Totally Dissapointed!!!!!

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middleagecrisis said:
I'm running a Mellings HV pump with 15W-40 Shell Rotella oil on my SB (with a stock pan). I don't have pressure fluctuations, oil loss, oil consumption or any other oil problems. I've got 50 psi @idle and 75 psi at 3000 rpm (cruise). I'm also running one PCV valve. To suggest his problems are oil pump related is off-base. I'd suspect excessive blow-by from poor ring seating. If the motor was put together and machined correctly, then this thread wouldn't exist. Run a leak down check and confirm the obvious.
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Same here, my pressures are similar cold however. I run a HV pump, 15w-40, 3.91s and no fluctuations or consumption really. About 30 passes down the 1/4, few dyno pulls, and hard daily driving..
 
The best they could tell me today was the top ring was a moly coated and the second was a cast ring. I guess one could look into the kit ( posted above )and ask the supplier what rings came with the kit? When i walked in the office guy said start the clock and that's when i told them i wasn't paying no more $90 sessions for nothing happening. The office guy at the shop today kind of hinted if there was a problem it was someone elses fault on break in procedure. What a crock of crap. This motor might now have 500 miles on it. I ask him about the new 440 setting in my shop that they built and was i going to have this issue come up. I told him i would put the motor in the Duster and get it running then load it on a trailer and bring it to him and he could work his magic. What's your thoughts
 
Read my post above. I recommend either you get someone independent or you perform a leakdown check on your motor. I wouldn't trust the shop that did the work further than I could throw any of them.
 
If they are charging you to support a product of their shop they are crooked bastards! They KNOW they sold you a POS and are just taking your money as long as you are willing to hand it to them! You should feel insulted, as I believe it is their intention to insult you with your own money. I would contact your local Better Business Bureau. Are they an AERA member? ( www.aera.org ) If you give them any more money, you are weakening your own case in court (in fact giving them ANY can be twisted to mean that you acknowledge voiding the warranty). Sorry if I seem harsh here, but I really dislike crooks!

Was there a stated warranty on the engine? If they are claiming improper break in, they have no intentions of honoring any warranty anyhow. If they cant tell you exactly what rings are in the engine, much less the end gap (which does matter A LOT on the KB pistons, as the top ring sits quite high and MUST have a larger gap), that leads me to believe that they don't know and don't care (or worse, know that they screwed up). The technician who assembled the engine should have taken notes on all clearances, and should have given you that with the invoice, or at least upon request.

As suggested by others, find another shop, preferably one who has never heard of the place that assembled the engine. Do a compression/leakdown test. That will tell you real quick if there is a major problem with the shortblock. Go from there.
 
C130 is dead on. I recently re-ringed a 383 because an owner decided it wasnt running well enough, mistuned a brand new engine that actually had some poor wiring, and the rings never seated. I learned a little more lately about ring sealing. First, moly is a coating, not the ring material. It's srayed on and allows for very fast initial ring seating...Provided the surface finish of the bore is smooth enough, and clean enough. If it's too rough, all you do is wear off the moly in a few minutes running, and the rings cannot seat properly. In times past, you'd run ductile iron rings, anda semi rough bore finish, so the bore and rings wore into each other in about 500 miles. Now, they should be finishing the hone with a very fine stone to finish size, then using a plateau hone or brush hone to properly prep the walls for moly rings. Also, as C130 said, KBs require special ring gaps on the top ring. If the shop used std Hastings replacement rings for 318+.030, the top rings may have butted already. They must be opening up with a ring filer to get the "right" and safe clearance. Also, I use 30wt oil to assemble my engines. However, toom much oil on these rings and smooth surfaces will also make it hard for the rings to seat. There has to be just the right balance between too smooth and too rough for them to work. And too much oil on assembly can hurt this relationship. I now use WD40 alone on the rings if the egnien is to be fired within days. If it's being shipped, I use off the shelf 10-30, but very little. Like a few drops on my fingers, rub around the pistons rings, and hit the bores with WD40. Then assemble. I got that tip from several other large race shops, and it works fine, as long as the enigne fires right up after prelubing with a shaft. I've used plenty of HV pumps wiht no ill effects, but it is known to happen on occasion. The HV pumps were to help bandaid worn engines, not lubricate fresh ones. Use an HP one with the higher releif valve pressure but standard volume. I'd still do the leak down test. That will tell you if the rings are sealing. That test uses air pressure to see how well things seal, and has a gage that reads percentage leaking by on it. I use a MOroso one, but there are tons of them around.
 
