1968 Match Race '383 Road Runner' vs 'Cutlass 350 Ram-Rod'

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EL5DEMON340 said:
The 327 cid L79 was rated at 350 horsepower at 5,800 rpm and 360 Ib-fl of torque at 3,600 rpm. The cast iron block used a forged steel crank and rods, aluminum forged pistons with 11.0:1 compression and hydraulic lifters. The L79 boasted "double hump" big valve heads (2.02inch intake and 1.6-inch exhaust) and a high-lift camshaft with .447 lift. A Holley 600 cfm carburetor mounted on a dualplane, high-rise aluminum intake manifold was part of the engine package, along with a chrome twin-snorkel air cleaner that matched the shiny valve covers and oil filler cap. Standard gearbox was the threespeed manual transmission, with a wide ratio M20 or close ratio M21 four-speed manual transmission optional. A variety of rear axle ratios were offered, with 3.31:1 gearing standard in a 12-bolt differential.

Bolted into the 3,100-pound Nova body, the L79 provided a great power-to-weight bargain that, in stock condition, resulted in 0-60 times of 7.2 seconds and quarter-mile performance at 15.1 seconds at 93 mph as tested by Car Life magazine in their May 1966 issue. With some minor tuning, headers and slicks, the L79 Nova could easily go into the high 13s.

Musclecar buyers found the L79 SS Nova to be an attractive alternative to larger, more costly performance cars. Chevrolet's records indicate 20,986 SS Novas (4,675 I-6 and 16,311 V8) were sold in 1966. Of that total, 5,481 were equipped with RPO L79, and 3,547 of them were installed in two-door SS models. The L79 wasn't limited to just the SS option; approximately 200 L79-equipped 100 series Nova two-door sedans were also produced.

Chevrolet L84 fuel injected 327
For years, the Corvette was the proving ground for leading-edge small-block V-8 development. It culminated with the L84 fuel-injected 327, available from 1962-1965. Rated at 360hp in 1962 and '63, and 375hp thereafter, the L84 was not for the casual buyer, thanks to an 11.25:1 compression ratio and solid lifter cam. The Rochester fuel injection system was also costly and cranky, but when in proper tune, turned the Corvette Sting Ray into a world-class sports car.
1968 Oldsmobile W-31 350
The 1968 W-31 "Ram Rod" Olds was essentially a factory-built race car, available to anyone who knew how to navigate a Cutlass order form. Rated at 325hp but producing closer to 360hp, the hot 350 was assembled using hand-selected parts. The cylinder heads were sent to an outside company for installation of larger valves and special valve springs, and the engines were then dyno tested to ensure promised horsepower was delivered. Once installed, the W-31 engine was hooked to a cold air induction set-up to maximize engine breathing. The W-31 option continued for a few more years, still employing the heavy-duty parts, although later editions did not receive the special hand-built attention of the 1968 versions. The '68 W-31 proved to be the hottest small-displacement Olds engine of all.
1967-69 Chevrolet 302
Although Chevrolet wasn't officially involved in racing in the late 1960s, there were still key employees inside the company who didn't want to see their cars embarrassed at the race track, and they found ways to make sure it didn't happen. The original Z/28 Camaro is the best example of this. To compete effectively against the Mustangs, Cougars and Barracudas in the SCCA's Trans Am racing series, Chevrolet needed a compact coupe that handled well and cranked out as much power as possible from the SCCA's displacement limit of 5.0 liters.

Chevy created a 302ci small-block exclusive to the Z/28 by combining a 327 block with a 283 crankshaft. The 302 was stuffed with parts aimed at racers – forged steel crankshaft and connecting rods, TRW pistons, solid-lifter cam with 0.485-inch lift, large 2.02 inch intake valves with 1.60-inch exhaust valves, a windage tray, and an 800cfm Holley four-barrel on an aluminum high-rise intake manifold. The compression ratio was a stout 11.0:1.

