Bye Bye Big Three?

Seems as though the auto industry bailout may go by the wayside. This is troubling for those of us that have an emotional attachment to the Big Three. it's also unnerving because of the ripple effect it may have on the rest of the economy. It';s hard for me to fathom life without one or all three of these companies, but it may actually happen.

I've been thinking about this though and I've arrived at the conclusion that the bailout isn't such a good idea. The American auto industry has been in decline for years. These guys can't get out of their own way. They're mismanaged, constantly in the red and pay their former workers way too much. Why bail out an industry that's wholly unproductive and failing because of it's own poor decisions? It's been a fact for a long time now that the big three just can not compete with foreign car makers. I think it's because their cars suck.

For those of us here, car design took a nose dive around 1972 or so, maybe 1974 if you're charitable. So that's 35 years where Detroit has rolled out crappy design after crappy design. Think of the bloated Mopars of the mid '70s or the god awful Fords. GM was no better - my parents '73 Vega wagon might have been the worst car our family ever owned. To this day, my mom will not buy an American car though every time she wants a new car I PLEAD with her to buy American.

The '80s and '90s were no better, possibly even worse. Taurus? Cirrus? Celebrity? Awful awful cars. There's a few cars from the Big Three that come to mind that were well thought-out and were good at what they did - obviously the Fox Mustangs, The Buick Grand National, The later Camaros and Firebirds, The mid -90's Impalas and the Vette from recent years. I can only think of one Chrysler product from the last 30 years that sticks out for me and that's the LX/300 platform. (Viper dosen't really count, Challenger might be too little too late) Obviously the K car and the Minivan saved the company, but that vehicle platform was derived for a single purpose - economy. Some 2.2 cars were OK I guess, but not spectacular. I've always been partial to the Ram trucks before '93 but there really isn't anything else I can think of. The Prowler to me was horrible. Think about it, there were no rear-drive cars from Chrylser for decades except the trucks and Jeeps.

Not everyone wants performance though. Let's take my mom - she likes semi-luxury touring-type sedans. Not AMG price range, but not econo box either. I asked her why not a 300 or a Caddy? Her answer always seems to be that the American cars just didn't cut it against the foreign makes. What about the import kids? Why are they driving early '90s Honda **** boxes? They all turn their noses up at anything made in America. This is not good!

If they survive into the next year, the Big Three really need to design appealing cars. They obviously need to compete with BMW, Toyota and Honda and make people want to buy their cars again. How can this be done? I think appearance may have a little to do with it. Clearly people want economic cars but they need to look good. What affordable American cars do you find appealing these days? Interiors need to improve. The one drawback of the Challenger that you seem to see in the automotive press is that the interior is sub-par. I actually thought the interior of the Cobalt SS was pretty decent. They need to increase performance - more turbo 4-cylinders. I think they also need to jettison some weight. Do you really need that navigation system, video screen or seat warmer? I've never had any such luxuries in any of my cars and quite frankly don't need them.

I really can't put my finger on exactly why people perceive foreign cars are so much better. Quality? Feel? Confidence in the car's reliability? I drove Toyota trucks for years and never had one problem with anything mechanical. I don't know about any of this really, but I just hope this crisis dosen't take out the Big Three.

Stepping off soapbox now. Let's hear your thoughts!

You need to pull your head out of your ***. If the american auto industry goes down, there won't be a ripple effect, it'll be a tsunami. How can you compare car designs. Every freakin car has looked the same as each other for 20 years. the fords look like the toyotas which look like the Gm's, etc. Its elitist jerks like yourself that bad mouth American made stuff. sure, 30 years ago the big 3 allowed their stuff to really slide. That was then this is now. Go ahead, beg for the government to let them fail, then watch the US fall into an ice age that'll take 20 years to get out of. Sell your Mopar to a real car guy, Man up . Go take your sissy Bimmer for a ride.

dusterdon said:

You need to pull your head out of your ***. If the american auto industry goes down, there won't be a ripple effect, it'll be a tsunami. How can you compare car designs. Every freakin car has looked the same as each other for 20 years. the fords look like the toyotas which look like the Gm's, etc. Its elitist jerks like yourself that bad mouth American made stuff. sure, 30 years ago the big 3 allowed their stuff to really slide. That was then this is now. Go ahead, beg for the government to let them fail, then watch the US fall into an ice age that'll take 20 years to get out of. Sell your Mopar to a real car guy, Man up . Go take your sissy Bimmer for a ride.

