beanhead
Well-Known Member
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Today, dollar for dollar, is the 318 faster than the 340 ???
- Thread starter 318willrun
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Yeah kind of like tearing a engine down and then physically measuring the crank just to see if it even needs ground or if a simple polishing with emery cloth will work. Or looking and measuring a cylinder bore to see if it actually needs bored or if a simple honing will keep it within specs. Ect... physically measuring whether parts are within spec or not. Instead of throwing money at it
448Scamp
Running Free
No sense measuring anything if you are just going to run it. When the main bearing clearance is .0022 plus a couple of tenths minus zero and you have a journal with .0003 taper it’s already out of spec. I won’t run that. If you measure the bores and it has .0010 taper it will take another thou and a half to get it straight so that means the bore will be too big for the pistons. You can measure all you want but if you are using the FSM tolerances they are so sloppy it’s not worth measuring. Maybe you should go hang out with some real engine builders and see what they do. Unless you don’t want to learn little buddy.
Hmm so you just going to throw money at it without even measuring.. makes sense that you would do that. As it's pretty clear already that you have no idea as to why machine work can't and won't fix core shift. Then you try and bandage it up by throwing more money at a junk block. The friend I had probably would have scrapped your high dollar junk in the salvage yard. So go study core shift. And why it can't be fixed. And all of the areas that it effects and also why after spinning a main that the block is now crooked. Don't be cheap and lazy little buddy. Have faith you will get there. Just takes time
Yeah, actually using some skill. lol
It's funny, I never see any machine work being done in the pits when they run those 12,000 plus HP top fuel engines. I'm sure they may do a little.....mostly all I see are bearing and ring changes and the like. I guess they must not know the speed secrets of doing machine work on builds. You'd figure with the pounding those engines take, they'd want everything perfect, yet they run a lot of the same hard parts over and over. And win.
Dave_J
Well-Known Member
When you have a crank turned down say 0.010/0.010 and order a set of main bearings then using some 5W30 to oil the bearings and torque the main caps down you should be able to grab the 1 1/4 inch bolt and turn the crank. How easy it spins will tell you if you really need to have the Main web align honed.
When they align hone they can only go so far and if it will not clean up then a align bore will be needed. But an align bore and hone will mess up your timing chain spec as they take some metal off the block and the main caps and then bore them out to standard diameter. This little bit raises the crank up in the block 1/2 the over bore and the timing chain will be loose. NOT my choice of doing an engine and ONLY to be done on a 'Numbers Matching' block that is worth only what the car is worth with it.
My 1978 LRT has a warranty replacement block due to a chronic rear main leak. It has a huge W in the vin number area.
The original 360 was found to have a major defect in #5 main cap. The grove for the rope seal was too deep and the seal did not touch the crank.
To fix the block would have required a new cap and align bore then hone. They could have shimmed the rope seal up and it may have lasted till after the warranty expired.
I did not own the truck back then, I would have bought that block from the dealer then replaced the #5 cap.
When they align hone they can only go so far and if it will not clean up then a align bore will be needed. But an align bore and hone will mess up your timing chain spec as they take some metal off the block and the main caps and then bore them out to standard diameter. This little bit raises the crank up in the block 1/2 the over bore and the timing chain will be loose. NOT my choice of doing an engine and ONLY to be done on a 'Numbers Matching' block that is worth only what the car is worth with it.
My 1978 LRT has a warranty replacement block due to a chronic rear main leak. It has a huge W in the vin number area.
The original 360 was found to have a major defect in #5 main cap. The grove for the rope seal was too deep and the seal did not touch the crank.
To fix the block would have required a new cap and align bore then hone. They could have shimmed the rope seal up and it may have lasted till after the warranty expired.
I did not own the truck back then, I would have bought that block from the dealer then replaced the #5 cap.
Not if it's done correctly it won't change a thing. The correct procedure is to knock a little off the main caps where they meet the block, then assemble and torque them to spec in place. Then set it up on the bar and BARELY clean the block side up while taking the most material out of the caps. Doing it this way will change nothing concerning the timing chain. I've even seen shops lightly spray paint the crank saddles in the block so they can remove the absolute minimum from the block side. If the shop refuses to do it that way, find a new one.
Dave_J
Well-Known Member
I have seen a 440 block that a machinist's straight edge rocked on #3 saddle. Yes they did spray paint the saddles and bored to just wiping the paint off. But when done the timing chain was sloppy. It went into a motorhome. It was not one of my builds, I had no pony in that show. The motorhome owner demanded they just put it together as is. Shop foreman said no and Owner took it somewhere else. #3 bearing was thru the copper and on the steel before align bore/hone. Crank did clean up at 0.040" but still showed shadow marks.
I would have scraped the whole engine. It had been over heated so many times.
The foreman said he thought #3 was the only one that was true deck height. That block had major core shift well before all the overheat cycles that warped other stuff out of spec.
I was a US ARMY SP4 and worked part time at this NAPA machine shop @ $0.95 an hour. My job was to knock down the long blocks, box and tag everything. I had to straight edge most surfaces and chart them. Just about everything on this engine was red tagged.
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mygasser
Well-Known Member
of course you measure it, then you 'know' if the crank journals are within spec or if they do need to be ground and you 'know' if the bores have too much taper so will need to be bored or not. measuring is cheap to find out if machining (which is expensive) is required or not. your checkbook approach was made very clear in this one post, leave the rest to the cheapskates.
