DionR
Well-Known Member
Nice progress, I like it all.
12:05 Garage- ’70 Duster build
- Thread starter racerjoe
- Start date
-
JBrian
Well-Known Member
Moparty 2024, Tim & my Dusters
We need to get them lined up on the drag strip this year! Some 5.7 vs. 6.1 action!
JBrian
Well-Known Member
With our tires, we'll both be pedaling running crappy 60' times!
For those following along, you have likely figured out I'm all about economical solutions. I decided not to use the factory fuel rails because they are designed for a dead head system, not return style. And they are ugly. There are some commercially available rails for $300+, but how hard could it be to make them? I sourced 3' of fuel rail extrusion for $33 and some weld on 6AN bungs for $13. So for $46 and a little bit of time, I now have custom fuel rails. The last thing to do is weld a hold down bracket on them and they are done.
JBrian
Well-Known Member
Do you need to upgrade the tank, pump, fuel line and filter?
I currently run a Tanks inc EFI tank with the "corvette" style filter/regulator, which is a dead head system. I plan to change over to the return a return style system, which will require an additional line to the tank, a new regulator and filter.
DionR
Well-Known Member
Did you mill those clearances into them, or do it by hand? Nice job!
I've never looked at the aftermarket rails that are available, but I assume they delete the clips on the top of the injectors like you did? Guessing they are more of an assembly function than a safety function.
For the bevel I used a chamfer bit on my router and for the notches I used a table saw. Cool thing about aluminum is wood working tools cut it just fine. I cleaned the cuts up with a mini air belt sander and die grinder. It took a fair bit of trail and error since the sides differ. I also didn't want to take too much off and risk putting a hole in it.
Note the small 1/8" NPT hole on one end. I'm going to put a street 90 there for a fuel pressure sensor. Again, just an effort to get ugly stuff out of the line of sight.
I will cerakote these the same color as the valve covers and coil covers, along with the intake. I'll probably get all that done within the next week or so.
I think there are some out there with and without clips.
DionR
Well-Known Member
What left besides coating those parts before you make the swap?
I need to purchase several items, such as throttle cable, AC compressor adapter fittings and AC hose to make new lines, PS pressure reducer and reservoir, coil drivers for the MS3, misc. fuel line fittings, flywheel, pilot bearing, etc.
The good news is all of these items are readily available and I'll likely start ordering some next week. I still need to pin out the 47 pin connector. I've been waiting on that for no reason other than I need to be in the right frame of mind when I sit down to do it. I don't want to be rushed or interrupted when I start doing it.
I'd really like to get this swap done in as little time as possible so I'm planning and sourcing as much as I can ahead of time.
It was a bad day in the garage. Started the car up to back it out for a wash in prep for a cruise night 30 miles away tonight and notice a very weird sound coming from the engine. It was definetly a top end sound and oil psi was good. Pulled rocker shafts and searched the valley with a bore scope and couldn't find anything. Put it all back together, lashed valves, started up and it was worse. Pulled the intake to find this.
Even though I know I have the hemi nearly ready, I was pissed and couldn't believe it. Sat on the patio, had a few beers and got over it. Everything top side is ready for it to come out. Just need to get the bottom side ready.
Even though I know I have the hemi nearly ready, I was pissed and couldn't believe it. Sat on the patio, had a few beers and got over it. Everything top side is ready for it to come out. Just need to get the bottom side ready.
DionR
Well-Known Member
Yikes! Sorry
Full speed ahead on the hemi. I truly believe the car hobby is worse than a damn ****** addiction. I can't stop thinking about what needs to be done and want to be out in the garage all day instead of working...
Got one fuel rail hold down bracket done. It's just a piece of aluminum angle whittled down to something pleasing to look at.
Also sat down for about an hour to start pinning out the main harness connector. I didn't get very far. I seem to remember my eyesight being better when I did this a while back... Sucks getting old! For reference, this is the spreadsheet I made when I originally built the EFI for the 408. I'm pinning it the exact same. Plug and play baby!
I'm hoping to get the other fuel rail bracket done and cerakote everything by the end of this weekend. Trying to be smart and prioritize the work so I'm not wasting time. I'm fighting the urge to snatch the 408 out, but there's no reason to do that yet since the hemi isn't ready.
Got one fuel rail hold down bracket done. It's just a piece of aluminum angle whittled down to something pleasing to look at.
Also sat down for about an hour to start pinning out the main harness connector. I didn't get very far. I seem to remember my eyesight being better when I did this a while back... Sucks getting old! For reference, this is the spreadsheet I made when I originally built the EFI for the 408. I'm pinning it the exact same. Plug and play baby!
I'm hoping to get the other fuel rail bracket done and cerakote everything by the end of this weekend. Trying to be smart and prioritize the work so I'm not wasting time. I'm fighting the urge to snatch the 408 out, but there's no reason to do that yet since the hemi isn't ready.
DionR
Well-Known Member
I completely understand that! Right there with you, but I am still coming off an injury so even if I'm not working I can't go out to the garage to do much. I have to be satisfied with messing with late module modules and building a bench network at my desk or laying out crazy ideas for fabricated spindles.
