Trouble Installing 18 spline A-833 through dual disc clutch assy.

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VOETOM

VOETOM

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Working with my pal Brian to install his HEMI four speed through a dual disc Mcleod assy in a Quick time bell housing. I've done lots of four speed installs but never had one fight like this. Always single discs though. Can't seem to push it in no matter how many times he lines the discs. It literally feels Locke don the shaft but it all fits fine out of the bell housing. It has a new pilot bushing and the trans goes in it fine. If we get close and use the clutch pedal for the last half inch or so, the back disc drops slightly and then it all has to come back apart.
What are we missing with this? The SOB is heavy and tough to deal with.
Thanks!
Tom
 
do you have an 18 spline alignment tool?

i will never go in without that stabbed up in there before you put pressure plate on

a real input shaft would be your best bet. if you have one of those plastic ones maybe its old and twisted a bit
 
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Comes with plastic one but my concern is there are three items that have to be exact. if the plastic one is even remotely down or up or sideways, it still lines up but the tighter fitting splines of the input shaft will not push through them and the pilot bushing.
With the trans not in the way, you cannot push on the clutch pedal to let the throwout bearing help align it all with the plastic one in as the throwout bearing pushes sideways on it and then misaligns the two discs.
 
A used 18 spline input would be better IF you had one.

The biggest issue I’ve had with multiple disc clutches (I hate them BTW but it’s not my car) is all the weight that is hanging on the line up tool.

Two discs is double the weight plus the other part adds weight too. To that end, the line up tool tends to sag down (highly technical term right there) and while the “socks on a rooster” fit of that plastic tool will allow it to come back out when it’s all bolted up, won’t let the much tighter tolerance input go back in.

And slinging that pig iron Hemi box isn’t fun doing it once. You start sticking that thing multiple times it starts sucking. Hard.

To that end, I try to preload the line up tool UP while I’m tightening the pressure plate bolts. You don’t need to force it up so hard you get a nose bleed. Just enough to overcome the sag.

I’ve fought this too and it’s the best way I’ve found to get the gear box in if you don’t have an OE input.
 
So you are saying that when the engine was on the floor, you successfully installed the trans all the way? Had my engine out of my '69 a few weeks back, trans stayed in car. Done this several times, but could not get the engine back in place. Alignment tool went in just fine. Pulled the engine back out for the 3rd time, borrowed a spare trans from my friend, it wouldn't go in on the floor. So apart for the 3rd time. From trying to install by my self, I had the angle off, though I had looked at it umpteen times. The input shaft had boogered the splines from incorrect angle. Took a 3 sided file and corrected the leading edge of the splines as good as I could, trans went right in.
 
CRUZE 418 said:
So you are saying that when the engine was on the floor, you successfully installed the trans all the way? Had my engine out of my '69 a few weeks back, trans stayed in car. Done this several times, but could not get the engine back in place. Alignment tool went in just fine. Pulled the engine back out for the 3rd time, borrowed a spare trans from my friend, it wouldn't go in on the floor. So apart for the 3rd time. From trying to install by my self, I had the angle off, though I had looked at it umpteen times. The input shaft had boogered the splines from incorrect angle. Took a 3 sided file and corrected the leading edge of the splines as good as I could, trans went right in.
Click to expand...


Yeah, I made the assumption they had checked the fit of the discs on the splines. If that wasn’t done it needs to be done first.

I got burned by that once too. It was Super Bowl Sunday and my buddy had one day, just ONE to get the couch changed out.

So I figured I’d get there early, about 1000 hours, bang it out and watch the game. No wait…that car was a 3 speed and we changed out the box to a 4 speed and changed the clutch. So it was both.

Anyway, it was a day long beeotch. We had to listen to the game on the radio. At least the Raiders won.

The upshot is we had that gear box in there at least 20 tries. I was only 16 and it was about my third clutch change and the first transmission change. So I had to swallow my pride and call my dad to see if he’d come by and help us get it in.

He said I will come over but it’s 50 bucks. I’ll like WTF??? He said “did you slide the disc on the input to make SURE it slides on??? Nope I said.

So we pull that junk back out and sure enough the disc wouldn’t slide on with a big hammer. Both the disc and the input had boogers on them.

A short time with the file and we had it back together.

I never do a clutch without sliding the disc on the input. And that was over 44 years ago.
 
it appearrs brewers does not have a steel 18 spline tool but give them a call.

if it dont slide out like butter there's not much sense in even picking up the tans
 
Yes it is HEMI four speed 18 spline. I think Brian slid the discs right on the splines. Talk to me about throwout bearings. HEMI units used different ones my 69 parts book shows. Anyone know the difference?
s
 
VOETOM said:
Yes it is HEMI four speed 18 spline. I think Brian slid the discs right on the splines. Talk to me about throwout bearings. HEMI units used different ones my 69 parts book shows. Anyone know the difference?
s
Click to expand...

I thought the only difference in TO bearings was the housing. You have a small one for the 23 spline and a bigger one for the 18 spline. AFAIK, the bearings are the same, it’s just the housing or whatever it’s called is different.
 
