Trick Flow small block heads

[khuebner250]

Okay....... so is there any way of seeing a couple of sheets for any of the pulls?

As you can see, by bringing up the questions about the data in the first posts, it’s revealed that some of that info was erroneous.
Had it not been brought up, that erroneous info would be out there forever.

I agree, I'm appreciative for sure. That's why I had questions in the first place. That's also why I kept quoting you in my responses. I now you understand all this. So thank you for taking the time. I broke my own cardinal rule, "Do not speak on subjects, in which, you're not educated in"

I only have the one print out for the 546 pull with me. I'll have to go back to reprint a couple runs but that won't be for a week or so.

 

[rumblefish360]

Breaking the cardinal rule?
Talking about what you don’t know about in the form of questions and fact finding is fine and that is what you have done in my eyes.

Now talking crap like you know something when you don’t isn’t what you did.

 

[j par]

I find it interesting that the air fuel ratio would show that much of a difference from one side to the other? It makes me think about the one that I have that's just on the driver side and I always would assume that the passenger side would be very close not the possibility of a complete point of difference one way or the other...

 

[PRH]

Is there any indication on that sheet depicting whether or not the tq/hp numbers are corrected or not?

Are there any fuel flow numbers(in lbs/hr)and bsfc numbers?

“Usually” there is some type of heading so you know what type of data you’re looking at.

 

[skrews]

I find it interesting that the air fuel ratio would show that much of a difference from one side to the other? It makes me think about the one that I have that's just on the driver side and I always would assume that the passenger side would be very close not the possibility of a complete point of difference one way or the other...

You'd be surprised at how far off each cylinder can be when you have O2 sensors in each primary.

 

[khuebner250]

Breaking the cardinal rule?
Talking about what you don’t know about in the form of questions and fact finding is fine and that is what you have done in my eyes.

Now talking crap like you know something when you don’t isn’t what you did.

Thanks for that. You'll notice I won't even type the "ridiculous" number. My intent was not to misconstrue and misinform. I should have taken a day to decompress and process everything. I was just relieved it held itself together and didn't flatten the cam. That was my end goal.

 

[khuebner250]

Is there any indication on that sheet depicting whether or not the tq/hp numbers are corrected or not?

Are there any fuel flow numbers(in lbs/hr)and bsfc numbers?

“Usually” there is some type of heading so you know what type of data you’re looking at.

View attachment 1715358725

View attachment 1715358726

It doesn't have any data listed. At the end of the run It pulls up the graph and the chart. And then you can print either from there. I'm currently at a parade. So Happy Independence Day!

 

[j par]

Thanks for that. You'll notice I won't even type the "ridiculous" number. My intent was not to misconstrue and misinform. I should have taken a day to decompress and process everything. I was just relieved it held itself together and didn't flatten the cam. That was my end goal.

So it was the General consensus of the Dyno operator that this was merely for cam break in only? So likely they're mostly concerned about oil pressure and RPM? I think I was nervous the first time I broke a cam in, but after that it's been let it rip...

 

[pittsburghracer]

So it was the General consensus of the Dyno operator that this was merely for cam break in only? So likely they're mostly concerned about oil pressure and RPM? I think I was nervous the first time I broke a cam in, but after that it's been let it rip...

I started building a very nice engine break-in stand for this but like many of my projects it’s 85% done and on the for sale list. Lol

 

[DrEamer]

....My intent was not to misconstrue and misinform. I should have taken a day to decompress and process everything. I was just relieved it held itself together and didn't flatten the cam. That was my end goal.

No harm, I did the same thing because I was excited to actually talk to someone that had dynoed a pair and reported their findings. Probably not my place to do so, but they also posted those numbers on their own Facebook page so it is public knowledge. Right now there is very little real experience with these, so that every little morsel of information is dissected and over analyzed. I think in part since we have so few options verses what other manufactures get for good heads, these will continue to get a lot of attention until there is enough data. Hats off to you for buying a set, and doing the best of your ability to report some numbers.

 

[PRH]

Looked at the original graph again...... saw this down in the corner after I blew up the pic:

If there were fuel flow and bsfc numbers available, the uncorrected power could be calculated.

Plugging the OP’s weather data(25.7”, 90*, 42.3%) into the Wallace Racing dyno correction calculator..... it spits out a 20% correction factor for SAE J607.
So, for 546hp corrected...... you’d be at 455hp uncorrected.

The only caveats about all of these corrections is....... they were never intended to be used for correcting more than a few %......... so at a theoretical 20%+ correction........ the accuracy is not likely 100%(it never is anyway).

 

[rumblefish360]

Jeez, with all this going on it almost seems like the B.S. card is being thrown.

 

[PRH]

Jeez, with all this going on it almost seems like the B.S. card is being thrown.

Nothing from me implies anything like that.

I merely pointed out that I saw where the graph did in fact reference what the numbers were depicting......... which is std corrected.
Using the weather data provided, it appears that correction is to the tune of 20%........ so the uncorrected, or “observed” hp numbers during that pull should have been in the area of 455hp.

 

[rumblefish360]

Pointing the finger at no one!

 

[AndyF]

Someone will have something on the dyno that makes 600hp with those heads........ then the “panic” will subside.

I actually got a little chuckle about hearing how there were conversations with TF about what might be “wrong” with the heads.

As I said already, there are several TF headed mild BB builds on Grays Facebook page that make basically the same HP/CI as the 408 did...... and no one is giving it a second thought.
Why? Because there have already been plenty of builds where the motors made way better power using the same heads.

The panic generated from this build will disappear once a more suitable build is tested with them.

From Grays:
408 - 1.075hp/ci
505 - 1.089hp/ci
508 - 1.045hp/ci

Keep in mind...... those BB builds were done well after they had already used the TF heads to make over 1.50hp/ci.
Which just highlights the fact that no one single part is going to transform a mild combo into a fire breather....... other than maybe a nitrous kit.