For a company not officially involved in racing, it all worked out remarkable well on track. Z/28s piloted by Mark Donohue won Trans Am championships in 1968 and 1969. On the street, the 302 helped establish the Z/28 as one of the most enduring nameplates in musclecar history.
1970 Chevrolet LT-1 350
Granted, the performance tricks employed to create the LT-1 350 were well-established by the time 1970 rolled around, but combined with 350 cubic inches of displacement, and dropped in the new Z/28 Camaro and the still-fresh 1970 Corvette, these tried-and-true methods resulted in one of the best small-block powerplants of all time. The LT-1 came with four-bolt main caps, a forged crankshaft and connecting rods, aluminum TRW pistons, an 11.0:1 compression ratio, solid-lifter cam, 780cfm Holley 4-barrel on a highrise aluminum intake manifold, and 2.5-inch exhaust pipes.

As with most serious performance engines, you could forget about air conditioning - it wasn't an option that first year. In 1970, the LT-1 was rated at 370hp in the Corvette, and 360hp in the Z/28 Camaro. The LT-1 continued for a couple more seasons, hobbled somewhat by lower compression, but it was still the most potent small-block Chevy of its time.
1971 Ford Boss 351
The Boss 351 was Ford's last great powerplant of the original musclecar era. Ford maximized the big-port 351 Cleveland's abilities with an 11.0:1 compression ratio, forged pop-up pistons, solid lifters and a 750cfm Autolite four-barrel carburetor. The block was a sturdy four-bolt main unit, and the engine was teamed with the necessary heavy-duty gear, such as a Traction-Lok differential, heavy-duty radiator, ram air induction and competition suspension. Magazine road tests of the time routinely recorded high 13-second ETs. Thanks to encroaching emission control regulations the Boss 351 was a one-year wonder, but what a year.
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no 327 chevy ever had 2.02 valves not even the 327 375 hp vette engines 67-9 302 and 350 lt1 only sbc with 2.02s....boss 351s were flat top piston i had one...also had 327 350 hp 67 nova 1.94 valves
 
I don't want to get off track,

But members of the 1968 Plymouth GTX and Dodge R/T 'Sales Division' were
dead against allowing any 'performance upgrade options' to the
1968 '383' Road Runner and 1968 Super Bee '383'.

They even fought to limit the Gear Options to 3.55 {tops}, in fear of having the
383/335 HP out-run the heavier 'more expensive' 440 cars.

Mopar even had their own people fighting against themselves.

One could only wish that a 1968 '383' with,
* 11.0-1 Pistons
* High-Lift/Long-Duration Hydraulic Camshaft
* Adjustable Rocker-Arms
* Aluminum Dual-Plane Intake
* Holley 780 CFM
* 3.91, 4.10 or 4.30 Gears
* Air-Induction
* Dual-Point Distributor

Was available for the 68' Road Runner or Super Bee
 
F-B,

Being fair, a 1968 '383 Road Runner' 4-Speed with 3.55 Sure-Grip, was pretty
much at best a 14.75 @ 95 MPH 'Machine'.

Mopar didn't offer 3.91, 4.10 or 4.30 Gears from the Factory on that car
in 1968, though a 'special order' could be funneled through the Regional District
Office to get you a set of 3.91 Gears.

Little known fact, in June 1968, the 'under hood air-induction' option could be
purchased for the 68' Road Runner, that few ever got.

It was a 'late-late' year added option, that the dealerships received a bulletin on.

It was a $55.80 'option cost', and only a handful of 68' Road Runners had them installed
by the factory.
 
Being fair, a 1968 '383 Road Runner' 4-Speed with 3.55 Sure-Grip, was pretty
much at best a 14.75 @ 95 MPH 'Machine'.

But man did it make a splash!!! over a thousand were ordered with the HEMI!!! sales more than doubled for 69. and its ET was very respectable for a car with its price tag that was the whole idea low price and performance!!
 
Chrysler being the smallest of the big 3, probably had the tightest budget as well.
That's what I admire about them, they seem to have done so much with so little.

Every mfg. had some neat packages & that was good for competition between them.

I didn't start driving until 1975, so I missed the Muscle car days.
But it did allow me to buy several different MoPar muscle cars in the early 80's before the prices started to rise.

The most common thing I noticed, you would rarley find a Chevrolet performance car with it's original powertrain in it.
Most big block cars had small blocks in them by the early 80's.
Pontiac's were better, but not by much.
The Olds engines seem to do better.
Fords were hit & miss, the small blocks seem to be slow & the big block stuff (390) was average on power.
I did get to ride in an original 428 Shelby Stang, could have been the tuner, but it didn't impress.
I street raced a couple of friends with a 390 GT Mustang & Boss 302 Mustang.
Cleaned their clocks with my 340 Dart Swinger.

