Tune up questions

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remytherat

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Here are the specs:
5.9 magnum. cam: oregon regrind 214/221*, 480/482", 110LSA. hughes spring kit. airgap intake. holley 600VS.

Currently 12 base timing and 34 total. Mopar electronic ignition, old orange box.

Car runs alright when cold, but when hot it wants to stall in drive. It also does not want to go past 4000rpm, at which point it loses power and backfires through the exhaust.

Ideas?
 
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Not a timing issue I do not believe.

Ignition failure issue or Vacuum Diaphragm linkage/
way wrong spring in it.

Perhaps a broken inner spring or two if you have dual springs.
 
I can tell you this: engine idling; if turn the dist CCW [ to advance the timing ] to about 28-30*, the engine will:
- idle faster [ making more hp ]
- idle smoother
- make more vacuum
- run cooler.

I would do this, re-adjust carb, see if it helps the stalling problem.

Backfiring could be many things: bad coil/ECU, fouled plugs, wiped lobes etc.
 
Here are the specs:
5.9 magnum. cam: oregon regrind 214/221*, 480/482", 110LSA. hughes spring kit. airgap intake. holley 600VS.

Currently 12 base timing and 34 total. Mopar electronic ignition, old orange box.

Car runs alright when cold, but when hot it wants to stall in drive. It also does not want to go past 4000rpm, at which point it loses power and backfires through the exhaust.

Ideas?

Just a FYI.
My Magnum is really close to the same build, and I run 18 degrees initial and 16 mechanical with ported vacuum adding 18 more.
I would say it runs perfect.
 
34 total seems high for a Magnum . Not that that has anything to do with your issue .
 
Running manifold vacuum advance meaning almost 30 degrees at idle. Idles very smooth. It’s only after about 45 mins of driving that it starts running weird, not wanting to idle etc.
 
here are the specs:
5.9 magnum. cam: oregon regrind 214/221*, 480/482", 110LSA. hughes spring kit. airgap intake. holley 600VS.

Currently 12 base timing and 34 total. Mopar electronic ignition, old orange box.

Car runs alright when cold, but when hot it wants to stall in drive. It also does not want to go past 4000rpm, at which point it loses power and backfires through the exhaust.

Ideas?
I run 12/34 in my hi-pressure 367 combo too, and with the VA modified to 22* on the spark-port, set to come in quick and fast; and with the Airgap and a 750DP.
IMO, timing is NOT your problem, (unless the engine is in detonation which is hard to imagine at 34* and 4000rpm).
12* is plenty enough power to idle on. Mine, with a 230*cam, will idle down to 550 @5* advance, easy enough, and still pull itself all 'round the parking lot, at 900ft elevation.
and; I doubt you have a valvespring issue. Springs don't come and go.
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>>IMO; More than likely you have a fueling issue, or overheated sparkplugs.
My first guess is a partial venting issue, and the pump is unable to pull fuel up.
Second is a hot carb boiling the gas; but on an AirGap? IDK
Third might be; LA is near sealevel. What elevation are you at when the engine dies, compared to when you started your trip?
Fourth is some combination of the above
Fifth is see note-1 below.

Note-1
But, if your secondaries are cracked, as in not fully closing; well, if you have a cam smaller than the old Mopar 292, as you do, then, I'd fix that first. What can happen if the Secondaries are cracked, is that the Primary throttle opening has to be nearly closed to keep the Idle-speed in check. When you close the primary throttles like that, then the Transfers lose signal, and may stop flowing altogether. Hence the lean-backfire out the exhaust followed by a stall.
Make sure the Secondaries are fully closed but not sticking.
Then open your primaries to make up the difference,
then reset your mixture screws to in the middle of their range, somewhere between 1/2 and 3/4 turn. If you can't get a decent idle in that adjustment window ,
then open or close the Primary throttles, to change the Transfer slot fuel delivery, until you do.
If the Idle speed gets to be too high, just retard the timing a lil.
This assumes;
the PCV is correctly plumbed to the front of the carb, and is working and
that all the air that the engine is getting,
is coming in past the Primary throttles, AND
that the fuel-level is correct, stable, and not polluted.
>If this makes your exhaust stinky, well that's a new challenge as your engine is wanting some Idle Bypass-air. This is somewhat normal , but your modest cam size, should not require it.