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Wow, that wasn't what I was expecrting, guess I should have known better. I was lamenting the fact that car design, mainly American car design has little to offer in terms of excitement these days. I'm just thinking that's why the industry is taking such a beating.

So how Don, does that make me an elitist jerk? Why makes anything about what I said sound elitist? Which cars form the last 30 years are so freaking fond of? What would you buy right now besides a truck? By you saying that every car for the last 20 years looks the same are you not AGREEING WITH ME? Car design on the whole sucks no matter what brand it is. It's depressing actually.

Traditionally, Americans have been seen as ingenious and innovative but right now, we're lagging behind and the failure of the industry proves that. I'm not begging for the government to let them fail, I'm just saying that an industry that gets money from the government needs to do better things. Of course the effect on the economy will be huge.

Just so you know, I only own American cars. I would NOT buy a foreign car. My wish is for American cars to be perceived as being better.

Wake up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? Jeez.

Well for one thing. It will force that fat of the US big three to take a look at themselves in the mirror. Really times are changing. 80-90% of the American public see the car as an appliance. Do we really need 5 mediocre appliance mfg's? No not really. Three of the 5 are not that good at it either.

We have abused and weathered the last 100 years of the great world of the automobile, but the facts are what they are. You have to ask yourself can the last 20 years of auto production be the same for the next 20. Maybe. Why do people like my son and his friends think differently about life and the automobile. The car is only the conduit. Henry Ford got his wish; "transportation for the masses". This is a cycle and like anything else. We are overweight and the fat needs to go. Change is good but most people are scared of. The industry will survive but it will be small and agile not fat and slow.

You have places around the world where that are just busting at the seems for independence. The auto industry will be there not just GM, Ford or Chrysler. The big 3 need to get off their arrogant fat asses and fix what they f'd up. Just think of the potential in mfg cars to export to China or India? That's good for another 20 years worth of work.

The reality is that we as a nation and as well as individual (myslef included) need to loss some fat the cost will be high, but the result great.

rmchrgr said:

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Just so you know, I only own American cars. I would NOT buy a foreign car. My wish is for American cars to be perceived as being better.

Wake up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? Jeez.

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There is no such thing as a "Foreign car" that term is old and gone. Sorry, but it went away long ago.

It's hard to call Toyota an import when they are built here. You can't say that about Dodge or Ford.

Maybe it's about the location of there world headquarters?

Not sure.

the buick lacrosse is a huge hit over in china. i think it actually might be best selling right now?

Michaeluser said:

There is no such thing as a "Foreign car" that term is old and gone. Sorry, but it went away long ago.

It's hard to call Toyota an import when they are built here. You can't say that about Dodge or Ford.

Maybe it's about the location of there world headquarters?

Not sure.

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True. I guess a more apt term would be foreign-owned company. Toyota etc. all have plants here that provide jobs for thousands. It just sucks that it's not American owned companies. They've beat us at our own game.

You are correct about trimming the fat. It's time for the old business practices to die. I have faith that the industry will not go away completely but it needs to change now.

My hope is that this current crisis will spur the Big Three into action to start designing cars that people can get excited about again. Not just performance either but on all fronts - economy, luxury etc.

the minvan is huge man!....as i work on them everyday.

As a employee of a american car dealer that has been in buisness for 53 years I must say times are not fun. Not only are the big 3 taking huge losses but the dealers that have supported them and sold their product good, crap, or otherwise are hurting, taking month to month losses that would close up most any other buisness. The sad part is we are not talking about loss of jobs at the corp. level. If one, two, or three of the big three hit rock bottom your talking about an amount of job losses that the economy could not handle. 1 in 10 jobs in the US stem from the US automakers, dealers, vendors, parts makers, suppliers of materials used to make the parts, etc....
The fact is that I don't want to see a bailout but I don't see where there is any other opitions. Can the goverment support 1 million new unemployed workers? Are there 1 million job to be had by those workers? It is a loose, loose no matter how you look at it.

