The slant or the 318

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I like that Offy manifold! With a stock bottom end it would work well. Your super six is manifold only?

Have you ever considered turbocharging? The slant six motor has two things relevant to its construction that make turbocharging it a good thing, overall:

#1: It was originally designed to be an aluminum engine, so the areas of the block requiring strength equal to a cast iron motor, were beefed up (main bearing webs and cylinder head mating surfaces, for instance.) When Ma Mopar decided the aluminum was not going to work, due to a number of things (casting porosity, etc.) she said, let's make it out of cast iron, then... and didn't change much in the way of "infrastructure." The result, was an extremely robust, stout, ALMOST unbreakable piece with a forged steel crank with main bearings the same size as the mains in a 426 Hemi. Slant sixes go with boost like ham goes with eggs!

#2: The slant six was originally a 170 cubic-inch engine with small bore center spacing, and small bores. The cylinder head that was dictated by this small-displacement/small bore package had smallish valves and ports that worked well with the 170. The Ramchargers had one such 170 running 7,000+ rpm an an early Willys coupe at the Indy Nationals in '61, and it EASILY won its class against the best G.M.C. six-cylinders and flathead Ford V8's in competition, cars that had years of developmental time to their credit. The 170 was a high-rpm, absolute KILLER motor for that type of racing (pounds-per-cubic inch.)

But, Ma wanted to use that motor in some full size B-Body Dodges and Plymouths; what to do??? The answer was, to stroke the 170 crank a full inch, for a displacement of 225 cubes. The small ports and valves were not a hinderance for this application, because they enhanced torque at low engine speeds, which was exactly what these cars needed to keep up with traffic. Making a lot of horsepower was never a factor; people who wanted to go fast just bought a Hemi...

So Ma never changed a thing to enhance the breathing potential for the 225 (and, later, the 198-inch) versions of the /6, a fact that makes getting one of the larger-displacement (225) motors to have enough air flow at higher rpms, a real problem. The 225 cylinders are 39 cubic inches each. That's the same size as the cylinders on a 302 cubic inch Z-28 1969 Chevy engine.

The valve sizes tell the story:

Chevy STOCK valves are 2.02" intakes and 1.6" exhausts.
The slant 6 STOCK valves are 1.62" intakes, and 1.36" exhausts

Remember; that's for the SAME SIZE cylinders...

Slant six cylinder head port sizes reflect this same disparity in flow potential.

Most "performance-minded"-folks have their slant 6 head ported and install 1.75" (nominal) intake valves, and 1.5" exhaust valves, which helps a lot.

But it's still far short (16-percent on the intake and 18 percent on the exhaust) of a STOCK Chevy V8 head from their 43-year-old, hi-po V8.

So, it turns out that getting a 225 slant 6 head to flow enough air to generate enough cylinder pressure to make a reasonably-impresive amount of horsepower, normally-aspirated, is going to be a tough nut to crack.

You can be very happy with a low 14-second 3,000-pound Duster (for example) that has a 4-bbl carb, a slightly lumpy cam, 12:1 compression ratio and a nice-sounding set of headers and makes, probably, 215 horsepower (according to Wallace online racing computers.)

Moparkid305 is a good case in point. He contends that his car is streetable, and if you like a 1,000rpm idle, and deep gears in your daily driver, that may be for you. You can have a LOT of fun with a low-14 second car....

There is an alternative, however, that may be just as effective and, overall, a cheaper way to get this performance.

Tom Wolfe had a '70, /6 Dart to which he did the following: Added a Super Six 2-bbl intake manifold, went to the junkyard and bought a used, '87 Buick Grand National turbocharger, mounted it on his stock exhaust maifold, and used stock-ratio rear end gearing and a stock converter and tranny. Ran 12.95 @ 104 mph. Here's the video:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPe_vHwZsF4"]Slant Six Turbo 1970 Dodge Dart 1/4 Mile pass - YouTube[/ame]

In all fairness, he did have the boost cranked up to 22 pounds for that run, but the head was stock; the short block was stock.... stock cam and he hadn't spent a lot of money in the engine (I don't believe the head had ever been off.)