My point is, most of the MoPar stuff I came across, still had their original powertrains in them.
So, in my opinion, the MoPar's were more durable than the rest of the other Performace manufactures.
I think that Chrysler's enginering gets a little lost when comparing it to other makes.
It seems that alot of small block chevies that are in my ET range, have to do it with aftermarket heads & rods,roller cams, lots of compression & 4-bolt mains.
I ask, where is the better mouse trap?
 
I would like to go toe to toe with you kids but i've been warned to let it go the the children can't take it,soooooooooooooooooooo I will say you'll need to get the chry history book and scan thru it...............:eek:ops::eek:ops::eek:ops::hello2::hello2::prayer::prayer::banghead::banghead::banghead::finga::finga:this....:bs::silent::silent::silent: Artie
 
I find humor in this thread.In 1977 I moved to a small western Kansas town with my folks.My Dad had bought a gas station/beer joint there.I was 17 and driving a stock 68 sunfire yellow Road Runner with the black patch on the hood.I was beating up pretty good on the local hot shots. One day this ugly,plain white Cutlass pulls up in front of the the station and an older fella[about 40] comes inside.He strikes up a conversation about my Road Runner and ask for a ride.I took him out and got on it hard several times.He seem very impressed.He ask if I would like a ride in his Cutlass.I laughed and said ok[car had no hubcaps and had mud and snow tires].When I got close to the car,I noticed a little black sticker on the front fender that said RAMROD 350 inside a V.I had been around several Olds 350's and they were dogs.He took me for a ride that I have not forgotten.That thing hauled arse and pulled hard up in the RPM's.Needless to say I didn't challenge him to a race.I never saw the car again and have not seen one since but it by far was the most impressive 350 OLDS that I was ever around.:burnout:
 
mikedevore said:
Chrysler being the smallest of the big 3, probably had the tightest budget as well.
That's what I admire about them, they seem to have done so much with so little.

Every mfg. had some neat packages & that was good for competition between them.

I didn't start driving until 1975, so I missed the Muscle car days.
But it did allow me to buy several different MoPar muscle cars in the early 80's before the prices started to rise.

The most common thing I noticed, you would rarley find a Chevrolet performance car with it's original powertrain in it.
Most big block cars had small blocks in them by the early 80's.
Pontiac's were better, but not by much.
The Olds engines seem to do better.
Fords were hit & miss, the small blocks seem to be slow & the big block stuff (390) was average on power.
I did get to ride in an original 428 Shelby Stang, could have been the tuner, but it didn't impress.
I street raced a couple of friends with a 390 GT Mustang & Boss 302 Mustang.
Cleaned their clocks with my 340 Dart Swinger.

My point is, most of the MoPar stuff I came across, still had their original powertrains in them.
So, in my opinion, the MoPar's were more durable than the rest of the other Performace manufactures.
I think that Chrysler's enginering gets a little lost when comparing it to other makes.
It seems that alot of small block chevies that are in my ET range, have to do it with aftermarket heads & rods,roller cams, lots of compression & 4-bolt mains.
I ask, where is the better mouse trap?
Click to expand...
yes the mopars came from the factory with more race ready stuff than any other like there oiling system valves they came from the factory with three angle valve jobs and the biggest was the eeeeesssssss of working on them...and to this day is why any or all use the hemi design heads..so check around for your self..don't take my word on it!!cause hell I know im dum as a hog.............Artie
 
The W31 Olds produced 325 hp same as the 350-4v in the Cutlass. Yeah, and the 340 Mopar only made 275 hp. ;-)

These were the days of playing hide and seek from the insurance companies. A lot of the makes were playing coy with hp. ratings. The W31 did make 325 hp at 5400 rpm. Take it to 5800 and it goes to 350 hp.

Chrysler did have a COPO operation of a sort. The 69 440 Darts were factory produced as ordered by Grand Spaulding. The COPO Camaros went through Nickey Chevrolet and Dana Chevrolet IIRC.
 