448Scamp
Running Free
Let me back up the short bus for you. The point I made and went right over your head is the fact that there is no sense measuring anything IF you use factory service limit specs. Simple as that. As I pointed out, a bore with .0010 taper won’t just clean up without taking a couple of thou out. Now, if the bore was sized correctly to begin with and you add another .0020 clearance you just lost some ring seal. That’s because the piston will rock in the bore even more and the rings are attached to the piston. So the ring is not longer parallel to the bore. And since most forged pistons go in at about .004 clearance, that extra .002 you just added increased your piston clearance by 50%. That’s a big increase. And the same holds true for bearing clearances. In your world, why measure anything? It will all run. In my world, using 21st century tolerances that just doesn’t fly. Maybe you should find some new engine builders to hang with. Evidently the dudes you hang with now are dumb as dirt.
448Scamp
Running Free
Thanks for this post. It’s perfectly clear now what your skill level is. Doing it your way you have no idea what your clearances are, or if they are all the same. A crank will turn by hand with .0005 clearance. And one bearing may have .0040 clearance and you wouldn’t know it. But boy, that crank sure does spin nice by hand. What you advocate for is no different than installing a cam dot to dot. Just crazy what you argue for. And anyone who can’t line hone or line bore a block without trashing it needs to find another profession. Done correctly nothing changes. It sounds to me like you just repeat what someone else said that heard it from someone else who got that from his grandmothers tarot card reader.
448Scamp
Running Free
Have you never heard the motto in the fuel pits??? I may not get it exactly as they say it, but this is close. Measure it with a yard stick, cut it with an axe. There isn’t much precision in a fuel engine. Clearances are humongous. Pro Stock is a different horse altogether. You don’t see them slapping new bearings or pistons in at the track. They have much closer clearances and tolerances than a fuel engine does. They run water thin oil where a fuel burner uses a 70 grade oil that when up to temperature is more like fudge than oil. Two different beasts for sure.
448Scamp
Running Free
What does core shift have to do with getting the mains straight and round? Do you see how idiotic this thread is and what it’s become? This is exactly what the OP wanted. I’ll say it again for your benefit, but I doubt there is a single engine builder on here who thinks you can take a 40 year old core and build a decent engine with a 3k budget. I posted the prices that showed how wrong you are. Yet you still argue form a place of gross ignorance. Take your own advice and go learn what it really costs
448Scamp
Running Free
I forgot to ask this question of you since you are toting the cheapskate banner as high as anyone. With your above example, was that crank turned to the high side? The low side? Maybe it’s in the middle? What about the main bores? Are they all the same size? On the high side of the tolerance? Low side? All over the place? It matters because if the crank is ground to the low side and the main bores are on the high side you can easily have .004 or so clearance. If the crank is on the high side and the mains are on the low side you can be under .0005 and the crank will still turn by hand easily. Again, like my cam timing example you method tells you nothing.
448Scamp
Running Free
Pay attention to my new posts. I’ll say it again to save you some time. If you are going to use OE service tolerance limits there is no sense measuring anything. The FSM says most anything will run. And it will. It will just be running quite sorry. No sense measuring something when you don’t care how loose or tight it is right? Or how straight and round it is. Just keep that 1980 budget in tact.
Oh my it's the line bored, coreshifted, tight clearance forged piston, half assed balanced soap box standing guy. Back to tell the lowley peons how to build a engine right.
We ain't so smart boss but we can lift heavy thangs.
Meanwhile for the purpose of this thread I'm going to go yank one of these running 5.2's out of a ram or dakota that's been factory proven and still running. Then maybe do some valve grinding/polishing.
Then drop a camshaft in it. And put it in my 72 duster and go out and embarras quite a few of the $6,000 boat anchors. And have maybe $1,500 into it.
Thread is 318 or 340 you have $3,000 what you going to do? No more than $3,000. No saving for more money , no pimping your sister or mom out for more money I'm going to take the 318 on that all day
448Scamp
Running Free
So this machinist couldn’t fix a mainline so no machinist can? I can tell you it happens every day, all over the country. Again, how do you know what the clearances are if you don’t line hone the block? You can’t. You can measure each bore but that won’t make them the same and it won’t make them straight and round. You do that with a hone. Thank God it’s not 1975 again.
I agree, a newer 5.2 with a $3000 budget could make for a decent engine. a 318 LA not so much.
448Scamp
Running Free
You can’t use a 5.2 because the OP didn’t write it in his rules package. And I doubt I’d run the stock pistons and bores in one of those either. Factory machining was never better than decent.
448Scamp
Running Free
Wow. You have an inferiority complex for sure. The fuel engine saying I posted is real. Too bad your just too obstinate to see how foolish you are.
I get what your saying, I'm just saying what I would do back in the day with my limited budget.
My budget has increased by a bunch since 1978 when I was 16. my cores back then were under 10 years old.
I acquired a 68 383 Roadrunner engine with less than 20,000 miles on it from a wrecked car.
I still have that engine and quite a few other big blocks.
Is what I'm saying is 448Scamp still has a cobbled up scrap iron core shifted block. Type of guy that puts $7,000 into a block with core shifted and align bored. Then won't check every lobe on the camshaft to make sure it's all within spec then takes his core shifted block and gets it zero decked instead of square decked. Then does valve train geometry on one cylinder of this core shifted block. Not even realizing that the geometry might not be correct for all cylinders because of the core shift. Then gets forged pistons and runs a tight .006 on a core shifted block. That when it warms up the hot spots in the cylinders start going out of round and then his forged pistons expand and they start dragging in the bores. Then the weakened main bearing spun align bored block that has its integrity compromised and has been stressed starts vibrating around while the high pressure oil pump is putting out enough pressure that it's pushing the oil through faster than its lubricating the internals.
Don't worry I used to think like you and your machinist before. And then I learned the RIGHT WAY to build a engine. But I have been in your shoes been there done that got the t-shirt.
Don't worry I used to think like you and your machinist before. And then I learned the RIGHT WAY to build a engine. But I have been in your shoes been there done that got the t-shirt.
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