i blame the failing US AUTO indusrty on,,1980 poor design, corporate greed,and the dealer ships cheating people either under warranty,or normal repair of unsuspectiong non car people that get taken advantage of every time they bring a car in for repair,,
the american cars are now every bit as reliable as the imports,,but you cant change the mind set of the general public that had been taken advantage of in past years,,

every where we turn these days,some one has a scam,,i blame the economy on americans that want to make the BIG AMERICAN bucks any buy the china made products,,granted right now WALMART makes it possible for some people to survive comfortably,,but buying at waly world doesnt help the US manufractures that are still in this country,,,to many people like me with too many different opinions, we all think we have the answer,but who knows,,
just my 2 cents,,,

Obviously the impact on the economy would be huge if one or all of the Big Three goes under.

I just think they key to their ultimate survival would be figuring out how to get people to perceive that American cars are better. Whenever people ask me what kind of car to buy, the first thing I tell them is to buy an American car. Then invariably say, "Why? American cars are terrible." The Big Three have lost the battle before people even set foot in a showroom. That's what needs to change.

IMO, the way to change that is to make cars people want but I'm not sure how to do that. Like I said, more turbo 4-cylinder cars is a good start, maybe make them rear-wheel drive. I mean how does Honda, Toyota, BMW do it? What makes buyers want their cars more than ones made by American companies? I'm not saying they are in fact better, but people perceive them to be. How do reverse the lack of confidence in American products?

I for one hope all three survive. I won't defend the bureaucratic mess they are in but I sure will defend the products they produce. The quality of the big three products may not quite be there compared to a Toyota or Honda but its within spitting distance and they are every bit as good as the offerings from Mazda, Subaru or Nissan and much better than anything built in Europe. How they force their dealers to interact with the customer certainly leaves a lot to be desired and is why they still can't shake the poor quality perception they earned 30 years ago.

As far as innovative design is concerned Honda and Toyota have had the most boring designs of any manufacturer since they started doing business in the US. They are the definition of an appliance. No one hates the styling of an Accord or Camry but the only people that love the styling are not car people they want an appliance that takes them from point A to B. I for one applaud Chrysler for producing cars like the 300M, Charger, Avenger, PT Cruiser, RAM, Dakota, etc., they generate emotion and that is the sign of an innovative design. Cadillac CTS, Mustang, Pontiac G6, Pontiac Solstice, Corvette, new Camaro are all great designs. There is nothing from the Toytoa or Honda that can hold a candle to these designs.

They are perceive better because the have the money to buy the media. Their cars have just as many recalls as american made vehicles but when was the last time you heard about one? Seems like every other week the media is slaming gm, ford, or chrysler for a recall which by most people perceives poor quality. just my 2 cents

well put dgc333

i guess if i can't buy from a unionized shop my new car purchases are over,i don't want any toadotas here.If they go down grab your sock's boy's.I agree with DusterDon 100%

dgc333 said:

The quality of the big three products may not quite be there compared to a Toyota or Honda but its within spitting distance

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See, that's what I'm talking about, perception. Even someone like you who defends American products does not feel the quality is as good as those from foreign-owned companies. Why is that? Is it true? If it is, then that's a big problem, no?

dgc333 said:

As far as innovative design is concerned Honda and Toyota have had the most boring designs of any manufacturer since they started doing business in the US. They are the definition of an appliance. No one hates the styling of an Accord or Camry but the only people that love the styling are not car people they want an appliance that takes them from point A to B. I for one applaud Chrysler for producing cars like the 300M, Charger, Avenger, PT Cruiser, RAM, Dakota, etc., they generate emotion and that is the sign of an innovative design. Cadillac CTS, Mustang, Pontiac G6, Pontiac Solstice, Corvette, new Camaro are all great designs. There is nothing from the Toytoa or Honda that can hold a candle to these designs.

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I agree 100%, but if that's the case, why are the Big Three in such trouble? I'd love nothing more than to see Accords, Camrys etc. GO AWAY. The American companies need to compete for these buyers more effectively or they will go away.

