Weird noise after 4 speed install

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72Duster440 said:
Hard to tell in the video, did you set the TOB free play to 0.010" to 0.015" free play, or whatever the spec is? It looks like the TOB is always in contact with the fingers in that video.
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Yes, I set the air gap to spec per the instructions. I just got off the phone with Eastside motorsports, the company who makes these TOB kits. He said the air gap spec is only for initial install, to prevent the bearing from being over extended. Once the pedal has been pushed the first time, it will always ride on the fingers and self adjust going forward.

Based on that it all makes sense to me. He said as long as I have full engagement of the clutch I am all set (which i do) I have no trouble shifting gears. What I do find interesting is that he said to remove the big spring on the pedal, it was only used for mechanical return. Even tho I have a 3 finger clutch.
 
Conflicting info... I called Dan at Brewers and he said not a good idea to run the 3 finger with the hydraulic TOB, but too late now. He said they just take so much more effort to operate, but leave the spring on, it does aid in pedal assist.

Once I figure out this issue, I'll drive it around and if it becomes too hard on me, I'll switch to a diaphragm PP.
 
plumkrazee70 said:
Conflicting info... I called Dan at Brewers and he said not a good idea to run the 3 finger with the hydraulic TOB, but too late now. He said they just take so much more effort to operate, but leave the spring on, it does aid in pedal assist.

Once I figure out this issue, I'll drive it around and if it becomes too hard on me, I'll switch to a diaphragm PP.
Click to expand...

That's what I have heard as well, to only use it with the diaphragm type, and the free play is set to account for future wear of the clutch plate so there is room for the fingers to move as it wears without pressing against the TOB and causing it to 'rub'.
 
72Duster440 said:
That's what I have heard as well, to only use it with the diaphragm type, and the free play is set to account for future wear of the clutch plate so there is room for the fingers to move as it wears without pressing against the TOB and causing it to 'rub'.
Click to expand...

I am going to start another thread to see how many folks are using the Hydraulic TOB with a 3 finger. I know I have read that a few are, the pedal effort may just be increased. I think once I get this issue figured out and I can drive the car, depending how my leg feels, I may take out the 3 finger in favor of a diaphragm clutch to aid in pedal effort.
 
It wouldn't (shouldn't) cause the noise you have, but from the video, it appears your pinion angle might be slightly off. Going with the longer driveshaft needed with the manual, did you measure the pinion angle and compare to what you had before? Might need some shims on the rear axle. It almost looks like there is a bad pinion bearing letting that yoke move a little, is there any side to side or in and out play on the yoke if you try to move it around?
 
plumkrazee70 said:
I am going to start another thread to see how many folks are using the Hydraulic TOB with a 3 finger. I know I have read that a few are, the pedal effort may just be increased. I think once I get this issue figured out and I can drive the car, depending how my leg feels, I may take out the 3 finger in favor of a diaphragm clutch to aid in pedal effort.
Click to expand...

I'll be following that one. The last two parts I need for my manual swap are the TOB and the clutch. I've had my eye on the McLeod Super Street since it's a diaphragm style to use with the TOB. I planned on going with the Apex hydraulic TOB kit, which I think is the same as your Eastside one, but I like the alignment pin and spacer setup with the McLeod one. I might piece a kit together and buy the Apex mounting bracket for it.
 
72Duster440 said:
I'll be following that one. The last two parts I need for my manual swap are the TOB and the clutch. I've had my eye on the McLeod Super Street since it's a diaphragm style to use with the TOB. I planned on going with the Apex hydraulic TOB kit, which I think is the same as your Eastside one, but I like the alignment pin and spacer setup with the McLeod one. I might piece a kit together and buy the Apex mounting bracket for it.
Click to expand...

The apex kit is the one I have, its great and the customer service at Eastside is phenomenal. They have two difference moutning setups. one with the sleeve and one that replaces the bearing retainer bolt. all depending on how much clearance you need.
 
If you are inexperienced, I would probably take the drive shaft to another shop for inspection and balance check. That would rule out the drive shaft being the problem.
 