1968 Heads Up............{Off the Dealership Lot}

68' Road Runner, 383/335 HP, 4-Speed, 3.55 Sure-Grip...........14.75 @ 95 MPH

68' Cutlass 'Ram Rod' 350/325 HP, 4-Speed, 3.91 Limited-Slip....14.38 @ 98 MPH
 
Less than 1/2 second.

Spanking?

...and geared different.

What was the point again?
 
MR YY1,

In 1968 and 1969

Off the 'Dealership Lot'.......................nearly 4/10's.

Prepped and at the Drag Strip.............closer to 7/10's.

Artie,

I know you are the God, but the '383 Road Runner' did not strike fear into anyone.

It was more of an Advertising Gimmick,,,,,that worked.

glenmorris02.jpg
 
cudavert said:
I don't get it. The 340 had pretty much everything that that Olds motor had, plus special swoopy exhaust manifolds which the Olds didn't. I would like to see what a bone stock '71 340 (with the T-quad and a '68 manual-trans cam) would run against this Olds. Can't see how anyone wouldn't consider the early 340's a top-to-bottom comprehensive factory performance motor.

Or.....were you just trying to stir the pot? :D
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EL5DEMON340 said:
Bolted into the 3,100-pound Nova body, the L79 provided a great power-to-weight bargain that, in stock condition, resulted in 0-60 times of 7.2 seconds and quarter-mile performance at 15.1 seconds at 93 mph as tested by Car Life magazine in their May 1966 issue.
Click to expand...


Really? The 'hot' L79-powered Nova was capable of a 15.1 et at 93mph?
That's it?
Where did they test it? At Bandimere?
I ran G/Pure Stock at OCIR in early 1970 with my totally stock '69 340 Swinger, 727, 3.23 open diff on G70-14 bias-ply Goodyear Polyglas tires and my best was 14.28 at 98+ mph.
The 340 was very conservatively rated at 275 horsepower. It came from Mother Mopar with 10.5:1 compression, forged pistons w/floating pins, a forged crank and double-roller timing chain. Sure, it would have been nice to have an aluminum intake and the heads could have flowed a bit better but the valves were 2.02 intake and 1.60 exhaust and would buzz to 6000 rpm without any problem.
 
69 Cuda 440 said:
MR YY1,

In 1968 and 1969

Off the 'Dealership Lot'.......................nearly 4/10's.

Prepped and at the Drag Strip.............closer to 7/10's.

Artie,

I know you are the God, but the '383 Road Runner' did not strike fear into anyone.

It was more of an Advertising Gimmick,,,,,that worked.

glenmorris02.jpg
Click to expand...
your a funny man that has read way to many hotrod &chevy books..and Im sure you have forgotten more than I will ever know.in your drems.:prayer::prayer::prayer:eek:r did you get that off the TV the speed ch.I bet.they did a comparison on them with the RR.up in smoke ya that's were you got it.so unless you have worked or owened a deler ship back then.mybe you should cheak out the fackes or talk to someone that has owened one from new...........sir!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!..:thumblef::thumblef::thumblef::thumblef::thumblef::thumblef:....I will not try to explain anything to ya again......sorry........Artie
 
Artie,

I like you, but I bet I bored out more Mopar Engines at my fathers Machine Shop
in Jefferson Valley, New York by the time I was the Age of 15 than you have in your entire life.

Kwik-Way FN Boring Bar, then operated a Sunnen CK-10 for the final finish.

Our 68' Barracuda 340 'crushed' every '383 Mopar' we ever raced against in our class.

* Dover Drag Strip
* Connecticut Dragway
* New York National Speedway {AHRA}
* Lebanon Valley
* Maple Grove
* Island Dragstrip
* ATCO
* Englishtown {Madison Township}
* Orange Dragstrip

Artie, you know better than that. No 1968 or 1969 '383 Road Runner or Super Bee' was
doing anything in NHRA Stock Class {1968 = E/S} and (1969 = F/S} and {1970/1971 = G/S}
back then........


And they were 'disasters' in Super/Stock {SS/I} too.

What were you doing at Age 15............
 
Why is the 383 such a stepchild.
It seemed that if you were replacing the engine in your Road Runner back in the day, most everyone put a 440 in it.
Why is the 383 overlooked as a performance build-up by most. Cubic inches?
I have been a small block guy for the most part, but have built a few 440's for customers & even ran one in my S/ST Duster.
The 400 (block) is more popular than the 383.
I do have a friend that runs a SuperStock Cuda with a 383, he told me that it dynoed @ 750HP.
I know thats a SS engine, but that seems like good numbers to me.
 