Very nice. Definitely pleasing to look at.
Isn't documentation nice. Good thing you don't have to reverse engineer the pinouts.
Any empty pins so you can add VVT and SRV control later?
And I agree about getting old.
Makes sense. Why have 2 motors in the way until you are ready to swing one of them into the engine bay.
4 empty spots. Not sure how many the SRV requires and honestly don't know if the MS3X can run it. I don't know what type of signal it requires and quite honestly sounds like it would be a nightmare to tune without a dyno.I completely understand that! Right there with you, but I am still coming off an injury so even if I'm not working I can't go out to the garage to do much. I have to be satisfied with messing with late module modules and building a bench network at my desk or laying out crazy ideas for fabricated spindles.
Very nice. Definitely pleasing to look at.
Isn't documentation nice. Good thing you don't have to reverse engineer the pinouts.
Any empty pins so you can add VVT and SRV control later?
And I agree about getting old.
Makes sense. Why have 2 motors in the way until you are ready to swing one of them into the engine bay.
DionR
Well-Known Member
SRV is just an RPM switched output, not sure if it is power or ground though. The OEM setup has a sense to verify open/close (I think), but not sure that is necessary. There is a power and ground as well, but those are separate from the PCM. The OEM setup activates at 4800rpm, not sure a dyno is really needed. Engine Masters did a show on the Eagle 5.7 and messed with tuning the rpm where it flipped and pretty sure it ended up being the same rpm as factory.
VVT just needs a PWM output, and supporting code. Best I can tell, version 1.3.0 from '14 was when support for VVT was added. And the solenoid is just 2 wires, power and ground.
So (in theory), only 2 pins needed to add both.
I would guess that a 6.1 intake gives up a little to the 6.4/SRV intake on the bottom end but pulls the same at the top. And I am doubting you will want more on the bottom end. So, I doubt you will ever want either VVT or SRV. Add that most aftermarket cams lock out VVT anyways so even if you did go to an Eagle later, there is a good chance VVT wouldn't be on the table anyways.
Plus SRV would require you to cut your firewall to fit it. You could run a 6.4 truck intake which has the SRV solenoid on the front, but the intake points up about 45 degrees to the passenger side so it would be kind of a weird setup in a car.
Either way, it was more a joke. My mind always goes to the "what-if", so I instantly got curious if there was room to expand. Not suggesting you actually need to add either one.
I'd image the RPM would change on the SRV based on the camshaft. But you're right, I really don't have a desire to have that functionality on this car. If I was building a cruiser with a basically stock motor, most definitely.
The voice in my head is already thinking of an upgrade to this motor and it isn't even in the car yet! Since I intend to put a Torqstorm on this thing, I'm not sure a larger displacement motor is even necessary. Given the cost of an eagle 5.7 vs. a 6.4, the eagle 5.7 is the way to go. For the same money, I think you can do an early 5.7 (super cheap), eagle heads and forged rotating assembly vs. a stock 6.4. Sure you give up having the Apache heads, but does it really matter? A ported set of eagles can flow around 340-350cfm. The stock Apache's are likely close that and can obviously be improved. I'm not searching for tenths in the quarter mile, so these things are irrelevant to me now. The supercharger should easily make 550-600whp, which will be a ton of fun.
mygasser
Well-Known Member
re the getting old sucks.... i currently use cheap reading glasses that are 1.5, 2.0 or 2.5 magnification depending on what i'm doing. on occasion i've doubled them up for greater magnification too, lol. maybe you could slip a pair of cheapies over the ones you normally use for greater clarity?
neil.
neil.
DionR
Well-Known Member
Completely agree. I like the idea of a 6.4, but I think a 5.7 can do the job just as well, unless you are looking for the last couple of 10ths. And I like smaller V8's anyways.
Personally, I think the only real drawback to a 5.7 of any vintage is the cam. They are effectively a truck engine and stop pulling at 5200 rpm or so. My '15 R/T was a blast around town, but on the highway it felt strangled when I needed to pass and just wasn't as fun at the higher rpm's. The cam is too small, much like the 5.9's. So a 5.7 with a 6.1 or 6.4 cam and a better intake and exhaust if possible and I bet it would be hard to tell what's missing compared to a stock 6.4. There are probably better cams, but I like the OEM ones because they are cheap (or used to be) and the 6.4 cam keeps the VVT functionality.
My dream build is probably a forged Eagle 5.7 with AFR 212 heads (assuming they fit a 5.7 bore). Initial build would be with an 6.2 cam and later a HC blower since the AFR heads are dual drilled. No idea what kind of power it would make, but I bet it would be enough for me.
I like the idea of VVT and SRV as it makes the motor a little more of a "best of both worlds". But with a lighter car, maybe the "best of both..." ends up being too much on one end.
My daily readers are only .75x. After this, I was thinking I need a 1.5 or 2x to see tiny stuff!!!!