I'm also not sure I agree with the fact that the media is bought by foreign-owned companies to hide recalls. Perhaps the automotive press is slanted but why would they be? Most of the weekly and monthly mags are based out of Detroit. Wouldn't it be in the best interest of the Big Three to make a good impression on automotive journalists in their own backyard?

And what does buying a car from a 'unionized shop' have to do with good car design? Just saying... I'm not pro-or anti union here, so please don't get all riled up about that.

Guys, I'm not trying to start a fight here, just wanted to discuss how American car design can be made better so American companies can compete for buyers who don't care a whole lot about cars, or the A to B crowd. I'm not bad mouthing American car companies, but facts are facts. American cars are not selling and the companies are in trouble. Just wanted to hear what others thought about how the Big Three can correct this and sell more of their cars.

Maybe there aren't any answers.

One reason why all these companies are failing is that they dont make them like they used to. Second they jacked up the prices so high, expecting people to take loans out on them through the dealerships and the banks giving loans to these people that can't afford them because the consumer is way to far into debt and won't be able to make a darn payment on the car. Im not even too fond of the new cars or remakes of the classics are not that wild looking or all that stylish. unless you like a ton of plastic nonsense inside and horrible blind spots all around. You would think they would have some new style or at least bring back the old but as solid and hard running as they used to. My 68 Valiant 4dr with /6 225 came back from Long beach CA to Chicago, IL. With a bone dry differential, barely any radiator fluid in it, broken ujoints front and back, the back one had a quarter sized chunk taken out of one of the bearings and the front end not aligned to the point the front inner walls of the tires were worn down to where the wires were sticking out. I could have had a new car with the same issue break down on me not even a mile out of Long Beach. I'd rather by some solid car from way back when, when america was building real cars and not junk. And not worry about making payments and just own it.

I hope they survive. I grew up on Mopar. Mopars are different in a good way.
Think about it, lots of Americans buy boring Toyotas they don't car about styling. Toyotas are like toasters you use them and get rid of them. How many classic Japanese cars are being collected? People want a car you don't have to deal with run them into the ground and complain later. America makes cars you want to keep. Japanese make cars like condoms use it throw them away. Its all a scam I've had 2 toyotas. One my wife bought new now with 77,000 miles its a money pit. The other I bought used (what was I thinking) rotted like toilet paper. No thanks I learned my lesson.

Several people have hit on reasons why the big three are in trouble but no one has mentioned the main reason. THE UAW. I saw an interesting report this week. It went into some of the reasons why the big three are having so much trouble these days. It mentioned the perceived but not actual superiority of Japanese cars as a small factor. It mentioned the import tariff imbalances-5% on a car imported here and 20% on an American car imported into countries like Japan. It mentioned the impact of government regulation like Cafe standards and safety standards that foreign makers do not have to deal with. But the most telling was the cost of production. It costs the American manufacturers 53% more, FIFTY THREE PERCENT MORE, to produce a car than it costs a foreign manufacturer to produce a comparable model. Why? CEO compensation? Partly, but the disparity between what American CEOs and foreign CEOs are paid is not very big. Materials? No. No real difference there. The biggest disparity in cost? LABOR. That's right. The cost of maintaining the pay and benefits of union workers and former union workers is killing the American auto industry, much like it did the American steel industry. The potential government bailout is not seen so much as a bailout of the big three as it is a bailout of the UAW. Many opponents of the bailout argue that it will only serve to postpone an inevitable failure by temporarily funding un-supportable union labor costs and that it would be more beneficial to let GM, Ford, and possibly Chrysler file for bankruptcy protection or fail completely and renig on the union contracts. A pretty horrible situation and a pretty horrible choice to make. Thanks UAW. What are all those wonderful benefits and pay plans worth after they kill your employer? All the union guys will refuse to believe it and try to cite other causes but the numbers do not lie. Un-supportable union labor costs are the main cause of the potential death of the American auto industry.

2SHELBYS,

You have nailed it. The UAW has jacked the price of production of cars far from what a competative labor market would allow. That is the reason that foreign car makers have built their American plants in "right to work" states where compulsory union membership is illegal. Look into the "job bank" fiasco that the UAW foisted on the Big Three - it pays workers for not going to work. Where else but Detroit can an unskilled worker earn more than a college educated engineer? The executive pay argument is a canard. If you spread the cost of upper management out on each vehicle produced, it probably comes out to a couple of bucks.