Chief: Sleep good tonite knowing they won't get anymore of my money. That aint happenen. I'm not a big spender but i figure in the next 10 yrs i'll spend $60,000 on motors and machine work which they have screwed themselves out of. I've been using another shop on my check outs of the blocks, cranks, and heads i've been gathering. It was ask earlier as to the method and info on how to do a leak down test. Still would like to know in detail. Maybe a website or something i could buy so you don't have to go into great detail here. If it takes special tools just tell me. I'm a tool freak and will buy what i need. Love to learn. Warranties to me don't mean much from anyone on anything. You tell me you'll stand behind something that's all i need. You screw me for $100 then i just bought your *** for $100. No sweat. You can tell which ones you own as they will walk down the other isle in the store to avoid you and won't look you in the eye. I buy people every day. Some cheap . Some high.
Chief, as to your previous question on oil. I'm now running 10-40 gtx. On the normal driving issue, I doesn't seem to use any oil just driving around town but and smokes very little if any BUT get into it and it smokes like a freight train. I ask the boys at the shop what they would like for me to tell folks that ask me who built my smoking motor? They sort a gave me a dumb look.

Info on the leak down test please guys. Thanks
 
smoking?? that right there is means to tear the engine apart. you could have some very jacked up rings if the engine wasnt broke in corectly.
 
Zak: I would like to hear yet another procedure for breaking in a new engine. I've heard a bunch of ways and opinions but i'd like to hear yours.
 
Breaking in an engine beyond the first few minutes is mostly ring seating. If moly (faced) rings are used, and the bores are finished correctly, this is nearly instant, but can take up to a couple hundred miles. Lycoming and Continental advise high power first flights for new cylinders on aircraft engines. We baby ours, go figure.

Now, repeat after me: "Clearances never wear in, they only wear out." Right up there with "Measure twice and cut once." And in engine building, they are related. Heres the point I am driving at; if the top ring gap wasn't sufficient, they could have gone solid and either fluttered or broke. Not good. Al leakdown will show this.

So, what is a leakdown and how is it done? The cylinder is placed at TDC (usually), the crank locked in position, and compressed air applied. Next the air is switched off and the rate of leakdown is measured over a fixed period of time. Drop in pressure divided by the original pressure gives you a leakdown percent. Even better, you can generally hear where the air is leaking (crankcase, intake or exhaust port). This test is a really good indicator of engine health (as far as power potential goes) and that is why airplane engine compression checks are done this way. Besides recruiting your friendly neighborhood A&P, any "performance" machine shop should have this capability. Also, leakdown testers are available through Racer Wholesale, Summit and the other usual suspects, but not super cheap.
 
I tried to buy the tools at Oreilly's and they are looking for them for me but then i called another shop and they said they had what it takes to do the job so i scheduled an appointment to get it done Monday A.M. but i need some info so i don't get hosed. How long should the test be per cylinder. They should run pressure up to how many lbs? Any other issues i should be aware of? After the findings on this test i will probably change the oil pump to a standard pump and when i pull the pan there should be a windage tray in the 318? I know the 71 340's had em but not sure on the 318's . Anyone know?
Hey Chief: Thanks for your service for us civilians. I mean it from way down inside. If ever in West Plains, i'm buyin the steaks.
 
Well im sure you have heard a lot of ways as have i. But so far i have found that taking it easy for the first 500 miles just driving the car around has had good results. i do know a kid that did the "hard brake in" 2500 rpm for 30 min. That engine still runs like a champ 5 years later.
 
I sell leak down testers for about $120. I don't have the instructions handy but you regulate the output pressure and compare the two gauge readings. There is a chart included that gives a percentage of leakage. I have sold quite a few in the past years and they seem to work quite well.
toolmanmike
 
I would let the mechanic performing the test chose his pressures and times. Aircraft engines are done at 80 PSI but that is an arbitrary standard (a/c engines typically have large bores, and low compression, also some poor guy is holding the prop still by hand). Most shop air compressors regulate out around 150 psi tops, so anticipate a number well below that. As far as time is concerned, you should be able to detect a "dead tree in the forrest" pretty quick, and tell a lot within 30 seconds. You are comparing cylinders, so just keep it the same for all eight and you'll be fine. There are professional engine builders who frequent these forums, and hopefully they will chime in.

