Trick Flow small block heads

-
I think it’s kinda funny how after one test, that yielded underwhelming results, and now the sky is falling under the TF heads.

The RPM(and copycat) heads have been out for quite a while now, and there have been some pretty impressive motors built using them.
They are a known quantity, yet not every motor that uses them makes impressive numbers.

Would you let the poor results of those underachievers influence your decision on using RPM heads if those were what you felt were the right choice for the application?
Or, do you look at the poorer performing builds as just being less than optimum combinations......and that the lackluster power output isn’t the “fault” of the head.

I generally like to come to my own conclusions with this stuff....... so I’ll probably just continue to assume the TF’s would work just fine...... for the type of application I feel they’re suited towards.
 
Last edited:
j par said:
The problem is yr often confuses entertainment with true knowledge....
My question is if there's room for porting on these new trick flow heads then why are they not maximized from the get-go? If indeed bigger is better. Why is trick flow waiting for other people to do dyno test sheets and stuff like that? Wasn't this part of the process of making the head? Or was it just see how big we can make the ports in a stock configuration? Which leads me back to my first question...
Click to expand...

Because not everybody needs the biggest/ most flow/ most HP potential head. It all has to work together.
 
At the end of the day i think people are going to find a well sorted out stroker bracket combo with a good flat tappet cam with these heads will make 600 horse
And i think maybe even 650 with an aggressive roller and some serious squeeze
 
justinp61 said:
Because not everybody needs the biggest/ most flow/ most HP potential head. It all has to work together.
Click to expand...
I agree not everybody needs the biggest and I also agree that the combination of things working together is the best. But in the back of my mind I'm thinking this is the race part of the forum, these are the new trick flow heads ! I'm thinking maximization...
 
PRH said:
I think it’s kinda funny how after one test, that yielded underwhelming results, and now the sky is falling under the TF heads.

The RPM(and copycat) heads have been out for quite a while now, and there have been some pretty impressive motors built using them.
They are a known quantity, yet not every motor that uses them makes impressive numbers.

Would you let the poor results of those underachievers influence your decision on using RPM heads if those were what you felt were the right choice for the application?
Or, do you look at the poorer performing builds as just being less than optimum combinations......and that the lackluster power output isn’t the “fault” of the head.

I generally like to come to my own conclusions with this stuff....... so I’ll probably just continue to assume the TF’s would work just fine...... for the type of application I feel they’re suited towards.
Click to expand...

I think that part of that is because TF has set such a high standard in the past, that we all expect it to work right out of the box this time. Fair or not, that is the way it is. They published flow numbers that SHOULD in most peoples mind produce better numbers. That was the case with Gray's, the big block TF heads responded well to proven set ups quite well, and they expected the same from the new heads. It is only one engine build, and it will get sorted out, just not as easily as maybe some of us hoped.
 
justinp61 said:
Because not everybody needs the biggest/ most flow/ most HP potential head. It all has to work together.
Click to expand...


Exactly. When I first started talking to the TrickFlow guys at Norwalk 6,7,8 years ago before they made anything for Mopars I would go into their tent at the Halloween Classic and drool over their Chevy and Ford products. My fingerprints were all over their heads and when I finally talked to one of the guys I asked him why no Mopar products. He said what do you guys need and I went on to tell him we had LOTS of big block choices but almost nothing for small blocks. He asked me if I would mind talking to the rest of the guys with him and said he agreed with me. Being tight lipped he said a head was in the works but could not give details. Shortly after the 240 big block head was released. I was introduced to the owner of Trickflow shortly after and he told me to keep my eyes open for a new product release. soon after that the 270 head came to market. They were more than pleased with the results from the Mopar market. It only made sense to release a street friendly head when they made the small block heads. Not saying we are cheap but we want intakes that fit and off the shelf rocker arms that we already own. The thing that really pleases me is the owner is a racer himself and they are willing to listen. They sponsor races and pay for using their products. Who knows what the future brings to the table but I'm excited about the future.
 
Can you point me to a dyno test of a 440 with ootb TF240’s....... built around that mild of a combo...... tested on a dyno where the numbers of other builds could easily be compared?

