Upset with Degree wheel findings

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AZ-Nick

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I have never had issues like this before in the last 55 years of working on engines. I purchased a reground cam from Oregon Cams and I am pretty sure the issue is NOT with the cam but with the new Cloyes 9-keyway timing set part # 9-3503X9 street billet true roller.
I am hoping that someone can confirm that I am correct or that I did something wrong.
The cam card states the LS is 111 and the Intake CL 107, Exhaust 115.
I checked the intake CL 107 @.050 before and after with a degree wheel nine times using an indicator on the lifter and including turning the lifter upside down and every time I get the same results 103-102 when it should be 107 in a perfect world dot to dot. Yes I also checked and rechecked TDC using a piston stop often.
My cam sheet also states Duration @ .050 tappet rise of .226, should I be checking this number also to confirm?
Next question: if I retard using the crank sprocket do I only install the sprocket to the correct marked location with the PTDC and intake lobe @ +or- .050 or straight up?
Thanks

IMG_5709.jpeg
 
I always start by checking the Int / Exh cam timing at .050” tappet lift figures. This will definitely inform you what you need to do with advancing / retarding the chain set.
 
No idea where the issue is. Might be some in the cam, some in the gear set.

Adjust it so the centerline is correct, then check the exh side. Or check ex now, verify the cam is cut properly. If it comes up around 119 ex, then adjust it on intake side to 107ish.
 
I'll just add this. There ARE better timing sets on the market. Cloyes went to China years ago. That said, check it like crackedback said.
 
To get the cam closer to 107 intake c/l you would move to the -4(or R4) setting on the lower gear.

The -4 slot goes over the key, and the dot on the upper gear gets lined up with the other -4 mark on the lower gear.

Then recheck the installed position.
 
I'll add this as I fixed a number of engines that those 9 ways got messed up when installed.

People move the crank keyway to the triangle, then don't line up the tooth mark triangle with the cam gear. They roll the engine to the "o" dot. That will make a mess of things.
If you put the timing chain back on and the crank keyway isn't pointing basically inline with the #1 cylinder, STOP, don't keep going. If the keyway is at 6 oclock or most any other position, you are likely going to bend things.
 
To reinforce what was said above…….
No matter which timing position you use, when you’re putting the gears in place, the piston will always be at TDC.
The object is to move the cam in relation to the crank…….not to move the crank.
 
PRH said:
To get the cam closer to 107 intake c/l you would move to the -4(or R4) setting on the lower gear.

The -4 slot goes over the key, and the dot on the upper gear gets lined up with the other -4 mark on the lower gear.

Then recheck the installed position.
Click to expand...
This is exactually what I did earlier before I posted my question because I wasn't sure it would be correct procedure!
The result I achieved was an intake 106.5 CL, so I guess I was ok.
 
PRH said:
To get the cam closer to 107 intake c/l you would move to the -4(or R4) setting on the lower gear.

The -4 slot goes over the key, and the dot on the upper gear gets lined up with the other -4 mark on the lower gear.

Then recheck the installed position.
Click to expand...
After checking it again a couple of times to satisfy myself I used loctite Blue on the cam bolt and tightened it to torque value and once again checked it 3 times starting with setting PTDC and the final 3 sets of numbers were
.213 .214 and .2135 which gave me an average of.10675.
I think I am going to stop rechecking it.
I can’t believe how far off an expensive true roller billet timing set can be, I never had issues like this before. Thank you all again for your help and suggestions.

IMG_5714.jpeg


IMG_5713.jpeg
 
Newbomb Turk said:
I don't get the problem.

That's why they make adjustable timing sets.

Adjust it to where you want it and go.
Click to expand...
I agree. This is EXACTLY why we degree cams. It’s not uncommon to find the CL off when dot to dot nor is it very difficult to correct. I give you ( @AZ-Nick ) credit for finding the problem now and solving it.
 
Newbomb Turk said:
I don't get the problem.

That's why they make adjustable timing sets.

Adjust it to where you want it and go.
Click to expand...
I think he was just wanting more opinions so as to double and triple check himself. Nothing wrong with that.
 
Newbomb Turk said:
I don't get the problem.

That's why they make adjustable timing sets.

Adjust it to where you want it and go.
Click to expand...
The problem was that I had never really had an issue with timing sets being off so much when I installed cams years ago. The last cam change I made was approximately 25 years ago and then it was very close at dot to dot. I didn’t think companies were making parts off this much.
 
AZ-Nick said:
The problem was that I had never really had an issue with timing sets being off so much when I installed cams years ago. The last cam change I made was approximately 25 years ago and then it was very close at dot to dot. I didn’t think companies were making parts off this much.
Click to expand...


There are way more cams off more than that.

As long as you can get it where you want it, it doesn’t really matter.

But yeah, stuff is off. Lots of it.
 
you got 213* 214* and 213.5* off the wheel.

Did you do anything in the math with the intake valve opening number before TDC?

You are 12-13* short of the .050 number. Something looks off to me. If you got 214 from the wheel the ICL is 101

214/2 = 107-6 (IO BTDC) = 101

What were the numbers for the BTDC opening number? 12 or 13ish? If the BTDC number is in the 12 range the ICL is around 95.
 
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crackedback said:
you got 213* 214* and 213.5* off the wheel.

Did you do anything in the math with the intake valve opening number before TDC?