My 496 makes 1.23 hp/ci with a very mild hyd roller and 9.8 compression which is why I expected the 408 to do better. But, my 496 is the result of dozens of previous builds while the 408 was the first one of its type. I might have an opportunity to do another 400+ inch SB with the TF heads coming up. This next one would be for a bracket car so it would get a roller and a single plane and some more compression. Probably shoot for 600 on that build.

 

[yellow rose]

My 496 makes 1.23 hp/ci with a very mild hyd roller and 9.8 compression which is why I expected the 408 to do better. But, my 496 is the result of dozens of previous builds while the 408 was the first one of its type. I might have an opportunity to do another 400+ inch SB with the TF heads coming up. This next one would be for a bracket car so it would get a roller and a single plane and some more compression. Probably shoot for 600 on that build.

I could see 13:1 and a good induction system with the appropriate roller doing 600. But I doubt it will do it at 6k. I think 7 should be the bottom, and 7500 would be better.

 

[B3422w5]

I could see 13:1 and a good induction system with the appropriate roller doing 600. But I doubt it will do it at 6k. I think 7 should be the bottom, and 7500 would be better.

I hope to find out
I have a 418 that should come in around 12.5 to 1 with trick flows.
Figuring on something about 268@50 with 640ish lift( solid roller) 4150 style carb and the trick flow intake
Likely use the small Doug’s headers i already have.
Gonna be dissapointed if it doesnt make 600 and run low 10’s in my close to 3300 with me car.
Hoping to shift it at 6600-6800 ish
This all assuming my hip replacement next month goes good and i can get this together next offseason. Had planned on it this year actually. Might work out well that i had to put it off a season.

 

[yellow rose]

I hope to find out
I have a 418 that should come in around 12.5 to 1 with trick flows.
Figuring on something about 268@50 with 640ish lift( solid roller) 4150 style carb and the trick flow intake
Likely use the small Doug’s headers i already have.
Gonna be dissapointed if it doesnt make 600 and run low 10’s in my close to 3300 with me car.
Hoping to shift it at 6600-6800 ish
This all assuming my hip replacement next month goes good and i can get this together next offseason. Had planned on it this year actually. Might work out well that i had to put it off a season.

I would think to get that, you are going to have to do a bit of work on the heads. It will probably take a 2.05 valve and some blending and I'd think if you can get a bit more lift it would help. Much of .600 lift is difficult with OE valve gear.

 

[skrews]

I could see 13:1 and a good induction system with the appropriate roller doing 600. But I doubt it will do it at 6k. I think 7 should be the bottom, and 7500 would be better.

^^^ Agree.
I hope they make an offset intake rocker version of this head that comes in at 220ish cc with a 2.055 - 2.08 valve. Would really let a lot of these street stroker builds hit that magical 600 mark.

 

[yellow rose]

^^^ Agree.
I hope they make an offset intake rocker version of this head that comes in at 220ish cc with a 2.055 - 2.08 valve. Would really let a lot of these street stroker builds hit that magical 600 mark.

Well then you could just use a W2 head. Why in the frick Chrysler just never made an aluminum W2 blows my mind. Look at all the 23 degree Chevy junk out there still being used and developed. The W2 is miles ahead of that crap.

 

[PRH]

But I doubt it will do it at 6k.

Where did the 6K come from?

Maybe I’m just full of myself, but I can’t see it being very hard to get 600hp out of a 408/416 bracket race type build with the TF heads and a roller.

For me the “question” is going to be........ how mild of a motor can you build and still get there?

As for the offset rocker version....... IMO....... no need for those until affordable blocks are readily available.

 

[skrews]

Well then you could just use a W2 head. Why in the frick Chrysler just never made an aluminum W2 blows my mind. Look at all the 23 degree Chevy junk out there still being used and developed. The W2 is miles ahead of that crap.

INDY 360-2

Now if someone made an affordable version of that head that didn't leak water when its ported, you'd have something.

 

[yellow rose]

Where did the 6K come from?

Because it's hard to find anyone today who does much over 6k. The first 408 I did was 545 HP and was all done at 5400. It was over. And, according to all the internet wizards in 2000 (moparts was all the rage back then) we had the wrong headers, the wrong ignition and too much cam.

Went I sent the dyno sheets to Danny at Cam Motion, he begged me to either put a bigger HR in it, try solids on that roller, or just put a better solid roller in it and turn it 6500. The customer was wedded to the Internet so it never happened.

At this point, 7500 for a small block bracket engine is easy. Yet you won't find many posted on here that do that.

 

[yellow rose]

INDY 360-2

Only God knows how deep my hate for Indy runs. I know they are out there, but I hate their guts so bad I rather eat a bowl of **** than use their stuff. It is so labor intensive to fix it after you buy it it's just not worth it.

 

[pittsburghracer]

Because it's hard to find anyone today who does much over 6k. The first 408 I did was 545 HP and was all done at 5400. It was over. And, according to all the internet wizards in 2000 (moparts was all the rage back then) we had the wrong headers, the wrong ignition and too much cam.

Went I sent the dyno sheets to Danny at Cam Motion, he begged me to either put a bigger HR in it, try solids on that roller, or just put a better solid roller in it and turn it 6500. The customer was wedded to the Internet so it never happened.

At this point, 7500 for a small block bracket engine is easy. Yet you won't find many posted on here that do that.

Why shift at 7500 when you don’t have to. My car has gone 9.42 shifting at 7000 and I lowered it to 6700 this year because the engine is on its 4th race season. Looks like I may have lost .01
But it’s hard to tell with the hot humid weather we have been having this year.