I’ve tested an equally mild 505 with stage 1 RPM’s that made less hp/ci than that Grays 408.
Nothing “wrong” with the 505 build either...... that’s just what you get from that type of build.

It’s certainly possible that the TF SB head won’t be as much of a game changer as the 240 BB head was....... but I have no doubt it will prove itself to be a very good piece when used on a build that can take advantage of it.

My impression of the Grays build is....... they were expecting those heads to “transform” that mild street build into a fire breather.
They were looking for magic........ and didn’t get it.
Doesn’t mean the heads aren’t good.
 
Last edited:
pittsburghracer said:
Exactly. When I first started talking to the TrickFlow guys at Norwalk 6,7,8 years ago before they made anything for Mopars I would go into their tent at the Halloween Classic and drool over their Chevy and Ford products. My fingerprints were all over their heads and when I finally talked to one of the guys I asked him why no Mopar products. He said what do you guys need and I went on to tell him we had LOTS of big block choices but almost nothing for small blocks. He asked me if I would mind talking to the rest of the guys with him and said he agreed with me. Being tight lipped he said a head was in the works but could not give details. Shortly after the 240 big block head was released. I was introduced to the owner of Trickflow shortly after and he told me to keep my eyes open for a new product release. soon after that the 270 head came to market. They were more than pleased with the results from the Mopar market. It only made sense to release a street friendly head when they made the small block heads. Not saying we are cheap but we want intakes that fit and off the shelf rocker arms that we already own. The thing that really pleases me is the owner is a racer himself and they are willing to listen. They sponsor races and pay for using their products. Who knows what the future brings to the table but I'm excited about the future.
Click to expand...
Good stuff..
An even more open small block version still to come..?
 
DrEamer said:
So, I pose to you the same question, what combination would you go with? I am wondering if something like Comp's XFI or even (gulp) LS style lobe would work better.
Click to expand...


I would have NEVER used a dual plane intake. Funny thing is, TF is making a manifold, essentially for these heads, and it's basically a 45 year old design that has the plenum updated. TF isn't stupid. They developed what they thought would work best with that head.

As for cam timing, it's too combination related. But no FING way is 400 inches going to use cam timing that is that short. Duration. And lift. It's too small for what they were doing.

At that displacement, figuring a 3500 pound car, a 3500 converter and a 3.73 gear (maybe 3.55) you need to be in the high 240's for at .050 timing, net lift needs to be at least .550 and because you are induction limited, and gave up a ton of R/S ratio, an LSA of 106-108 is where it needs to be.

With that timing, you can expect a max power RPM of maybe 6200 and shift at 6500, maybe 6600. Maybe.

And, I wouldn't build it with less that an actual, measured 10.75:1 and 11:1 would be better.

If you want to make power higher than that, either make the heads bigger (and now you get to the point where you are out of room), use a 50 degree seat (I'd do that no matter what) and start welding on the intake manifold because it needs to get bigger too. And it just can't be bigger, it needs to be shaped correctly, and that starts with the valve job.
 
B3422w5 said:
At the end of the day i think people are going to find a well sorted out stroker bracket combo with a good flat tappet cam with these heads will make 600 horse
And i think maybe even 650 with an aggressive roller and some serious squeeze
Click to expand...


600 maybe but after that, you are going to spend way more than it's worth to get more power out of that architecture.
 
DrEamer said:
I think that part of that is because TF has set such a high standard in the past, that we all expect it to work right out of the box this time. Fair or not, that is the way it is. They published flow numbers that SHOULD in most peoples mind produce better numbers. That was the case with Gray's, the big block TF heads responded well to proven set ups quite well, and they expected the same from the new heads. It is only one engine build, and it will get sorted out, just not as easily as maybe some of us hoped.
Click to expand...


Again, don't swallow the flow numbers and die by them. Damn, I keep saying it over and over and it's not sinking in. Just because a head flows X CFM doesn't mean it will make the same or more power as another head with the same CFM.
 
yellow rose said:
600 maybe but after that, you are going to spend way more than it's worth to get more power out of that architecture.
Click to expand...

Imo, that's the make or break number.