You are 12-13* short of the .050 number. Something looks off to me. If you got 214 from the wheel the ICL is 101

214/2 = 107-6 (IO BTDC) = 101

What were the numbers for the BTDC opening number? 12 or 13ish? If the BTDC number is in the 12 range the ICL is around 95.
Click to expand...
The numbers I got off the wheel were as an example,
63 and 150, add them together = 213 divided by 2 = 106.5 intake @ .050
The cam sheet says that intake @ .050 should be 107
Are you saying that I did something wrong?
 
Your math is wrong... no consideration for the BTDC opening event. Also you should be at 226 if measuring at .050, not 213. No way is the process done correct IMO. If it is it's just by luck.

Coming up short on duration - Most likely because the tappet wasn't on the cam after you went past max lift. You have to push it down in the bore lotsd of time to get it back on the cam surface.

In your case with the valve opening BTDC, here is the math. Intake Centerline = (duration ÷ 2) – IO

You need to COMPARE the numbers you see on the wheel to the values written on the cam card. In this case the intake open at 6 BTDC and the intake close at 40 ABDC. For 226* duration at .050

The problem that you have is that those numbers will move. If the intake opens at 12 btdc, it will close at 34... you still get the same TOTAL 226* but the phasing of the cam in relation to the crank is WAY off.

No way would I button it up and try to start it.
 
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crackedback said:
Your math is wrong... no consideration for the BTDC opening event. Also you should be at 226 if measuring at .050, not 213. No way is the process done correct IMO. If it is it's just by luck.

Coming up short on duration - Most likely because the tappet wasn't on the cam after you went past max lift. You have to push it down in the bore lotsd of time to get it back on the cam surface.

In your case with the valve opening BTDC, here is the math. Intake Centerline = (duration ÷ 2) – IO

You need to COMPARE the numbers you see on the wheel to the values written on the cam card. In this case the intake open at 6 BTDC and the intake close at 40 ABDC. For 226* duration at .050

The problem that you have is that those numbers will move. If the intake opens at 12 btdc, it will close at 34... you still get the same TOTAL 226* but the phasing of the cam in relation to the crank is WAY off.

No way would I button it up and try to start it.
Click to expand...
I did it exactly as what Comp Cams listed in there instructions online except for the following, I set my indicator on a lifter face, I did it on both sides of the lifter instead of the spring retainer as Comp said to use in step 5.......

Step 2: Position the #1 piston at Top Dead Center (TDC). Attach the degree wheel to the balancer or crank socket, and install the assembly on the crankshaft. The crank may be rotated from either the front or from the flywheel end. Obviously, if the engine is in the car, you must rotate from the front. Remember, the greater the leverage, the smoother the crank rotation, and the more accurately you can rotate the crankshaft. Install degree wheel and pointer, and set the pointer to zero on the degree wheel. Note: Never use the starter to turn the engine while degreeing a cam. Step 3: Rotate the crankshaft opposite the engine rotation direction about 15-20 degrees. This will lower the piston enough to permit the installation of the piston stop in the #1 spark plug hole. Rotate the crankshaft clockwise until the piston hits the stop, and record the number indicated on the degree wheel. Next, rotate the crankshaft counterclockwise until the piston hits the stop from the other direction, and again record the number on the degree wheel. Step 4: Remove the piston stop after marking the two points on the degree wheel. Rotate the crankshaft to the midpoint of the two marks (this is determined by adding the two points on the degree wheel together, then dividing by 2). This point is TDC for cylinder #1.Without rotating the crankshaft adjust the degree wheel to read 0 degrees at the pointer. You are now ready to locate the intake lobe centerline relative to TDC. If you are not absolutely sure that your zero degree mark is set at TDC, repeat this procedure. This step is critical to proper camshaft alignment. Step 5: Attach the dial indicator to the dial indicator mount. Position the dial indicator mount so the tip of the dial indicator extension/plunger will contact the retainer of the intake valve. It is important that the indicator plunger be parallel to the valve stem. Any variance in the angle of the indicator will introduce geometric errors into the lift readings. Step 6: Rotate the crankshaft clockwise until the camshaft reaches maximum intake lift. At this point, the dial indicator will begin to change direction at the point of maximum lift. At this point, set the dial to zero. Step 7: Rotate the crankshaft counterclockwise until the dial indicator reads .100”. Next, turn the engine forward in the normal direction of rotation until the dial indicator reads .050” before maximum lift. Record the degree wheel reading. Step 8: Continue to rotate the engine over in its normal direction of rotation until the indicator goes past zero to .050” on the closing side of maximum lift. Again, record the degree wheel reading. Step 9: Add the two numbers together and divide by 2. The resulting number will be the location of maximum lift of the intake lobe in relation to the crank and piston. This is the intake centerline. For example: The first degree wheel reading was 100 degrees. The second reading was 120 degrees. These two numbers (100 + 120) added together will be 220. 220 divided by 2 will equal 110. Your actual intake centerline is 110 degrees. Verify that your measured intake centerline matches that listed on your camshaft specification card.

So please tell me what I did wrong!
 
PRH said:
To get the cam closer to 107 intake c/l you would move to the -4(or R4) setting on the lower gear.

The -4 slot goes over the key, and the dot on the upper gear gets lined up with the other -4 mark on the lower gear.

Then recheck the installed position.
Click to expand...
RustyRatRod said:
Yeah. Look in the mirror. lol
Click to expand...
Newbomb Turk said:
I don't get the problem.

That's why they make adjustable timing sets.

Adjust it to where you want it and go.
Click to expand...

Please see post #24 and let me know if what I did was correct or wrong before I commit myself to a Senior Citizen Home!!!!!
 
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