Looks like the length from the bearing face to the pads is 1.625 on 23 spline and 1.70 on 18 spline. Which means fork must be different which then means it will be different disc release using the stock fork. I guess adjustment of the rod can make up for this. It looks odd to me, this is with the bearing/fork all the way back touching the bell housing. When fork is back to push bearing on the fingers, it is still not centered. We checked and the pivot says A body.

IMG_1079.jpeg
 
VOETOM said:
.......Talk to me about throwout bearings. HEMI units used different ones my 69 parts book shows. Anyone know the difference?
Click to expand...
.....http://www.brewersperformance.com/products.php?cat=31
 
One of the things I do is I hook up the clucth linkage and put zero free play on the TO bearing so you can’t knock it off the clutch fork.
 
best thing i ever did was go with a hydraulic TO bearing setup. it feels so good compared to all my stock setups in the past. well worth the 600 or so cost
 
Be advised that Quicktime bellshousings have issues. I would check the transmission register runout vs. crankshaft and make sure it is true to the block. The height of the clutch fork bracket is also incprrect. Lastly, keep and eye on the bell crank bracket. They are thin and tend to fold up over time.

If everything is lined up to the crank centerline that leaves disc alignment as your culprit.
 
i made a alignment shaft for my 18 spline, clutch. i measured od of shaft and made it out of aluminum shaft, it fits in splines very good,, no splines to mess with, way easier to use, btw way that plastic alignment tool is worthless, thats why i made my own no splines. the end was turned down to fit in bearing in crank. just food for thought.
 
Thanks for all the help so far.
Dave's drawing let me cut and paste too. The B&W modified version of yours, below, shows what my photo above shows. With bearing all the way back, with no trans in place, it is way off center. With it all the way forward against the finger, it is still off and by off, I mean not centered over the fingers. I know the input shaft bearing retainer will force it to be centered but the end pads on the fork, when the bearing is against the fingers, is nowhere close to centered in the pads on the bearing.

It looks as if the fork from the pivot bracket to the bearing is too long or the pivot bracket itself is wrong although it does say "a body" on this one.

I know this will not keep the trans from being pushed in if the discs and pilot bushing are in alignment and centered but it still looks odd to me.

Jeremiah, we centered/corrected the bell housing to block alignment. Please elaborate on the height issue you mentioned.

IMG_1090 Large.jpeg
 
If you go to the Brewer's "pivot" page and "fork" page, which are currently installed?

Brewer's Performance - Mopar A833 4-Speed Transmission and Component Specialists

www.brewersperformance.com www.brewersperformance.com

Brewer's Performance - Mopar A833 4-Speed Transmission and Component Specialists

www.brewersperformance.com www.brewersperformance.com

FWIW, I've never dealt with this type of setup, so I'll stab a bit on it.
As far as the input to disc engagement, I think I'd look at the splines for possible burrs that may interfere with engagement. This is not to say add chamfers, but make sure all edges are clean. Same for the input.
Maybe try to bias the flywheel side disc upward on the alignment tool when securing the PP.

1719147900533.png
 
Just to throw this out there, I had trouble getting my 23 spline single disc unit to slip in. We blame it on the crank register type of pilot bearing. I put the alignment tool in, tightened everything up, with it still in there, but there was no way the trans was going in (I was working with the engine/trans/k-frame out of the car). Then I remembered an old tip to leave the pressure plate bolts so the disc can move around a little. Boom, went right in.
 
Uncle Bob said:
Just to throw this out there, I had trouble getting my 23 spline single disc unit to slip in. We blame it on the crank register type of pilot bearing. I put the alignment tool in, tightened everything up, with it still in there, but there was no way the trans was going in (I was working with the engine/trans/k-frame out of the car). Then I remembered an old tip to leave the pressure plate bolts so the disc can move around a little. Boom, went right in.
Click to expand...
Can't do this on the QuickTime bell housing. No window or viewing port.Has to be in and tight. It stinks.
 
The Hemi 18 spline input is on the large input bearing.
As I remember it, couldn't you just undo the front retainer bolts, remove the imput shaft, - and use it as a pilot to align the disc splines, then put it back in the trans, and install.

There's an issue with the fork.
 
Thank you all so far. We plan to borrow a real input shaft from a local pal this week to line it all up.
Best we can tell, the fork should be 12" long for an a-body and Ill try to find the pivot distance from center on the stock bell housing and compare it to the aftermarket one.
I hope to hear more from anyone about their experience with the Quick Time housing and the pivot bracket.
 
I went through this whole mess when I put the QuickTime bell on my Dart with an 18 spline input on my Jerico.
If you have the CF106 fork (which is 12.5" long) you have the wrong fork for the QuickTime fork pivot, you need the CF702 fork (10 7/8" long) to center the throwout bearing.
Plus a 1/4 to 3/8 shim and longer bolts between the pivot and the bellhousing to move the fork out far enough so the fork does not hit the bell before it fully disengages the clutch.
I had my trans in and out at least a dozen times before I got that whole mess straightened out.
Your next big hertel will be the torque shaft alignment, the Quick Time bracket for the pivot ball was not even in the same neighborhood, had to make my own.
Your going to have to brace up the starter mount on the bell to, to keep that from flexing. Other than that at least it lighter than all the other blowproof bells that are out there.
 
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