If they won’t make an honest 600hp(ootb) on a “suitable” bracket race type short block, then they’re not as good as they really should be.

I think they’d do it though.

I’ve made 589hp from RPM’s that weren’t anything too special.

We did a “hot street” 410 a few years ago.
10.5cr, tweaked RPM’s, Victor, qft 850, small/slow solid roller 251/259-108, .600/.600.
I wasn’t the one who tested it, and it sure looks like there was power left on the table with the tune up...... but it made 524tq/538hp as it was.
The a/f ratio was still way rich(11’s) and I feel like there was probably another 10-15hp in it with the carb sorted out better.
 
Last edited:
yellow rose said:
600 maybe but after that, you are going to spend way more than it's worth to get more power out of that architecture.
Click to expand...

I think that other 50 horse will be there without a lot of chasing.
Say that because of a similar type build i had
416, W5 heads, 11.5 compression, 260/266 flat tappet, 597/623 lift. “ standard” ringpack.
Brett Miller modified Victor W2 intake. 1 7/8 TTI W5 headers
In a 3350 pound A body that combo ran 10.30’s @ 129 ish.
Broke the cast crank and tore up the shortblock late that season
The next season i took the same heads, headers, intake, carb etc on top of a 422
Difference was 043 ringpack, 273/280@ 50 roller that was 699/672, and 13.3 compression. Roller wasnt a spring killer, i drove that everywhere.... springs were 240/590. More aggressive profile later on made more steam on that combo
Changed nothing else on the car, just the shortblock
9.85@ 135.............. not sure what that difference was, but its more than 50 horse.
This is a car i raced year in , year out for a long time
I think the TF heads would show less difference than above, because they aren't as “ big” but i bet they would show 70% or so of that difference

Edit.... to take it a step further, the W5’s went 10.30’s that one season before i broke the motor. As i posted above
They replaced an eddie top end. Moderate porting from Hensley. Excellerator intake, tti step headers, same everything else including the 260/266 cam
That combo i ran for a few years. 10.74@ 124.60 best

Guess the moral of the above story is a good head shines much more with stuff under it to use it
W5’s on that 416 were limited by that camshaft, that was fine on the eddies.
The trick flow heads should be able to get a typical A body bracket car in the 9’s fairly easily
My stuff has always been heavy because i am 300+ and like steel everything, no glass.
 
Last edited:
PRH said:
Imo, that's the make or break number.

If they won’t make an honest 600hp(ootb) on a “suitable” bracket race type short block, then they’re not as good as they really should be.

I think they’d do it though.

I’ve made 589hp from RPM’s that weren’t anything too special.

We did a “hot street” 410 a few years ago.
10.5cr, tweaked RPM’s, Victor, qft 850, small/slow solid roller 251/259-108, .600/.600.
I wasn’t the one who tested it, and it sure looks like there was power left on the table with the tune up...... but it made 524tq/538hp as it was.
The a/f ratio was still way rich(11’s) and I feel like there was probably another 10-15hp in it with the carb sorted out better.
Click to expand...


I agree totally.

I just don't get the panic over this. First, the dyno numbers were called into question. Grey is not some poser.

Then the head is declared substandard because the dyno numbers didn't pan out the way the forum thought they should.

I've seen the heads. Had my hands on them. For an OOTB head they are about the best I've seen.

If they were mine, I'd do a 50 degree seat on them and go. I wouldn't even fluff the short turns, unless I got them on the bench and didn't like what I saw.

They should do 600 with a well thought out combo. Like I said, after 600 HP it gets to be a ***** to get more power out of that architecture.
 
B3422w5 said:
I think that other 50 horse will be there without a lot of chasing.
Say that because of a similar type build i had
416, W5 heads, 11.5 compression, 260/266 flat tappet, 597/623 lift. “ standard” ringpack.
Brett Miller modified Victor W2 intake. 1 7/8 TTI W5 headers
In a 3350 pound A body that combo ran 10.30’s @ 129 ish.
Broke the cast crank and tore up the shortblock late that season
The next season i took the same heads, headers, intake, carb etc on top of a 422
Difference was 043 ringpack, 273/280@ 50 roller that was 699/672, and 13.3 compression. Roller wasnt a spring killer, i drove that everywhere.... springs were 240/590. More aggressive profile later on made more steam on that combo
Changed nothing else on the car, just the shortblock
9.85@ 135.............. not sure what that difference was, but its more than 50 horse.
This is a car i raced year in , year out for a long time
I think the TF heads would show less difference than above, because they aren't as “ big” but i bet they would show 70% or so of that difference
Click to expand...