Tom has since, raised the bar for his car with some good (expensive) forged pistons and aftermarket rods, and has a higher stall converter and enjoys a ported head with bigger valves, now.

The Dart has rewarded him with an 11-second-flat timeslip, at a little over 120 mph in the quarter. (That was run into a 15-mph headwind, BTW.) That takes around 500 horsepower.

It would take a pretty healthy (not cheap) small block V8 to compete with those times, I think.

Tom is a FABO "regular" and is always willing to help out with his experience and information RE: Turbos.

This is just ONE alternative to "hopping up" a slant 6 in the "conventional way."

Nitrous oxide would also be a way to some impressive times that would not break the bank.

Knowledge is power; examine all of the avenues, and then make your decision.... only YOU know what would be the best route for you.

Hope this helps!:cheers:
 
The 225 cylinders are 39 cubic inches each. That's the same size as the cylinders on a 302 cubic inch Z-28 1969 Chevy engine.

The valve sizes tell the story:

Chevy STOCK valves are 2.02" intakes and 1.6" exhausts.
The slant 6 STOCK valves are 1.62" intakes, and 1.36" exhausts

Remember; that's for the SAME SIZE cylinders...

Slant six cylinder head port sizes reflect this same disparity in flow potential.

Most "performance-minded"-folks have their slant 6 head ported and install 1.75" (nominal) intake valves, and 1.5" exhaust valves, which helps a lot.

But it's still far short (16-percent on the intake and 18 percent on the exhaust) of a STOCK Chevy V8 head from their 43-year-old, hi-po V8.


Well. I neglected to do the necessary math relative to the valve AREA (as opposed to just the diameter)of the valves in question, and that failure to do so, resulted in a very incomplete and basically misleading contention.

Here are the real numbers; valve AREA as opposed to diameters, in these cases:

Stock slant six valves:
Intake....2.06 sq. in.
Exhaust..1.45 sq. in.

Oversize /6 valves:
Intake....2.38 sq. in.
Exhaust..1.77 sq. in.

Z-28 302 Chevy valves (stock)
Intake....3.20 sq. in.
Exhaust..2.01 sq. in.


On a percentage basis, the Chevy valves are 34% larger in area than the oversize (1.75") slant six intake valves, and 14% larger than the oversize (1.5") /6 exhausts.

Personally, ~I~ would rather PUSH a Mopar than drive a Chevrolet, but that's not pertinent to this discussion.

The fact is, the Chevy head will flow 300 cfm on the intake side with some porting; a great port job on the /6 head doesn't seem to be able to flow much more than 200. Please correct me if I'm wrong (I would LIKE to be!)

Given that set of figures, you can see that getting 2, or even 1.5 horsepower per cubic inch out of a normally aspirated 225 on gasoline is a monumental task, and expensive.

Using Guzzi Mark's car as an example, his car weighs, maybe 2,500 pounds in A/Gas trim and goes 115 mph. That takes 313 horsepower, according to the Wallace online computer (a bll-park figure, admittdly, but probably close.) If he has a 235 cubic inch engine, that's 1.33 horsepower per cubic inch.

An admirable figure, given the difficulty of putting air through the slant six head, with its smallish ports and valves. I am always amazed when I see the vidoes of that car... it moves!

On the turbocharged side, we have this video of Ryan Peterson's '66 Valiant
going 127 mph at 2700 pounds...

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QzUfV8iTpQ"]Turbo Slant Six 10.74 @ 127 mph 7-19-10 - YouTube[/ame]

That's 455 horsepower, according to the same Wallace calculator, and I may be light on the weight at 2700 dunno if that included Ryan's weight.

That figures out to 1.94 horsepower per cubic inch. And that's with a "power-robbing" 727 T-Flite. His engine is 234 cubes.

So, yes, turbos work and yes, they're expensive to build to this level, but if all you want is a peppy daily driver to give the street-driven 340s fits, stock internals and a 10-pound boost limit will probably work for low 14's/high 13's.

