1965 Valiant brake woes

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Look, man ... I'm trying.
I've tried to replace the bad parts with the correct stuff and it just keeps snowballing.
I know you have to measure the offset correctly, and I know how that's done. I'm just trying to show what I can with what I have. I've followed suggestions here so far and the sh*t still ain't right. I'm trying to do it right ONE LAST TIME.

If there's something I said that's got you shaking your head, how 'bout help a guy out here?
 
Look, man ... I'm trying.
I've tried to replace the bad parts with the correct stuff and it just keeps snowballing.
I know you have to measure the offset correctly, and I know how that's done. I'm just trying to show what I can with what I have. I've followed suggestions here so far and the sh*t still ain't right. I'm trying to do it right ONE LAST TIME.

If there's something I said that's got you shaking your head, how 'bout help a guy out here?
The head shaking is about the second thread in a different forum that you started for what appears to be the same issue. What was the question again? (or was there ever a question)
 
The head shaking is about the second thread in a different forum that you started for what appears to be the same issue. What was the question again? (or was there ever a question)

5h1.gif
 
I stated in the first post why I started another thread.
To get more eyes on it. To get advice on not making the best of a bad situation, which is what the other post was about, but on which direction to go now.

- Remove the power brake stuff and proportioning valve and try to get the stock drums working? If so, what to do about a pushrod, distribution block, etc.
- Throw in the towel and ditch it all forward of the firewall and go for discs?
 

This seems like the obvious answer, but there's been so much wonky crap so far I'm afraid this will just reveal the next weak link.


One question. Are those 1/4" brake lines on there or 3/16" ? Should be 3/16".

I'm not sure. They were installed by the P.O. There are no obvious markings and measuring the outside isn't close to 1/4" or 3/16".
 
What kit did you order and what did it take to correct it?

Almost every aftermarket kit comes out of MBM Brake Systems in NC. Retailers get their logo on the box and they're drop shipped.

mbmbrakes.com


Options are limited if staying with SBP, plus I stayed with the 9"


Went with different wheels (that I don't much care for). It resolved the issue. Had I known I probably would have gone for a 4 piston caliper solution if I could have found one, or bit the bullet and gone BBP where there are a ton of options for wheels

Good luck
 
How did you purchase? Are you a dealer? Was there a significant price difference compared to, say, Pirate Jack?
You just have to research your application, call and ask questions. Google search will give a ton of results. Pirate Jack, inline Tube, Classic Industries, Summit, Jegs... Etc etc. Los of info on doing the pick and pull of a 70s disc application. Just depends on your level of commitment

. There's a bunch on here from folks who have gone through it. Retailers matter... Getting one that is responsive and ships in a timely manner.... Good customer service.

I eventually just did everything front to rear with new everything. Rebuilt the rear drums... New cylinders new lines, etc.
 
My general impressions, take them or leave them as you wish.
I despise the "cobble kits" that too many vendors sell, but I understand you're trying to make the best of a bad situation with what you have.
First, it sounds like you have a bad booster- if you can hear it inside the car, that's bad rear seals/diaphragm on your double diaphragm booster, as stated. I couldn't tell from your pictures, but what I could see makes me question whether there's even a check valve on that booster...
The pedal ratio does not change on Mopar brakes between power and manual, BUT that doesn't mean it's correct for whatever booster/master cylinder that is. The pushrod is a cobblemess, designed to directly connect the booster to the pedal. I don't even know how the booster is attached to the firewall, since there does not appear to be an adapter (standoff brackets) or reduction linkage between it and the firewall- since A body pedal assemblies have studs protruding through the firewall, that would mean the booster would need to be attached by nuts on the inside of the housing, which would mean booster disassembly would be needed to attach or remove it... Long story short, since it's bad, I'd ditch that booster entirely and not even try to replace it- that'll only get you back to where you started.
As for the master, whatever flavor that one is, you have no idea what the bore is or how much or little stroke is required to make it's compensating valve work correctly. It won't work without the booster anyway, since it's a 2 bolt master and your firewall is for a 4 bolt master. (Someone will mention the 4 to 2 bolt adapter, but that's for a 2 bolt Mopar master- the GM and Ford 2 bolt masters have a different bolt spread). I'd ditch that master cylinder, too.
Solutions? To retain your ten inch brakes (which should be perfectly adequate for your stated purpose), I would simply get a '67-'72 1" bore drum brake master and bolt it on. Under $40 at RA.
1968 DODGE DART 5.6L 340cid V8 Master Cylinder | Shop Now at RockAuto
Someone may mention using the newer aluminum 2 bolt master, but it has no residual valve for the front (helpful with drum brakes) and requires an adapter.
Since you have no proper pushrod, get the adjustable one from Dr. Diff.
Mopar '62 -'70 Adjustable Master Cylinder Push Rod
To plumb it in, all you need to do is run a brake line from the rear master cylinder port (front brakes) to a "T" fitting, and connect your two front brake lines to that. The front MC port would simply get connected to your adjustable proportioning valve, which can stay in place. Throw the existing distribution block away- it doesn't apply to a dual curcuit system anymore. Easy peasy punkin pie.
You'll need different fittings (a mopar master takes different sized brake fittings, or adapters are available) but it's all 3/16 line and bends easily by hand. With some careful measuring, you can just buy precut lengths to use and not even worry about cutting or flaring them yourself.
All in- under $200. You already rebuilt the rest of the system, why let that go to waste? All refreshed as you described, those 10" drums will be fine for what you want to do.
BTW, nice lookin' car.
 