As far as the oil pump goes, hold off. Best to confirm the basic health of your engine. A HV pump is overkill for a street engine, and your previous posts indicate you are having oil control problems, BUT lets look at the big picture for a minute. A 20 psi spread in compression is quite a lot for a new engine; and 150 psi cranking (depending on your method/equipment) seems a bit low for the cam you are running. Howz 'bout we verify the health of your basic setup, and then let's argue over the details.
 
IIRC the instructions for my gages say 100psi. Testing pressures can be gage specific too. As long as you keep it constant, and the compressor is big enough to move the volume of air a leaky engine will use, you're fine.
 
I have the appointment monday 8 am for the leakdown test and till then i will put it all on hold until i see the results of the test. I'll keep you posted as soon as i get something solid. Thanks Guys.
 
Talked to the shop owner today and he said 1 minute would tell the story on the test. The cost would be $35 for the test. I gave him the details on the oil pressure fluctuation and consumption and he was amaized. He said that aint' right. So i told him i would bring in cam specs and told him to do what he needed to do to determine the problem. I bekeive we're on the right track. I'll keep you posted.
 
I had a thought today as I was thinking about your oil pressure problem. Dis the machine shop boil the block to clean it? There is a plug in the block that is under the rear main cap that if out of place can cause all sorts of oil pressure problems. If you cook the block to clean it the plug can come out. Machine shops that don't know Mopars wouldn't even know it was there. Just a thought. toolmanmike
 
Your oil presssure drop still indicates you are emptying the pan. BUT, check the rings first as that will dictate either an in-car fix or teardown.

If you have ring problems and the crankcase goes positive pressure at high RPM, drainback will suffer. In fact the engine will want to blow it's oil into the valve covers. Could be one problem making another worse.

Do the leakdown. That will help you decide whether or not its worth the time to chase other problems or just pull the whole mess apart and start over.
 
Toolman: Yes the block was boiled out and cleaned. Don't know about the plug but will check. I'm with you Chief on the oil issue and after the test we will make a move. I really thank you guys for staying with me on this thing till we get her figured out. I'll definatly keep you posted.
 
toolmanmike said:
If you cook the block to clean it the plug can come out. Machine shops that don't know Mopars wouldn't even know it was there. Just a thought. toolmanmike
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that plug better have come out. It's part of the "strip and clean" routine. If it's left in, all kinds of debris goe thru the engine's oiling system when it fires again. You ant get a cleaning brush past it, so there is always stuff left there. I've also found a 2nd plug installed over the first because they didnt remove it, and the next guy didnt notice...NICE...
 
Well here they are. Starting at the drivers side front and going back they are:

#1 63%
#3 18%
#5 15%
#7 85%
#2 57%
#4 20%
#6 22%
#8 10%

The tester in his opinion said this was not a wash out issue. Plugs looked good. I went to the shop with results in hand and had a pow wow with the guy that sold the shop to someone else and still has his name on it. I weighed it out for him and told him i wanted to be fair as always and recommended they replace the rings and do any machining necessary to complete the job and i would buy new 11.5:1 or so comp pistons for them to install as they were putting it back together. That's with me pulling the motor and taking it to them. I told him if he mentioned the term pump gas again i would slap him. I told him when i couldn't afford to spike my tank with 5 gal of 110 i'd sell all my cars. He thought that offer was more than fair but thought the pulling of the motor was a lot of work. I said fine i'll let him do it and i thought that would be a very nice jesture on winning my confidence in the shop. I told him to call me when he talked to the owner. That was late this evening. Nothing yet.
The tester has no faith in KB pistons. What piston should i go with for the jump up on compression. This is a 318 with 360 J heads with a little port/gasket matching. Thanks guys and let me know something.
 
I dont know of any company that make pistons that will give you that much compression from a 318. Actually I cant think of a company that has performance pistons at all for a 318 other then KB. You will need to get something custom made.

Your 360 head will lower your compression unless the chambers have been milled also.
 
What KB pistons are in your motor ? They have 2 listed for 318s The KB167 flat tops which is 9:1 with a 68cc head or 9.5:1 with a 64cc head and the KB399 domed that will give you your 11:1 compression with a 64cc chamber.

You'll need to mill the heads to get a 64cc chamber. I see nothing wrong with using the KB pistons aslong as the ring gap instructions are followed.
 
Yep: They are KB167 .030. They are 68 cc heads so how much milling will be necessary to get to 64 cc or can it be done? How much milling would need to be done on the intake to keep the bolts lined up? I'm going to bed and read my Mopar Muscle and see if i can find a SB recipe. I'll check back tomorrow.
 
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