SLOPAR72
Well-Known Member
Cliff notes...... The pickup is a legit problem.... Who assembled the motor with the pan like that?
JW
JW
The 340 is out....again.....
- Thread starter 340_dart_power
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340_dart_power
Well-Known Member
The previous shop I used in Millersville, TN. They regularly build race engines but apparently weren't familiar with building a Mopar.
Darthomas
Ashamed to be seen in foreign cars
Is that an Allis Chalmers WD 45?
moper
Well-Known Member
A legit problem - yes. I always keep them 1/8 - 1/4" off the pan. But a fatal flaw - no.
My money's on the cam bearings being in wrong, or not clearance properly. Factory pickups have a solid bottom. They pull oil in from the "side" not the "bottom". Aftermarket pickups suck from the bottom but that mark looks like a stocker.
Regardless hopefully it's been fixed and everybody's good to go.
My money's on the cam bearings being in wrong, or not clearance properly. Factory pickups have a solid bottom. They pull oil in from the "side" not the "bottom". Aftermarket pickups suck from the bottom but that mark looks like a stocker.
Regardless hopefully it's been fixed and everybody's good to go.
SLOPAR72
Well-Known Member
Well good riddance to them..... I can't think back to any motor I have done where I did not check the clearance. Not even performance related but basic rebuilds.... A simple procedure that is worth the minimal effort needed.
I am not sure it will hold water in a Courtroom but IMO it should.... They should have to compensate you for the 2 time IMO...
JW
yellow rose
Overnight Sensation
If you have a stock pan and pickup, the pick up SHOULD touch the pan. The engine builder getting bashed set it up correctly. The pick up is designed to sit on the pan floor. You move it away and I promise you it will run out of oil. Unless you add two extra quarts.
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Darthomas
Ashamed to be seen in foreign cars
I'd rather have it touch as long as it doesn't wear a hole through or break off.
Use all the oil in circulation.
Use all the oil in circulation.
Marcohotrod
Well-Known Member
was it a stock pickup? many times new mopar cam bearings are too tight
What did the eod and main bearings look like? I recently rebuilt a 360 and the rod and mains looked amazingly good for a hi mileage motor. Pulled the cam and the cam bearings were competely wiped with chunks gone out of all of them. Had the block got tanked, New bearings installed,etc. Owner of the shop said they weren't getting enough oil to them and got wiped out. I put my new cam in and it spun nice with no right spots and was assured that were fine now. I've tore down ALOT of motors over the last 35yrs and never seen cam bearings like that. Now it's got me nervous, as I've got a lifter ticking at start up in the morning after a few thousand miles. Hopefully it's just a bad lifter, it happens. Were your cam bearings in bad shape before the engine was built? I was assured there was no blockage, but the shop is now closed as the owner just passed away.
moper
Well-Known Member
Promises... Promises.
In 29 years I've never let them touch the pan. Where are all the witness marks on undamaged pans coming off an original engines? I don't recall ever seeing one.
It would have been 30 years' history but the first one that touched did just that when the dumb teenager jacked the engine up by the pan...lol.
lsm360
Well-Known Member
Just seeing this thread for first time. Sorry to see your expensive bad luck. Whenever I see something like this, I'm reminded that I'm not the only one to experience these types of things. It's a reminder if you play with old cars enough, you're going to have stuff like this happen, unless you have the equipment and know-how to do it ALL yourself. I don't, unfortunately. Sure wish I did. I'd make sure everything was done meticulously right. I envy you guys who have both the know-how and facilities. Anyway, glad you have things nearing finish, and keep us posted.
yellow rose
Overnight Sensation
Like everything else, there are production tolerances. The pickup is DESIGNED to touch the pan.
Do some research.
So, in fact, the pick up touching the pan was the zero end of the tolerance and plus .1875 (that's 3/16 for you fractional types) on the high side IIRC. I have not seen these numbers since 1980 but I have never forgotten the ideal fit is on the pan. I suspect most never went out that way, because some idiot will smash the pan.
Again, the OP did NOT have an issue because the pick up was touching the floor of the pan. That is where it should be.
Can't tell you ho many I put together that way, but it's correct. The OP needs to look for something else to cover his problem.
And add at least one quart more oil and remark the dip stick. Maybe two quarts if he is going to smash on the throttle or worse yet, try and fender race and stomp on the brakes.
Funny thing is, David Reher just wrote a technical article on this stuff. Everyone should read it. There'd be way fewer broken engines out there.
nm9stheham
Well-Known Member
FWIW... from the [1965] Plymouth FSM in the small block section for 273 and poly 318....."The bottom of the strainer must be parallel with the machined surface of the cylinder block. The bottom of the strainer must touch the bottom of the oil pan."
Just my thought for why (maybe!): To get max pick of oil and also to provide a little stability to the pickup tube, and avoid any odd noises of the strainer vibrating against the pan on occasion. I installed my /6 pickup juuuuust off of the bottom of the pan and it makes an odd noise at idle now an then that I attribute to the pickup vibrating against the pan. (Can't find any other reason for it...)
Just my thought for why (maybe!): To get max pick of oil and also to provide a little stability to the pickup tube, and avoid any odd noises of the strainer vibrating against the pan on occasion. I installed my /6 pickup juuuuust off of the bottom of the pan and it makes an odd noise at idle now an then that I attribute to the pickup vibrating against the pan. (Can't find any other reason for it...)