I think the reason most aftermarket cam require the VVT to be locked is because you can easily cause some PtV problems if you aren't dead nuts on the tune.Completely agree. I like the idea of a 6.4, but I think a 5.7 can do the job just as well, unless you are looking for the last couple of 10ths. And I like smaller V8's anyways.
Personally, I think the only real drawback to a 5.7 of any vintage is the cam. They are effectively a truck engine and stop pulling at 5200 rpm or so. My '15 R/T was a blast around town, but on the highway it felt strangled when I needed to pass and just wasn't as fun at the higher rpm's. The cam is too small, much like the 5.9's. So a 5.7 with a 6.1 or 6.4 cam and a better intake and exhaust if possible and I bet it would be hard to tell what's missing compared to a stock 6.4. There are probably better cams, but I like the OEM ones because they are cheap (or used to be) and the 6.4 cam keeps the VVT functionality.
My dream build is probably a forged Eagle 5.7 with AFR 212 heads (assuming they fit a 5.7 bore). Initial build would be with an 6.2 cam and later a HC blower since the AFR heads are dual drilled. No idea what kind of power it would make, but I bet it would be enough for me.
I like the idea of VVT and SRV as it makes the motor a little more of a "best of both worlds". But with a lighter car, maybe the "best of both..." ends up being too much on one end.
DionR
Well-Known Member
I agree. Easier to lock it out rather than have some knucklehead blame the issue on the cam manufacturer even if it could be kept.
I see that Summit is adding cams from Brian Tooley Racing for the VVT motors, and the lower end range is using a 4 degree limiter instead of locking it out.
Hemi update!
I was able to make some decent progress over the weekend. I got the let side fuel rail bracket made up so I'm calling that small project done except for the Cerakote. Note the hidden fuel rail pressure sensor.
Also pinned out the engine harness connector. I still need to go through and ring them all out. I may recruit the wife or daughter to hold one of the meter leads to speed up that process.
I made a lifting bracket out of some scrap angle iron, which worked beautifully. The engine hangs almost perfectly level once the flywheel and bell housing are mounted. I test fit the bellhousing and checked the runout of the trans bearing register. Lucky for me it is within the .005" tolerance Tremec transmissions like.
When the bell was installed, I figured I'd check header and starter fitment to make sure everyone would play nice together. There was a very small interference on one corner of the bellhousing. Nothing a little grinding couldn't resolve.
The starter is a mile from anything hot and drops in and out without having to remove the header. This is a starter from an early 2500 truck with a G3 and manual trans. I will need to drill the threads out of the top hole. No biggie. While this was setup, I also check starter gear to flywheel ring gear. It also looks perfect. I love when things actually work. Also note the charge wireway previously mentioned. It ends nicely right by the starter and will stay secure and out the way of anything moving or hot.
Lastly, TTi says a Z-bar can be made to work with their headers with modification. Here's a photo of why that needs to be done.
Notice the tube is on a fairly large angle here just to get the arm where it needs to be. Based on my measurements, it needs to be offset by 1.25" to clear the header tube. I'm going to replicate the bracket with a dogleg in it and just remove this one and weld the new one on. Nothing special, just 1/4" thick flat bar with a hole in it.
I didn't get around to coating the intake and other pieces, mostly because it was way too windy yesterday to be painting. I also plan to coat my radiator and fan shroud at the same time. I want to make sure I gather all the pieces I want coated so I can do them all at once.
I was able to make some decent progress over the weekend. I got the let side fuel rail bracket made up so I'm calling that small project done except for the Cerakote. Note the hidden fuel rail pressure sensor.
Also pinned out the engine harness connector. I still need to go through and ring them all out. I may recruit the wife or daughter to hold one of the meter leads to speed up that process.
I made a lifting bracket out of some scrap angle iron, which worked beautifully. The engine hangs almost perfectly level once the flywheel and bell housing are mounted. I test fit the bellhousing and checked the runout of the trans bearing register. Lucky for me it is within the .005" tolerance Tremec transmissions like.
When the bell was installed, I figured I'd check header and starter fitment to make sure everyone would play nice together. There was a very small interference on one corner of the bellhousing. Nothing a little grinding couldn't resolve.
The starter is a mile from anything hot and drops in and out without having to remove the header. This is a starter from an early 2500 truck with a G3 and manual trans. I will need to drill the threads out of the top hole. No biggie. While this was setup, I also check starter gear to flywheel ring gear. It also looks perfect. I love when things actually work. Also note the charge wireway previously mentioned. It ends nicely right by the starter and will stay secure and out the way of anything moving or hot.
Lastly, TTi says a Z-bar can be made to work with their headers with modification. Here's a photo of why that needs to be done.
Notice the tube is on a fairly large angle here just to get the arm where it needs to be. Based on my measurements, it needs to be offset by 1.25" to clear the header tube. I'm going to replicate the bracket with a dogleg in it and just remove this one and weld the new one on. Nothing special, just 1/4" thick flat bar with a hole in it.
I didn't get around to coating the intake and other pieces, mostly because it was way too windy yesterday to be painting. I also plan to coat my radiator and fan shroud at the same time. I want to make sure I gather all the pieces I want coated so I can do them all at once.
-