Thank you for the thoughtful reply and helpful information.
Many have said the 10" drums should be perfectly adequate, which is why I've tried to get them working right. Your method makes sense, but so did all of the previous suggestions. I'm scared to death I'll throw another $200-300 at it and still have issues.
Sigh ... the joys of old cars!
 
And if your kit is a GM style single piston, many 14" wheels will have fitment issues

Ask how I know :rolleyes:
Correct. Even the single piston 73 and up calipers won't fit some 14s and the Kelsey Hayes early 4 piston calipers don't fit all 14s, either.
 
Thank you for the thoughtful reply and helpful information.
Many have said the 10" drums should be perfectly adequate, which is why I've tried to get them working right. Your method makes sense, but so did all of the previous suggestions. I'm scared to death I'll throw another $200-300 at it and still have issues.
Sigh ... the joys of old cars!
Well, they're still cheaper to work on than new cars, where some kid with a PhD in Computer Science plugs it into a $50,000 machine at $200 an hour with a 1 hour minimum, just to tell you that you need a new air freshener...
 
Well, they're still cheaper to work on than new cars, where some kid with a PhD in Computer Science plugs it into a $50,000 machine at $200 an hour with a 1 hour minimum, just to tell you that you need a new air freshener...
He should be able to tell that from the massive fart I blew just before he got in the car.
 
My general impressions, take them or leave them as you wish.
I despise the "cobble kits" that too many vendors sell, but I understand you're trying to make the best of a bad situation with what you have.
First, it sounds like you have a bad booster- if you can hear it inside the car, that's bad rear seals/diaphragm on your double diaphragm booster, as stated. I couldn't tell from your pictures, but what I could see makes me question whether there's even a check valve on that booster...
The pedal ratio does not change on Mopar brakes between power and manual, BUT that doesn't mean it's correct for whatever booster/master cylinder that is. The pushrod is a cobblemess, designed to directly connect the booster to the pedal. I don't even know how the booster is attached to the firewall, since there does not appear to be an adapter (standoff brackets) or reduction linkage between it and the firewall- since A body pedal assemblies have studs protruding through the firewall, that would mean the booster would need to be attached by nuts on the inside of the housing, which would mean booster disassembly would be needed to attach or remove it... Long story short, since it's bad, I'd ditch that booster entirely and not even try to replace it- that'll only get you back to where you started.
As for the master, whatever flavor that one is, you have no idea what the bore is or how much or little stroke is required to make it's compensating valve work correctly. It won't work without the booster anyway, since it's a 2 bolt master and your firewall is for a 4 bolt master. (Someone will mention the 4 to 2 bolt adapter, but that's for a 2 bolt Mopar master- the GM and Ford 2 bolt masters have a different bolt spread). I'd ditch that master cylinder, too.
Solutions? To retain your ten inch brakes (which should be perfectly adequate for your stated purpose), I would simply get a '67-'72 1" bore drum brake master and bolt it on. Under $40 at RA.
1968 DODGE DART 5.6L 340cid V8 Master Cylinder | Shop Now at RockAuto
Someone may mention using the newer aluminum 2 bolt master, but it has no residual valve for the front (helpful with drum brakes) and requires an adapter.
Since you have no proper pushrod, get the adjustable one from Dr. Diff.
Mopar '62 -'70 Adjustable Master Cylinder Push Rod
To plumb it in, all you need to do is run a brake line from the rear master cylinder port (front brakes) to a "T" fitting, and connect your two front brake lines to that. The front MC port would simply get connected to your adjustable proportioning valve, which can stay in place. Throw the existing distribution block away- it doesn't apply to a dual curcuit system anymore. Easy peasy punkin pie.
You'll need different fittings (a mopar master takes different sized brake fittings, or adapters are available) but it's all 3/16 line and bends easily by hand. With some careful measuring, you can just buy precut lengths to use and not even worry about cutting or flaring them yourself.
All in- under $200. You already rebuilt the rest of the system, why let that go to waste? All refreshed as you described, those 10" drums will be fine for what you want to do.
BTW, nice lookin' car.


Alright guys, please feel free to keep commenting, but this is the route I've decided to go.
I talked to the last shop that worked on it, and I trust his opinion. I talked to my dad, who used to be my wrenching partner (but is now well into his 80's and neither of us like crawling around on the garage floor anymore).
I'm crossing my fingers and hoping that a stock m/c, adjustable pushrod and either a distribution block or T fitting will get me back to safe, adequate, dependable braking. The car is a 6 cylinder and a cruiser.
Man, I hope I'm not throwing my money away again! I'll keep you posted.
 
Alright guys, please feel free to keep commenting, but this is the route I've decided to go.
I talked to the last shop that worked on it, and I trust his opinion. I talked to my dad, who used to be my wrenching partner (but is now well into his 80's and neither of us like crawling around on the garage floor anymore).
I'm crossing my fingers and hoping that a stock m/c, adjustable pushrod and either a distribution block or T fitting will get me back to safe, adequate, dependable braking. The car is a 6 cylinder and a cruiser.
Man, I hope I'm not throwing my money away again! I'll keep you posted.
My prediction?
You'll wonder why you didn't do it sooner!
 
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