Just sayin', before you mill that /6 head and spend money on deep gears and a nice, equal-length header, you might consider a low-buck turbo setup. Easy to upgrade, later...
 
Damn Bill.......if I was a beginner, I would RUN away from turbos cause you wouldda just blowed my mind.
 
OP, you didn't say, but I'm assuming your Dart is a street car. That being the case, I'd stay with the six. Nothing better than a little variety. Plus an inline six actually sounds pretty cool in it's own right.
 
I am enjoying my 170 all stock /6 and will never go V8 in my 66 Valiant...
With 65.670 mile on this Sedan I removed the very small down pipe and put fresh air to a 390 cfm holley, removed the points and plugs and put the correct plugs in for the better and more reliable Mopar electronic ignition .
My Valiant is not fast but it is light and all new bearings in the drive train.
I drove over 300 miles to get her home with the 1 barrel and the day I removed the points, small exhoust and added these plugs with a well tuned carb it feels like I added 1/4 more HP.
and truthfully getting 23 to 26 MPG... it's taking the potato out of the exhaust and feeding it with cool air, it's about 190 degrees under the hood....
This is a great daily driver and it will get out of it's own way...

I don't know what 11.26 1/8 mile would or could be in the 1/4 mile but it has an open 3/23 gear rear end that came factory so I went with 14'' wheels and she can run 70 mph all day long in 100 degree weather (no shroud) here in Arkansas...
I would think if I had skinny pie pan tires up front and hit it harder at the light with good gas and spun my carb side ways it would run 11.00 in the 1/8. My daily driven and 170 slant six parts I added and has been flawless for 3 years, /6 cars are just soooo cool. When the day comes I will be picking Bill Dedmans brain and go turbocharged :cheers:

Me enjoying my girl
before the new split exhaust was piped up with 2 1/4 to 0ne 2'' after the tail shaft with a quit stock 318 muffler.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JInsZEHyig&feature=related"]41120010HolleyNEW!! 003.avi - YouTube[/ame]

I let the possi chebby word slip here :D

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agPNDXwO79c&feature=related"]Memike2010 fun 027.avi - YouTube[/ame]
 

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I am enjoying my 170 all stock /6 and will never go V8 in my 66 Valiant...
This is a great daily driver and it will get out of it's own way...

I don't know what 11.26 1/8 mile would or could be in the 1/4 mile


Memike, The Wallace online computer says that time equates to a 17.7 at 74 mph. That's really good for a 170! I've seen 225's that don't run that quick!!!

With that kind of performance and the great gas mileage you're getting, I can readily see why you're a "happy camper"!!!!:blob:

Thanks for the great pictures!
 
Which part did you find daunting? Can you be more specific?

I didn't. I said IF I was a beginner, which I am not. It's just that you write an entire essay. That might be overwhelming to some. lol
 
I didn't. I said IF I was a beginner, which I am not. It's just that you write an entire essay. That might be overwhelming to some. lol

Oh; okay.

I just thought that somebody needed to point out the REASONS why it is so hard to get big horsepower out of a slant six without some kind of power adder. The engineers who designed the leaning tower of power were given the job of creating a short, (meaning, length-wise,) not very tall, compact package to fit under the sloping hood of a new Valiant in 1960, so in an effort to minimize the length of the engine, they put small bores in a narrow bore-center block, leaned the motor over 30-degrees to make it vertically "shorter" and moved the water pump into the area beside the block, instead of in front of it, to give it less length, yet. There were good reasons for doing everything they did.

But, in the process, they shot the motor in the foot, with the (relatively) small-bores, not leaving room for big valves.

The only way to put a lot of air through this motor is by forced induction (turbo- or super-charging it.)


That's not to say that you can't have a great time, playing with this motor, usingthe "standard" hop-up procedures, like a better (4-bbl) intake, high compression, a ported, big valve head, efficient headers, and a long-duration, high-lift cam... Moparkid305 has a '68 Dart hardtop that hasn't been extensively lightened and it runs very low 14's on the street (ahead of a stock 340) and Guzzi Mark's little Valiant is a record holder in multiple classes, running low 11's, normally-aspirated. It CAN be done....