Note-2
When an engine, at WOT, stops revving at a particular rpm; Generally it can be traced to one of;
1) Valves not closing on time;
all or many of them. The reasons for this could be;
1) insufficient valve-spring pressure leading to lifter pump-up and valve float which is, valves not closing.,
2) could be tight guides, not enough valve lash, or could be cam-timing seriously out to lunch.
3) AFR going extremely rich;
The reasons for this could be; the choke system is stuck on, the air-intake system is failing, the float-valves arenot holding, or the exhaust system is severely restricted
4) a serious change in elevation, or
5) sabotage,

Note-3
This is seriously easy to diagnose. Just run the rpm up to the sticking point, then back off the throttle some.
a) If the engine then continues to rev past the sticking point, then:
it ain't valve springs or anything to do with valve-timing.
b) but if you can't coax the engine to rev any higher, at the reduced throttle setting and yur still in first gear, then it's gotta be fueling.

Note-4
a 600 Vsec with a a 214/221/110 cam, should run perfect at your near sealevel elevation, with the factory jetting, which IIRC was like 64 or 66 Primary mains, and about 6 numbers higher on the Secondaries...... don't be trynta run 72/80s, lol.
I suppose that if your PV diaphragm was ruptured, that could deliver gas straight into the intake; but this would be all the time, and NOT intermittent.

Note-5
If you say that you are running 12* at idle but then hook the VA up to get 30, that means you must be getting 18* from the can.
This then means that your engine is getting those 18* all the time at Part throttle. So say you are just cruizing around town at say 30mph= 2000rpm in Second gear with 3.23s. Say your mechanical advance is up to; 12*initial, plus 8* centrifugal plus 18* in the can= 38*. There's nothing inherently wrong with running 38* under this circumstance..... IF your fueling is correct!. But chances are, with a cam that small, It's already got a lot of power at that rpm, and so, the Primaries are gonna be on the bottom of the transfer slots and the mains are still shut off.
So what happens in that situation, is that the engine is running lean for extended times, and the spark plugs are prone to overheat. That's not good.
Notta chance would I (me personally) run that engine with the VA hooked directly to Manifold vacuum! Just something to think about.

Note-6
The thing is this;
yes, at 30* idle timing the engine will be smooth, and
yes with 18 extra degrees of timing at low load Part-Throttle settings, the engine will make more power, and be more responsive. I get that.
But there are better ways to make that happen, which begins with a two-stage timing curve..
And your 5.9 should have plenty of cylinder pressure, such that, with 18 extra degrees, the throttle, at low load, will always be, nearly closed and the engine running on the Transfer slots. The fuel-delivery curve on those transfers cannot easily be changed to accommodate this crappy situation.
If I'm right that you have 18* in the can, just put it on the sparkport, and readjust the T-slot sync to use the proper Mixture screw setting, and CHECK FOR OVERHEATED PLUGS, which you may have to throw away.
Finally, In terms of advertised numbers, which is what you engine sees for most of it's not-WOT life,
Your 214/221/110 cam probably has advertised numbers near
262/268/110. compared to the factory 5.9cam, which I have recorded as
250/264/110, So then, your Hughes cam is not that much bigger than the factory cam. The factory cam is pretty good for a 5.9 streeter, once you retime it away from the truck ICL of 119*, to something like, in at 106*. I mean it won't be all that fast in the quarter, but with a well-matched compression ratio, it could be a killer stump-pulling streeter....... Which I'm sure, so would be the Hughes that you have.
In closing
Well this turned into a bit of a long post and riddled with opinion, so, to satisfy the keep it brief self-appointed brevity police, I better say this;
I'm just guessing.
 
