Twin Turbo 1971 Scamp Project

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I agree. I love the slants so for me there really isn't too much of an arm twist. But Tim's Dart was beyond insane and a turbo small block might not cost much more! ;) Plus if you got an EFI Magnum starter engine you'd have PFI already. ;) All of my turbo stuff generally ends up with EFI. Nothing wrong with a blow through carb but I like laptop tweaks after the fact.

My problem is, I don't know much about the factory fuel injection that came on the factory 360 Magnums. I have a 318 Magnum in my '93 Dakota and I have never read a good word about the "beer barrel" intake manifold that rests on top of that particular configuration of injected Magnum. Everybody bad-mouths its design, and contends that it breathes very poorly. I have to assume that later versions that came om 360s were better, but, how much better? Would you choose to use that manifold/injection setup for your 350 (flywheel) horsepower build? Or, is it a design that would make it difficult to actually make 350 (flywheel) horsepower, in which case, you'd probably opt for something like an Air Gap manifold with some sort of throttle-body injector on top?

Like I said, I have scant knowledge about cost-effective fuel injection systems for these 360 Magnums.

Cost considerations are going to play a big part in this comparison, because a 350 (flywheel-horsepower) turbocharged slant six is not going to cost very much at all to build. I am thinking a stock reciprocating assembly, stock cam with some homemade 1.6:1 rocker arms (like mine,) a used Super-six 2bbl intake manifold, a Holley 500 two-barrel on top, a Pishta-design (J-Pipe) turbo mount, a Lean-Burn distributor with a locked plate, and a bone-stock head. I would definitely use an alcohol injector, but the jury is still out on what type, because a Snowperformance Boost Cooler base model is $300.00 and I think we can probably get it done with some sort of home-brewed system for about half that.

Stock converter, and a 2.76:1, 8.25" rear axle out of an Aspen/Volare.

I am opining that ten pounds of boost will give us 300 rear wheel horsepower. That would equate to about 350 flywheel horsepower, I think.

That's my best guess. But, that's all it is... a guess; what do I know??? LOL!

I realize that it will only take a cam and a set of headers, probably, (and, maybe a small increase in the compression ratio,) to get that much power out of a 360 Magnum, but there are other considerations besides just engine modifications to consider if this vehicle is going to be a useful, driveable, vehicle.

Considering cost, initially, the slant six is a throw-away engine and can be gotten for little or nothing. A 360 Magnum with a working fuel injection system is likely not going to be a "freebie." So, the disparity of initial cost must be factored into the final cost/equation.

In order to make decent mid-range torque, for decent driveability, the 9:1 compression of that Magnum engine would probably need to be increased by a little, maybe up to 10: when the necessary longer-duration cam is added, which would probably be required to get 350 flywheel hp. Milling (for increased compression) costs money, particularly in the case of a V8. which has to have the angled surfaces of the intake manifold and the bottom of the intake manifold milled, anytime the heads are milled. The slant six will require NO milling of anything, since the turbo will work well with the stock compression ratio.

A stock torque converter will work well with the /6's stock cam; the V8 MAY require a higher-stall converter, depending on the cam profile. Maybe not...


The Pishta-design turbo mount for the slant 6 can be built for probably less than $75.00. The headers for the 360 will cost more... just how much more will depend on the source. The cost of the turbo and wastegate is a matter for conjecture, as this is being written. A properly-sized turbo might be difficult to locate for this application, dunno...

No intercooler should be needed.

Turbo slant sixes have a strange behavioral facet to their performance-personality, in that they seem to like to be heavily loaded to make good power. Test have demostrated that the best quarter-mile acceleration times come with final drive ratios in the high "twos." That means that a slant six turbo car only needs one ratio to perform well at the drag strip AND on the highway.


Not so, the V8 car. That 4.56 gear that makes for great e.t.'s at the strip, will prove to be less than ideal on the highway at 70 mph. Gas mileaage and engine-wear considerations will dictate that you have two sets of gears for that 12-second puppy; a 2.76:1 Highway gear and a 4.10 or 4.56 for the streip, if you want to do much racing. That 2.76 gear will sslow you down about 3 car-lengths... or, more.

That all means that you're going to need a drop-out center-section for the frequent gear changes you'll likely be required to make. They don't give away A-Body 8.75" housings any more... plus, you'll have the added expense of setting up TWO sets of gears... not cheap.
The slant six's 8.25" will already have the gear you need, in all likelihood...

All of that needs to be considered as part and parcel of the V8 vs. /6 swap when comparing the real cost of a V8-powered car or a turbo'd slant six car.

Lots to consider beyond the basic cost of the engine...

Here is Pishta's setup
 

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Law of unintended consequences: Not having this GREAT car in your life any more will give you some free time, hopefully to work on your slant six turbo header project, maybe... :)

I'd sure like to see that.

In fact, I'd like to see a face-to-face FINANCIAL comparison of exactly what it would cost to build two similar a-bodies, one with a swapped-in small block 360 Magnum that was modified to produce 350 flywheel horsepower, complete with the appropriate drivetrain to take full advantage of that power, and an identical-power, turbocharged slant six with all the chassis mods necessary to take advantage of ITS capabilities.

I would like to see it settled, once-and-for-all, which system would yield the same power for less money.

It could be an interesting, multi-issue project, for Mopar Action or Mopar Muscle.

