
So what if your timing light is off a degree or two at 2,500 RPM? While it might sound like a small amount, keep in mind that whatever error exists in the light at low engine speed levels will be multiplied as the engine speed increases. If the light is off by two degrees at 2,500 RPM, it might be off by six or eight degrees at 6,500 RPM -- and as you can imagine, that happens to be a significant amount of error.

To determine the accuracy of your particular timing light, it should be checked against a digital engine analyzer at speeds below 2,500 RPM. Be certain that your light is installed properly (see below). Unfortunately, you can’t trust all digital analysis equipment over the 2,500-RPM ceiling.

Autotronic Controls Corporation (makers of the MSD ignition systems) recognized this problem and began to test a rather large number of available timing lights. Through this testing, they decided to develop their own timing light (P/N 8990). Additionally, this testing also revealed that an older model Sears Craftsman Timing Light (P/N A-2134) was considered very reliable and accurate. Both lights are stable and accurate from zero to 8,000 RPM and because of this, they are well suited to a modified (as in “high performance super rod”) application.
We’ve had the opportunity to test these lamps against several well know "professional" models and we found that a few of the other lights were showing much different timing at engine speeds slightly over 1,200 RPM. At the same time, the MSD light and the Sears light were virtually identical in performance. And yes, these two lamps compared favorably with a digital engine analyzer below 2,500 RPM.




There’s more to timing lights too. In truth, many enthusiasts (and believe it or not, that includes many of us in the high performance community) hook up timing lights incorrectly. It sounds bizarre but it isn't. Often, a convoluted header configuration coupled with a tight engine compartment will only allow one easy light installation. Trouble is, that installation might not be correct. If the timing light is setup incorrectly, the timing marks you are watching could be a mile (and more than a few degrees) off. According to MSD, when setting up your timing light, there are several things to consider:

• Be absolutely certain that the positive and negative clips are correctly attached to the battery or power source. Never use the coil as a source of power! Be certain that the pair of timing light power cables is not in contact or close to any of the spark plug wires.

• When connecting the trigger clamp to the number one cylinder, be absolutely positive that the clamp does not come in contact with any other spark plug wires. If contact is made or if the trigger is close to any other wires, there is a good chance that a false triggering will occur. Additionally, it is always a good idea to further separate the number one cylinder wire lead from any other cylinder wires. Stray signals or spark crossover will not influence the timing light if this practice is always followed.

• Some timing lights require the trigger clamp to be mounted in a specific direction on the spark plug wire. Be absolutely positive that your clamp is mounted with the jaws pointing in the proper direction. In the event that the clamp is installed upside down (and it's very easy to do), the timing will appear retarded.

As you can easily see, there's much more to timing lights than simply hooking up the power cables and clamping the inductive pickup over number one cylinder. Who knows, there's a chance you could find some serious power lurking in your engine. And only because you were fooled by a faulty timing light.


Both timing light power cables should be affixed to the battery. In the event that your car has a trunk mount battery or pair of batteries, add a power junction block to an accessible location in the engine compartment. Never use the coil as a source of timing light power.

Number One ignition wire must be well separated from the other wires on the engine. Spark cross over from other wires can easily influence timing light performance.

Be positive that the inductive pickup clamp is correctly oriented. Virtually all timing light clamps have arrows or instructions which indicate the proper orientation. If the clamp is installed backward, then the engine timing will appear retarded.

Never allow the trigger clamp to come in contact with any of the other spark plug wires. If the trigger clamp or the wire that connects to the clamp are close to spark plug wires other than number one, they can influence the timing. Similarly, the power wires can pickup false signals if they run too close to the primary ignition wires.
 
A word about this info. Even if your timing light is not accurate, as long as the inaccuracy is consistant, what difference does it make? I use the same timing light on everything/everytime. So if it is off by any amount, it is off the same amount always.
How do you know what timing the engine wants? Trial and error, right? Make a pass check the plugs for signs of detonation, try a different setting, make another pass, see if the run is better or worse. Repeat. Now you know what the engine wants, so shoot the timing mark. Who cares what the number is. it could read anything, makes no difference, as long as you use the same timing light the next time. If you disturb anything just reset to the number you had previously.
PS: I do have an "old" Sears timing light. Don't know the model number.
 
A word about this info. Even if your timing light is not accurate, as long as the inaccuracy is consistant, what difference does it make? I use the same timing light on everything/everytime. So if it is off by any amount, it is off the same amount always.
How do you know what timing the engine wants? Trial and error, right? Make a pass check the plugs for signs of detonation, try a different setting, make another pass, see if the run is better or worse. Repeat. Now you know what the engine wants, so shoot the timing mark. Who cares what the number is. it could read anything, makes no difference, as long as you use the same timing light the next time. If you disturb anything just reset to the number you had previously.
PS: I do have an "old" Sears timing light. Don't know the model number.

How do I know what it wants? I just try to mimic the settings used by Tom Wolfe and Ryan Peterson; Hell, you KNOW I don't know what I'm doing, but THEY do, so I just copy them. They run 18 degrees, so that is what I have done. So far, it's worked. I just bought THIS light from Summit.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ino-3555/reviews/?sortReviews=Newest

Hope it works.... :)

Thanks for the always-good advice, Charrlie!:cheers:
 
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