But, it's not easy, nor particularly cheap.

Turbocharging brings with it, its own set of problems; too numerous to mention here.... but, overall, in my considered opinion, if you pick a target e.t., you'll spend less and have less trouble getting there with the addition of a turbo and the necessary related hardware, (than normally--spirated.)

The "essay" I wrote was just an effort to explain why this is... nothing more.

If I over-stated my case,in an attempt to explain why I feel the way I do with too much information, I'm sorry. It was meant to help, not overwhelm.
.............................:wack:
I could have just said, "Turbo's ROCK," but that wouldn't really explain much... LOL!

Anyway, as usual, you pays your money and, you takes your choice.
 
That's not to say that you can't have a great time, playing with this motor, usingthe "standard" hop-up procedures, like a better (4-bbl) intake, high compression, a ported, big valve head, efficient headers, and a long-duration, high-lift cam... Moparkid305 has a '68 Dart hardtop that hasn't been extensively lightened and it runs very low 14's on the street (ahead of a stock 340) and Guzzi Mark's little Valiant is a record holder in multiple classes, running low 11's, normally-aspirated. It CAN be done....

But, it's not easy, nor particularly cheap.

its 805 dog... lol...:glasses7:
 
its 805 dog... lol...:glasses7:

Jeeze, I'm sorry!!!

Look, I'm 73 years old (and, so is my so-called brain.) If you want me to remember the numbers, give me something to hang my hat on; I can't think of ANYTHING related to a slant 6 that is "805."


"305," maybe (HP???,) but 805??????

Nope...

What is the reference that made you choose that number, and it had better be good, if you want this foggy-brained, old geezer to remember it!!!:protest:
 
Memike, The Wallace online computer says that time equates to a 17.7 at 74 mph. That's really good for a 170! I've seen 225's that don't run that quick!!!

With that kind of performance and the great gas mileage you're getting, I can readily see why you're a "happy camper"!!!!:blob:

Thanks for the great pictures!
Thank you for your time on this Bill :cheers: I always wondered how she could/would do on the long 1/4 mile and was hopping I could get in under 19seconds :D I have high hopes on going to Memphis motor sports park this year and get me a time slip or 4 :D with a couple videos and deep stage Victoria and see what this ol kid can still do at the light :burnout:
Slant 6 for me....
 
Alsdartgt, your thread has been hijacked by the single minded turbo flag waver that will never quit your thread until you turbo it.

Which part did you find daunting? Can you be more specific?
:wack:

The whole thing start to finish was basically a long winded rant from you that you do on every /6 thread to every member.

IMO, your best bet to wave this flag is to write a book and discount it to members (Full price plus profit for the public) instead of re typing the "How to Turbo your Chrysler Slant Six" a million times over in posts that are way to long since someone could not have interest in doing a turbo, not understand the system and/or want to in a beginners state. Long posts are not the most joyess things to read.
 
Alsdartgt, your thread has been hijacked by the single minded turbo flag waver that will never quit your thread until you turbo it.

:wack:

The whole thing start to finish was basically a long winded rant from you that you do on every /6 thread to every member.

IMO, your best bet to wave this flag is to write a book and discount it to members (Full price plus profit for the public) instead of re typing the "How to Turbo your Chrysler Slant Six" a million times over in posts that are way to long since someone could not have interest in doing a turbo, not understand the system and/or want to in a beginners state. Long posts are not the most joyess things to read.

For real,make a link or something.
 
Alsdartgt, your thread has been hijacked by the single minded turbo flag waver that will never quit your thread until you turbo it.

:wack:

The whole thing start to finish was basically a long winded rant from you that you do on every /6 thread to every member.

IMO, your best bet to wave this flag is to write a book and discount it to members (Full price plus profit for the public) instead of re typing the "How to Turbo your Chrysler Slant Six" a million times over in posts that are way to long since someone could not have interest in doing a turbo, not understand the system and/or want to in a beginners state. Long posts are not the most joyess things to read.