It would sure beat wading through all those endless, pie-in-the-sky Hemi articles they are so enamored of.

I think it would be a terrifiic "read!"!!!:blob::blob::blob:

Here we go again.....apples (N/A Magnum) to oranges (boosted /) comparison. Why not make it a fair boost to boost comparison? Because the /would get murdered, thanks to both its lack of size but mainly due to it's inferior cylinder head?
 
Why not make it a fair boost to boost comparison? Because the /would get murdered, thanks to both its lack of size but mainly due to it's inferior cylinder head?

Why not? Because there is nothing FAIR about 225 cubic inches vs, 360 cubic inches.

I think that is pretty obvious.

But the bottom line is a cost comparison, because that is what will determine which is the best, most efficient way to re-power your A-Body.
Get it?

How much is this new engine going to hurt your WALLET?

I don't know about you, but that is a very important consideration for me and my limited budget when I make the decision to build a powerplant for my newly re-powered A-Body ride.

Nobody is saying that you can make more power (or even as much) with 225 cubic inches as you can with 360... that would be stupid. But, for the same amount of MONEY, it might be possible.

THAT is my contention... apples to apples (dollars spent on each setup.)

A pretty simple comparison, I think. And, one that needs to be made, before the decision is made as to which powerplant would be best for the newly-powered A-Body. V8 or turbo six.
 
I agree with this statement. I am wanting to pick up a 61-69 Lincoln Continental 4 door and drop in a Cummins Diesel!

That will be interesting. Good luck. If I could suggest anything try to find the lightest diesel setup. I know that Cummings inline is super strong and has less parts but isn't it heavier than the Max?
 
That will be interesting. Good luck. If I could suggest anything try to find the lightest diesel setup. I know that Cummings inline is super strong and has less parts but isn't it heavier than the Max?
12v Cummins weighs about 1,000# and I believe the 4 cylinder 4BT weighs about 800#. Either way, very heavy engines.
 
Guys...update! The February, 2014 Grassroots Motorsports article is out and it's great to see a vintage Mopar in THAT book! I managed to get a better job than the last one so I didn't feel the panic of having to give the car away on EBAY to some fool. I will still tell you it's for sale but I'd love to also say I may be able to turn up the wick on it before the next guy takes delivery of the car. I appreciate all the support. Please go buy a copy of the magazine at your local bookstore.

scrapyard%20article.jpg
 
Guys...update! The February, 2014 Grassroots Motorsports article is out and it's great to see a vintage Mopar in THAT book! I managed to get a better job than the last one so I didn't feel the panic of having to give the car away on EBAY to some fool. I will still tell you it's for sale but I'd love to also say I may be able to turn up the wick on it before the next guy takes delivery of the car. I appreciate all the support. Please go buy a copy of the magazine at your local bookstore.

scrapyard%20article.jpg

Dave, great to hear from you and even greater to learn that you still have the car!!!

DON'T sell it! If you sell that car, you'll hate having done that for the rest of your life!

Do whatever you have to do to hang onto it... it will be worth it in the long run, trust me.

You just made my day...

(Can't wait to see the magazine!):cheers:
 
Guys...update! The February, 2014 Grassroots Motorsports article is out and it's great to see a vintage Mopar in THAT book! I managed to get a better job than the last one so I didn't feel the panic of having to give the car away on EBAY to some fool. I will still tell you it's for sale but I'd love to also say I may be able to turn up the wick on it before the next guy takes delivery of the car. I appreciate all the support. Please go buy a copy of the magazine at your local bookstore.

scrapyard%20article.jpg

I'm glad things turned around and you were able to keep the car! Congrats! :finga: :blob:

Did you ever get my pm? Still curious on your thoughts. :-D
 
awesome build man! i wouldnt have done it myself, but its dang cool!!! looks awesome. (yes I know this is an old thread).
 
Congrats! We should meet up sometime. I heard you've moved into the area. I've seen lots of pictures of your car at local shows.

I still live in Detroit. Jose Valle @ Kaizen Motorsports in LaHabra has custody of the Scamp at the moment. The goal for the Scamp was that after Fram, it needed to culturally build bridges for car crafters young and old. No better place than LA this year.

Hopefully we can meet up when I visit. Keep you eyes peeled for the Tremec 5 Speed Swap!

Thanks for the props guys.
 
I still live in Detroit. Jose Valle @ Kaizen Motorsports in LaHabra has custody of the Scamp at the moment. The goal for the Scamp was that after Fram, it needed to culturally build bridges for car crafters young and old. No better place than LA this year.

Hopefully we can meet up when I visit. Keep you eyes peeled for the Tremec 5 Speed Swap!

Thanks for the props guys.

Yeah, one of my coworkers who has a '67 Dart came up to me about a month ago saying he saw a crazy Dart looking thing as he was about to say what engine it had, I said, "Let me guess, Toyota 2JZ? It's a Scamp. I've seen the build on it." :D

I definitely like the idea of culturally building bridges. It allows people to think outside of the scope of the norm and makes the hobby interesting. Maybe I'll pay them a visit to look the car over after work one day. Maybe get some ideas for the Dart because engine and/or trans is next to be modified next year (or soon after) and I have so many options but don't know what to choose.

Some guy has been selling an R154 on here that could be used.
 
I know this is a old thread but superdv private message is full, just trying to find out what wheels he is running.
 
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