72Duster440 said:
It wouldn't (shouldn't) cause the noise you have, but from the video, it appears your pinion angle might be slightly off. Going with the longer driveshaft needed with the manual, did you measure the pinion angle and compare to what you had before? Might need some shims on the rear axle. It almost looks like there is a bad pinion bearing letting that yoke move a little, is there any side to side or in and out play on the yoke if you try to move it around?
Click to expand...

I didn't measure anything before. I jus re measured for the driveline. I am going to remove the driveline and install a yoke, if I can find one and restest. I will also be grabbing the pinion yoke and see if I can move it.
 
The 833 takes the same 30 spline slip yoke as the 727, you should be able to use the one from your old driveshaft, assuming you didn't have a 904 to plug the back of the trans.
 
Maybe before pulling driveline you perform same test and give us some vid of the trans area. Then remove driveline and do the test again so we have a comparison. Just an idea.
 
clementine said:
Maybe before pulling driveline you perform same test and give us some vid of the trans area. Then remove driveline and do the test again so we have a comparison. Just an idea.
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I didn't video it, but I did sight down it and the tans didn't move at all. But I can certainly take another video.
 
72Duster440 said:
The 833 takes the same 30 spline slip yoke as the 727, you should be able to use the one from your old driveshaft, assuming you didn't have a 904 to plug the back of the trans.
Click to expand...

It was a 904, but I think my dad may have an extra yoke laying around.
 
I have heard that noise a few time; it sounds like excessive driveline backlash.
It could be anywhere between the clutch disc and the side gears or even loose wheels.
My guess is the cross-pin in the differential case.
or mismatch between U-joint caps and the retainers.
Here are some tests, all done with the engine off; do not skip down to the bottom, lol.
1) Put the trans in Fourth, attempt to turn the drive shaft. If your synchronizers have NOT been modified for "slick-shifting", there should be little to no movement.
2) put the trans in First gear, and same as above. In First, you are now going thru the cluster gear, introducing two more places of backlash, so you will be able to turn the driveshaft a tiny bit more.
If in either test you can move the drivshaft more than a couple of degrees, then you will have to check the slip-yoke fit and the Front U-joint. As for the U-joint there should be ZERO backlash in it. As for the yoke; almost Zero.
3) Set the parking brake. Then attempt to rotate the driveshaft again, at the rear end of it. There should be Zero backlash in the U-joint
At this point having NOT found any appreciable backlash, forward of the rear U-joint, the lash has to be inside the rear end
4) Release the Parkbrake, and put the trans in Fourth again,.
4A) If you have a working cone-type sure-grip; grab either rear wheel and see how far it rotates, and listen to the rear end. The SG locks the rear end parts all together. The remaining points of backlash are; a) the pinion to the crown, b) the side gears to the axle splines, and c) the cross-pin to the case, and d) the pinion gears.
Of these, the only ones to develop lash over the long haul are the pinion gears, which eventually start to cycle between the case and the worn side gears, AND, the cross-pin eventually "wallers" out the case saddles, especially on manual-transmission cars. These can all be fixed
4B) if you do NOT have a Suregrip then I can pretty much guarantee that the lash will be in the pinions or the cross-pin.
4C) if you have a Clutch-type Sure-Grip; this unit has four small pinions and two crosspins. I have not seen very many of those and never a worn-out one. They work by engine torque compressing the clutch packs via ramps on the pins and matching ramps in the case. With no engine torque applied, as in idling with the wheels in the air, they tend to be nearly as loose as are open diffs, so then I suppose they could sound like that, lol, altho I have never heard mine do that.
5) pinion backlash is supposed to be in the range of, .007 to .012 IIRC. There should be Zero lash vertically at the front pinion bearing; ZERO.
6) the wildcards;
An out-of-balance tire, or an out-of-round tire, or a tire with fluid inside of it, or a bent axle-shaft, or a bent wheel, or a bad driveshaft, or rusted-tight U-joints; can all shake the rear end quite a bit; But I have never encountered the shake also making a noise like this.
If you have tapered rear wheel bearings, they can clunk whenever you side-ways shake the rear of the car, or one time when you enter a turn, or switch back; but I have never heard axle end-play make that noise, and I run mine a lil loose on purpose.
 