:cheers:
 
Jeeze, I'm sorry!!!

Look, I'm 73 years old (and, so is my so-called brain.) If you want me to remember the numbers, give me something to hang my hat on; I can't think of ANYTHING related to a slant 6 that is "805."


"305," maybe (HP???,) but 805??????

Nope...

What is the reference that made you choose that number, and it had better be good, if you want this foggy-brained, old geezer to remember it!!!:protest:

805 is the area code i grew up in...
 
Bill should create a thread on how to do this so it can be a sticky instead of what I basically see as "Post pollution!"
 
The swap mounts for the Duster that will still use the /6 K-frame are about $40 dollars or so from Trans Dapt.

The /6 trans will not bolt up to a small block. You'll need a small block trans. Then converter, shortened driveshaft if you change trannys from a 904 to a 727, shifter, linkage, the list goes on.

I have a couple of questions here on this:
1. Where is that that you can get the V8 swap mounts for 40bucks? (can you just google Trans Dapt?) cause I did and didn't find anything there except S10 engine swap

2. Why can't you just buy a bell housing clutch, pressure plate, and throwout bearing, and use the same trans?

Why I ask is I did this very thing to a 74 Duster back in early 80's and had know problem with it and was quite a bit of fun. No I am not arguing just asking because you probably know way much more than I do about this sort of thing.
 
more "post pollution" from a guy that loves the sound of a V8. my duster came with a great running slant six. i picked up a low mile small block because i have owned nothing but 318/340/360/383/400/440s. something about the vicious sound of a V8 with dual exhaust and a nice cam. i spent 300 bucks on the SB and the 727, 40 on a radiator,150 on conversion mounts and 120 on the headers ,60 on my driveshaft. IMO, some of the best money i ever spent. it took me 6 hours to pull the 6 and have the SB up and running and driving. i have total respect for the /6 and these guys are making crazy HP with them, but for me , its the sound and performance of a V8 that i love. i will never go back as i sold off the six.but its all up to you whether or not you want to play with a V8 or a six. you can always go back and change it up, which is the benefit of having a /6 k frame, if you are into sixes. you'll never know unless you try it. the slant vs V8 is a mini -war that will never end, and yes i have had my clock cleaned by built /6s, but i love my V8s
 
The original poster said:

I have a 1972 Duster with a 225 and a factory 3 speed on the floor. Car runs great! BUT I have 318 with 6k on it.
I am toying with a slant 6 but it seems expensive compared to a V8 swap! The Duster runs perfect and is fun to drive just kinda gutless and the 3 speed seems to have all the wrong ratios.


I have attempted to answer his question about WHY he should consider not changing engines, by educating him about the reason(s) slant 6's are hard to make fast with conventional. bolt-on speed equipment, such as headers, more carburetion, etc.

I showed him an alternative, and explained some of the reasons for going that route.

I don't see that as "post-" or "thread-pollution," but I am not a moderator.

If you want to move all that stuff I wrote about valve sizes, ports, and small bores (and, ther effect on engine design) to a "sticky," I'll be happy to contribute to it; there's lots more to say. Turbo slants have a lot to offer, but it would appear that there's not a lot of information that is easily available to guys who are looking to gain performance, and don't want to break the bank.

I'm amenable to whatever you want to do with this subject; just let me know.:blob:
 
It's ok, Bill. I love how you're fired up about what YOU want to do. But let people make thier own minds up. You don't have to try to talk everybody and his brother into a turbo slant. Much as I agree with you that they are awesome, it's just not what everybody wants to do. Maybe a simple "hay have you thought about turbocharging?" would work. Less work for you and there's an open ended question that should get a black and white answer. I love the color green, but I don't spend a lot of time trying to convince other people to like it.
 