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yellow rose
Overnight Sensation
That's what I was talking about. Is there not a max distance the pick up can be away from the pan? Been a long time since I saw that number. The FACT still remains that if you are paying for your crap to be assembled, or you are doing it yourself, and you are dead set on a stock pan, you need to set that pickup on the pan floor. It don't need to be press fit, as in pulling the pan down with bolts. But as close to zero as you can get.
If this were done, there'd be a lot less bearing and oil pressure issues. Either that, or add oil and remark the dip stick.
nm9stheham
Well-Known Member
I have only seen a couple of FSM's so can't say if that info for a minimum distance of the pickup from the pan never showed up in later FSM's. But I would presume that 'must touch' means 0.000" maximum distance from pan.....
I kinda question that being a few tenths off the pan floor will cause engine failures, if any at all. For example, the pickup was 1/4" off of the floor of a stock SBM, then the numbers compute out to be less than 1/2 pint of oil that it would not pick up versus being down on the bottom. Maybe in extreme cases.....
I kinda question that being a few tenths off the pan floor will cause engine failures, if any at all. For example, the pickup was 1/4" off of the floor of a stock SBM, then the numbers compute out to be less than 1/2 pint of oil that it would not pick up versus being down on the bottom. Maybe in extreme cases.....
moper
Well-Known Member
It won't. Let's do some math or research as others suggest...
Using 8"x8" sump from a factory pan, which for full disclosure does not include the curved corners, etc of the stock pan so 8x8 is more volume than actually there:
Using the factory ".1875 max" off the pan leaves 6.6oz, or .2 of a quart of oil under the pickup.
Using the same volume: using my "high" of 1/4" or .250" that leaves 8.8oz, or .275 of a quart under the pickup.
yellow rose
Overnight Sensation
Like I said, I saw the numbers in 1980 so I can't remember how far the factory would let the pick up be off the floor of the pan and still let it out the door.
When the pick up gets moved away from the floor on a strainer type pick up like that, it looses its ability to pull oil very quickly. The further away, the quicker it will lose the ability to pull oil. With a stock pan, and a standard 1/4 inch away from the pan with that pick up and you will eat a bearing fairly quick. There are 5 quarts in the system. I always figure 1 in the filter, 1 in each head and 1 in the block and in return. The return number can go up or down, depending on RPM, wind age tray, crank scrapers etc. But that is a fairly close assessment of oil in the system.
You now have 1 quart in the pan and the pick up is 1/4 inch off the floor. Now, stand on the brakes. What little oil that is in the pan is now up in the timing cover and you are sucking air. Seen it happen. Really bad on guys who like to fender race and crap like that.
If you have an aftermarket pan and pick up, you use the distance the manufacturer tells you.
So again, if you are using the stock pan and pick up, the pick up goes down against the pan. The OP's engine builder did that right, and the OP needs to find out what actually happened or he will eat another one.
yellow rose
Overnight Sensation
I remember the plus number being .187 or 3/16.
You math is correct. You just are not accounting for slosh. That's where the trouble happens. Oil control is a mother bear. Most everything I do any more has a crank scraper. In fact, Teflon and both an up and down scraper.
ScampMike
Despicable Damn Yankee
my Scamp has a Hensley prepped stroked 360 in it. It was pushing a 3000lb. car to just under 7sec 1/8th runs with a 150 shot... I have had it reconditioned by a great shop in my area and they were very impressed with the engine - even with the tweaks to lower HP a little I am still getting 300RWHP - no NOS shot.
340_dart_power
Well-Known Member
My take on having the pickup tube resting against the inside bottom of the pan is analogous to taking a straw and putting it against a solid surface and trying to suck air or anything else through the straw. If it's making full contact as mine was, to the point where it gouged the pan, how could it possibly be drawing oil up and out of the pan efficiently? In any event, the motor was toast and now it's rebuilt, so hopefully by the end of this week it'll be up and running. I'll post video & photos when I can.
yellow rose
Overnight Sensation
Just so you know...if you look at the bottom of the pickup, you will see that the screen is recessed from the body of the pick up. It is almost a 1/4 of an inch. It is designed so that body touches the floor of the pan and the strainer (the screen) will be the correct distance from the pan. If you don't have the body of the pickup touch the floor of the pan, the strainer will be too far from the floor and it will act like it is out of oil.
That's the way Chrysler designed it and they weren't the only ones who did it that way.
I realize that it is counterintuitive to put the pick up on the floor, but that's how it was designed. I've seen plenty of tore up stuff and the height of the pickup was the issue.
I hope you have sorted out what caused the failure you had.
nm9stheham
Well-Known Member
So add an extra 1/2 pint or so of oil to make up for the pickup being off the floor. And you will be back up where you started with it on the floor. One reason I like to run big, remote mounted oil filters is a bit of extra capacity in the line and filter between the pump and engine in case the pickup burps; just that much more oil for the air to spread out in.... yeah, it's a theory LOL!
And like YR said: look at the pickup design. Most of the bottom is closed off by the way it is built. See here; having it touch the pan is not at all like the end of a straw against a flat surface. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/...-performance&gclid=COP96bj6l9ACFU5WDQodc5kH8w
And like YR said: look at the pickup design. Most of the bottom is closed off by the way it is built. See here; having it touch the pan is not at all like the end of a straw against a flat surface. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/...-performance&gclid=COP96bj6l9ACFU5WDQodc5kH8w
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MOPAROFFICIAL
Oogliboogli
lol ehh we're all just trying to get you to find the exact problem so your next motor doesn't bite the dust like the first one.
The pickup resting against the bottom of the pan, like I 1st said and has been echoed, was not the killer of the cam bearings.
If the oiling went south to the point the cam bearings failed...you would have a entire motor showing you signs of it, not just cam bearings.
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