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Remy.

Congrats on using MVA to give your engine the idle timing it wants. Once again in this thread, we see the IGNORANCE creep in about idle timing. By running ~30* at idle with that cam, your engine will have the smoothest idle it can, use the least amount of fuel, run cooler, & is less likely to have an off idle stumble [ because the engine is making more HP with MVA & can carry
the increased load as you give the engine throttle ].

This engine had this cam: 197/212 @ 050; 113 LSA. Comp Ratio was 10.75:1. Pretty mild cam, right? It is how my GTO left the factory & it idled at 26*. 6* init + 20* added via MVA.
Bigger cam & lower CR, suddenly 30* at idle is not too much......
 
Won’t go above 4k rpm is the orange box.

I went through several Mopar ignition boxes, old, new, whatever. The ones that aren’t good will start to break up over 4k.

You may try a chrome box, I had better luck with those, but the quality of the Mopar ignition boxes is only getting worse.
 
Won’t go above 4k rpm is the orange box.

I went through several Mopar ignition boxes, old, new, whatever. The ones that aren’t good will start to break up over 4k.

You may try a chrome box, I had better luck with those, but the quality of the Mopar ignition boxes is only getting worse.
this is my guess.

motor is fresh, cam is an oregon regrind, timing set was checked, springs are hughes. carb is from previous motor and ran great.

electronic ign is also a new variable and was swapped at the same time.

box or coil, but coil is new. so that leaves box or possibly distributor.
 
this is my guess.

motor is fresh, cam is an oregon regrind, timing set was checked, springs are hughes. carb is from previous motor and ran great.

electronic ign is also a new variable and was swapped at the same time.

box or coil, but coil is new. so that leaves box or possibly distributor.

Could definitely be a coil issue as well, could easily be two different issues. Is it an oil bath or? The won’t run hot thing can be an electric thing, something is breaking down when it gets hot and that could be the coil insulation.

But the runs like crap over 4k no matter what is that orange box.
 
agreed that it could easily be a battle on a few different fronts.

my *guess* is something electrical heating up and breaking down or breaking contact. but it could also be a little of column A, something from column B and a little of column C thrown in for good measure.

death by 1000 cuts is always the most fun to diagnose and fix!
 
agreed that it could easily be a battle on a few different fronts.

my *guess* is something electrical heating up and breaking down or breaking contact. but it could also be a little of column A, something from column B and a little of column C thrown in for good measure.

death by 1000 cuts is always the most fun to diagnose and fix!

Yeah nothing like simultaneous issues. Orange box and coil are pretty easy to check separately though. I gave up on the Mopar electronic ignition entirely, just because of those ignition boxes. I bought several before I got one that was ok above 4,000 RPM, and even that one would throw in a few misses over 5k but that was workable on the street.

The fact that it idles great before it heats up pretty much eliminates a mechanical timing problem, so I would 100% start with swapping the box and coil. At least those are pretty plug and play.
 
Did some more testing. Runs flawlessly for the first 30-45 mins, including reving to 6000+ rpm. After about 45, starts to random miss at idle. After 1-1.5 hours it will not idle and does the backfire thing.

Will drive it for an hour and then swap out parts and report back.
 
Update: The coil was leaking oil, causing it to overheat after a while. Replaced and have had no further issues. Also playing around with ported vs. manifold vac advance and have gone with manifold for the long run. Gets me a smoother idle and around 10 degrees cooler sitting in traffic.
 
Update: The coil was leaking oil, causing it to overheat after a while. Replaced and have had no further issues. Also playing around with ported vs. manifold vac advance and have gone with manifold for the long run. Gets me a smoother idle and around 10 degrees cooler sitting in traffic.

Well that will definitely do it. Does it still act up any at higher RPM’s?
 
Runs smooth as high as I have the courage to go.

That orange box is of unknown origins but appears to be good after all.
 
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