Another thing to consider is that virtually every foreign government imposes huge taxes on gasoline. Japan must import 100% of its oil. The U.S. gas taxes are high, but nowhere near what they pay elsewhere. Gasoline is much more expensive there than it is here. Therefore, citizens of those countries need the greatest gas mileage their cars can get. Remember, the biggest selling vehicles in the U.S. prior to the recent gas price explosion were SUVs and pick-up trucks. When gas prices spiked, people once again fled to a ready supply of high gas mileage vehicles. Same thing happened twice in the 1970s.

I will agree with how the attitude towards the automobile has changed. IMO the car has become something that people take for granted SOOO badly, they have no patience for ANY type of mechanical failure! I mean for God's sake, take a step back and look at how complicated this box with 4 wheels really is! I'm 17 and I must say, nobody aside from a couple people I know give a **** about cars any more. As many have mentioned, they see it as a means to get from point A to point B, no questions asked, NO other purpose given thought. Nobody has a passion for the car anymore, whereas 40 years ago people were much more attached to their cars and far more people understood the basic workings of a car. I have many friends whom you'll ask how long it's been since they changed their oil and they'll say, "What's that?" It really makes me sick to my stomach to see the state of the people I have to grow up with. I will give them some credit though; I haven't met a single person my age who hasn't liked or shown interest in my Duster. The potential still exists, it's just that the car is no longer part of our culture.

The cars built today will not be around 30 years from now to be collected like our a-bodies. Way too much plastic and electrical things too go wrong with them. I for one will hate to see any of the big three go down.

Texas is a non union state. I work in residential plumbing new construction and make a good wage. But if I want to retire I have to have my own 401k. Makes me sick I have to pay so much for a car because someonewho works indoors doing the same job day in day out makes the same money i do and has to cry about benefits all the time. Maybe union doesnt work for them. American companies shouldnt have to carry all the baggage they do. Who,s the knuckle heads who think they have to offer all this to an employee to find one. Some people are happy to eat and have a place to sleep. Screw the union.

With out understanding the business industry :dontknow:and looking at it from my point of view
the standards where set by our government
codes and quality engineering has went to the pockets of way to many of "some" people and not to the parts for our cars we build in America,
Lets make sure the starter will only make it two year and let replacement fill them pockets even more!!:evil3:

Business is to big and and flooded with people without hart:-$ to build the best , they just want to live the best, and have more then I could ever desire :clock:
We can fulfill the social needs of who is buying a car.
Heck I really don't understand.:-k
We have the technology.

Its like :scratch:if I wanted to grow a strawberry patch and it was grown to taste good :thumbrig:and be good to you.

Then to much business of profit gets involved:banghead: and I found a way to make 3 times more strawberries for the same cost, But when you bite into it and taste it
It just ain't the same.ops:

We need word of mouth that we can do it
build a car and have a 300.000 miles to drive on the road and
get that reputation fixed :-D

2shelbys said:

Several people have hit on reasons why the big three are in trouble but no one has mentioned the main reason. THE UAW.

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You know, I actually had that in one of my posts, but I censored it because of the **** storm I thought it would create. Oh well.

They actually kind of have the industry over a barrel.

The Japanese also have a decidedly different attitude towards work than we do. Their work ethic is all about honor, ours seems to be about benefits after you retire. I think if we could find somewhere in between the two ideas we'd be in a better spot.

Still, UAW or not we need to have more inspired designs coming out of the design studios rather than trying to imitate the boring Japanese economy model. The G8 GT sedan and the new Malibu are OK. Why is the G8 GT NOT a 2 door? Drives me CRAZY.

Does anyone else like the wheels of the car pushed all the way out? What about cab-forward designs? It's all about aerodynamics these days. Everything is an aerodynamic, plastic blob and the wheels have no dish. It's depressing. I don't ever remember cars being so indistinct and uninspiring. There has to be a way to design an economical car that is actually cool. How did he WRX get so popular? It's just a shitbox Impreza with a turbo! Where does American car design fail where Japanese and German cars succeed?

I wonder if people laughed at my econobox Valiant the same way.