more "post pollution" from a guy that loves the sound of a V8. my duster came with a great running slant six. i picked up a low mile small block because i have owned nothing but 318/340/360/383/400/440s. something about the vicious sound of a V8 with dual exhaust and a nice cam. i spent 300 bucks on the SB and the 727, 20 on a radiator,150 on conversion mounts and 150 on the headers ,60 on my driveshaft. IMO, some of the best money i ever spent. it took me 3 hours to pull the 6 and have the SB up and running and driving. i have total respect for the /6 and these guys are making crazy HP with them, but for me , its the sound and performance of a V8 that i love. i will never go back as i sold off the six.but its all up to you whether or not you want to play with a V8 or a six. you can always go back and change it up, which is the benefit of having a /6 k frame, if you are into sixes. you'll never know unless you try it. the slant vs V8 is a mini -war that will never end, and yes i have had my clock cleaned by built /6s, but i love my V8s


I had a 340-powered '64 Valiant back in '72, and had a ton of fun with that car. I installed a Lunati cam, some fender-well headers, a 4.56:1 Sure Grip, and a 3,000-pound Hayes clutch. It was the 10.3:1 1971 motor, and sounded like 600 horsepower (was probably actually, more like 350.)

Then, I built this '72 Valiant with a 360 Magnum and a Vortech supercharger, which gives me all the thrills an old man can stand, when I stand on the loud pedal. It runs mid 11's in the quarter on 10 pounds of boost.

Not having ever owned a slant six anything, nor a turbocharged anything, this new car that I am attempting to put together with my partner, Freddie Nielsen is an unknown quantity in most respects, but we took the coward's way out and built a "copy-cat" motor, with the same specs as two other FABO slant six enthusiasts, so we wouldn't be totally in the dark, starting out.

Tom Wolfe, (Shaker233 on FABO) who built one of the turbocharged engines, schooled us on where to buy pistons (Wiseco) and rods (K-1) and what specs worked best for a cam. His engine is pretty close, (parts-wise) to the engine in Ryan Peterson's '66 Valiant, so between the two of them, our maiden voyage with this thing shouldn't be a complete guessing game.

Without their help, we'd still be trying to figure out how to get the head off... I'm not kidding....

So, my advice is, if you want to embark on a new modus operandus, and change horses in mid-stream, as the Packard ads used to say: "ask the man who owns one!" They have been immensely helpful to us!

Our car is in the body shop and the new paint should be ready to take home, Friday, they say.

The remaining work on the car is pretty minimal; installing fuel lines and some wiring. That's about it for the buildup; now we will have to wait for some warmer weather before we can run a few test-n-tune laps.

No denying that a V8 has the sound that everybody loves (me, too,) but I can't wait to hear this "UPS truck on steroids" I'm anticipating when this thing goes on boost!

If it runs anything like it should, our V8 cars (Freddie has a fuel-injected 360 Dart) won't stand a chance.... Neither my supercharged Valiant, nor Freddie's Dart would be much of a race for Tom's 11-flat '70 Dart, or Ryan's even faster '66 Valiant! I HOPE our car runs within a second of theirs....

Talk's cheap! We'll see!!!:cheers:
 
I have a couple of questions here on this:
1. Where is that that you can get the V8 swap mounts for 40bucks? (can you just google Trans Dapt?) cause I did and didn't find anything there except S10 engine swap

It's been awhile since I have searched these items. Long ago they were that cheap. Summit racing used to carry them. If you know the part number (As provided below in the link, you could try Summit and see if they can get it cheaper. Many times, the parent company sell's high to use on the retail level, but really cheap Ho-sale to places like Summit racing.

Go here, http://www.tdperformance.com/Engine-Swap-Motor-Mount-Kits
Scroll down, there are 2 kits, 1 for a big block, 1 for a small block. This is from Trans-Dapt direct.

2. Why can't you just buy a bell housing clutch, pressure plate, and throwout bearing, and use the same trans?
The slant 6 manual trans has a different bolt pattern, IIRC and therefore will not bolt up to a V8 bell. If I'm wrong, sorry.
 
Just boost the slant 6 and run circles around your small block while still enjoying the fuel mileage! :)
 
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