I get what you are saying, but the W5 has a raised intake port. And, it uses an offset rocker. That's a big departure from the stock passenger car architecture.
 
yellow rose said:
I get what you are saying, but the W5 has a raised intake port. And, it uses an offset rocker. That's a big departure from the stock passenger car architecture.
Click to expand...

I may be all wet, but i bet that TF head on a “ trick” shortblock and with a 2.05 valve will ultimately get within 50 horse of an all out W5 deal.
Guy i sold that car to has been 9.60’s at right at 140 at 3200 pounds.
Admittedly in East coast stellar air. Got there by gas porting the pistons, another point in compression, more aggressive roller, and 130 pounds less race weight.
That deal was dyno’ed at 705 ish at Best Machine. About the stoutest W5 deal i know of. ET slips back up the pulls. 140@3220
Someone will find a little something in that TF over how its shipped. Guy on Moparts said it liked a 2.05 valve and some touchup work to the valve job
 
I just don't get the panic over this. First, the dyno numbers were called into question. Grey is not some poser.

Then the head is declared substandard because the dyno numbers didn't pan out the way the forum thought they should.
Click to expand...

That’s my take on it as well.

I agree that motor is a bit of an underachiever........ but at the same time I’m not surprised the “magic” didn’t happen with that mild of a combo.

In time, all the answers will be revealed.
 
image.jpeg
image.jpeg
image.jpeg


These heads did 685 at about 86-8700 on 345 inches. That was with a fully welded Pro Dominator. At that time, I was using an UD cam that was 288/296 and .640/.640 on a 109, so it was way short on lift, and with that much cam timing it wanted to shift past 9k. So I installed it at 100 and made it a bit better. This was also on alcohol.

That's what cross section it took to get there. No doubt, I made mistakes with these castings. That's why I've kept them. They made 310 on my flow bench with a 2.100 valve.

When I went to the W5 head, I could reduce the at .050 timing all the way down to 274/278 and the only reason for the 4 degree split was alcohol. Had it been on gas it would have been 274/274. The lift was .758/.735 on a 109 LSA in at 105.

The W5 head was far and away better. I even used a 55 degree seat on that. The chamber sucks big ***. The steeper seat helped. Any time you can get away from stock architecture, the better off you'll be.
 
PRH said:
Can you point me to a dyno test of a 440 with ootb TF240’s....... built around that mild of a combo...... tested on a dyno where the numbers of other builds could easily be compared?

I’ve tested an equally mild 505 with stage 1 RPM’s that made less hp/ci than that Grays 408.
Nothing “wrong” with the 505 build either...... that’s just what you get from that type of build.

It’s certainly possible that the TF SB head won’t be as much of a game changer as the 240 BB head was....... but I have no doubt it will prove itself to be a very good piece when used on a build that can take advantage of it.

My impression of the Grays build is....... they were expecting those heads to “transform” that mild street build into a fire breather.
They were looking for magic........ and didn’t get it.
Doesn’t mean the heads aren’t good.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, I don't have dyno sheet, I just have to trust the engine builder on this one. I have no reason to doubt his word since their introduction, the 240's and 270's have proven to be a great versatile heads. I do know that Grey's said that they had to run the 240's richer then other heads that they because they were moving air faster even at lower RPMs, and the the SB heads seemed to be the same as any other SB head. Granted, a smaller port is going to harder to get a measurable difference.

I do agree that maybe we are expecting too much from these right now from these heads with mild builds, but we can always want more right. :D
 
There are several mild BB Mopar builds with TF 240’s on Grays Facebook page that have very similar hp/ci compared to the 408(numbers are within a few hp).
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
-

Back
Top