Last edited:
plumkrazee70 said:
70 Dart was originally an auto, just swapped to a 4 speed.

Hydraulic TOB
RAM steel flywheel
RAM 10.95" 3 finger clutch and PP
Rebuilt A833

I was testing gear operation with the rear end jacked up. As soon as the clutch engaged in any gear (except N) I get this weird clanking noise. It's not consistent tho. I have a hard time figuring out where it's coming from.

Things I observed:
The TOB is kind of noisy, I can hear it spinning (maybe they are supposed to be?)

The rear end pumpkin was moving up and down when the noise happen, but not consistent with the noise. Not sure if the clank is coming from up front and transmitting down to the rear end.

I had a hard time capturing the rear end moving, but the sound is pretty clear. Here is a video.



Click to expand...

I didn't read all replies, but I would take it for a drive before deciding that there is a real problem. What a car seems to be doing with the rear end jacked is misleading/exaggerated sometimes.
 
Picking up a yoke today after work. Gonna test it with just the yoke in. I did the test that AJ suggested and I didn't find anything out of the ordinary. To be honest, I'm not sure I would be able to recognize anything off though.

Everything in the drivetrain is new/rebuilt with less than 150 miles on them before the 4 speed swap.
 
BTW
When I had the 292/292/508 Mopar cam, in my 367, it did something like that at 500/550 rpm with the wheels up, LOL.
If you have an aluminum flywheel, or a lightweight flywheel, and a big-for-street, cam, with "too much" idle-timing, then I might consider that racket kindof normal. In my case the engine was just jack-hammering the geartrain. If/when it happens, in first gear, with the idle-rpm pulled right down, then the whole car will get jumpy. And that is real annoying. To solve it, I went to a starter gear of 11/1, and I retard the timing when parading that slow to make the engine pulses less powerful. I have a dash-mounted, dial-back, timing module , with which to do that. It has a range of 15 degrees.
You will soon find out that your Manual trans will NOT like the same ignition timing curve that your Auto did.
 
AJ/FormS said:
BTW
When I had the 292/292/508 Mopar cam, in my 367, it did something like that at 500/550 rpm with the wheels up, LOL.
If you have an aluminum flywheel, or a lightweight flywheel, and a big-for-street, cam, with "too much" idle-timing, then I might consider that racket kindof normal. In my case the engine was just jack-hammering the geartrain. If/when it happens, in first gear, with the idle-rpm pulled right down, then the whole car will get jumpy. And that is real annoying. To solve it, I went to a starter gear of 11/1, and I retard the timing when parading that slow to make the engine pulses less powerful. I have a dash-mounted, dial-back, timing module , with which to do that. It has a range of 15 degrees.
You will soon find out that your Manual trans will NOT like the same ignition timing curve that your Auto did.
Click to expand...

I added aluminum heads and a new cam when I put the 4spd in. I have set to 18 deg adv at idle. Here is the cam Lunati 10200703: Voodoo Hydraulic Flat Tappet Camshaft Mopar Small Block 273-360 Lift: .494" /.513" - JEGS High Performance

Screenshot 2022-08-09 160455.png
 
Update:

Borrowed a slip yoke from a buddy. Fired it up and instantly, no sound. Put it in gear, sweet no sound. Then I could feel the trans shake, so I got out and observed the motor and it's shaking very intermittently just like before. So I think whatever is happening was traveling down the drive shaft and ending on the diff.

I don't know if it's a bad miss or what. I can't say that it did this before with the automatic, but I had such little drive time on it. It's a neutral balance 340 with the correct balancer and flywheel.

I don't know what an out of balance motor feels like, but I would think it be all the time.

What makes me.think its a miss is the header pipe temps are all over the place. I'm going to pull the plugs tomorrow along with the valve covers and see if anything is revealed. I dont hear any valve train noise.
 
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