69 Cuda 440 said:
Artie,

I like you, but I bet I bored out more Mopar Engines at my fathers Machine Shop
in Jefferson Valley, New York by the time I was the Age of 15 than you have in your entire life.

Kwik-Way FN Boring Bar.

Then operated a Sunnen CK-10 for the final finish.

Our 68' Barracuda 340 'crushed' every 383 we ever raced against.
* Dover Drag Strip
* Connecticut Dragway
* New York National Speedway
* Lebanon Valley
* Maple Grove
* Island Dragstrip
* ATCO
* Englishtown {Madison Township}
* Orange Dragstrip



What were you doing at Age 15............
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well after vietnam I came home and ordered my first new car off the showroom floor it was a 64 ply race only car that you could put your fingers threw any were and break the glass like a potato chip.that was in 64 and I was wearing out boring bars long after that I'm sure you have seen them in a museum sum were and you can check that out I ran s/s car#797 AND WE RAN EVERY TRACK IN THE COUNTRY back then and one indy too many times to remember after dan dvorak staten me out and I'm sure you have heard of him unless you've been under a rock most of your life.ya your write I never even heard of heeeem a ck10 what the hell is that something ya eat!!!???
speaking of eating the next time I come down to the jlb Barn for a stake where I met every racer that raced back then and helped wash john forces kids ***,s ill call ya and buy ya a stake hell I will even pick ya up in my hemi car that won't hook on the street..hell I'll even let you drive so you know i'm not fakin it...................ill be :silent::silent::silent::silent:now and go back to sleep:hello2::hello2::hello2::violent1::violent1::violent1::finga:me..........................thanks for reminding me how dum I realy am............................Artie
 
Ok, Ok! 69 CUDA 440 post a 383 RR 3.55 goes at best 14.75! I had a 383 commando in a '68 Fury III, auto trans go 14.77. Stock exhaust manifolds, cam, converter, ignition, yes, lets just say she was stock. Just swapped out the factory gears with 3.55! This car is heavier, cuts more wind, taller tires, most factory options. Just so sad people undersale the performance of mopars, even those that love 'em. 1/4 mile times are so tarnished from the factory with poly tires. No traction, no good E.T.'s.
 
Oh, by the way, it's not much of a secret that the horsepower ratings were fudge and not all that accurate, just a guide line. Example? '69 x head 340 was rated at 275 hp. '69 318 2bbl was rated at 230 hp. If you believe the great flowing heads, better flowing exhaust manifold, factory dual exhaust, 4bbl carb, much hotter cam, better compression and bigger bore could only produce a 45 horsepower difference, then I own lakefront property on the moon I will sell you cheap...
 
I’m looking for prices in this thread. Did I miss them?
Maybe someone wants to look that up.
I'm just guessing that the Cutlass was more.
Gotta pay for that Body By Fisher.
And remember a hundred dollars was worth something back then.
Regardless, even it the price was even.
What I’m getting from reading here is that a comparison is being made between a “hand built” racing engined car, of which only a few were made and a large production model car with a stock engine.
Except for a few bolt on/in items to the 383, the Road Runner wasn’t a “ringer”.
I’ll stick with the RR just because it is way cooler to begin with.
Nener nener.
 
Honest Observation,

In 1968 and 1969,

Set up 383 Road Runners and Super Bee's were running at best 13.25's in
the {10.00 - 10.49 Wt/Hp} Stock Class.
* 1968 = E/S or E/SA

1968 National Records
* E/S.......12.78
* E/SA.....12.79

Never saw one get into the 12.90's back then, and nobody else did either.

Look at all the older National Dragster Publications, and Magazines.

You won't see one 383 Road Runner or 383 Super Bee with high marks.

They were good medium-sized body 'no frill' lighter weight Street Performers
that were durable

No matter what Artie says.

Artie what Boring Bars did you operate.........???
 
have ya ever heard of blue printing.cuse that was all you could do to them.unless you had a chevy or a fraud.they would run our ss springs to bet us..check those figures..and as far as boring bars black & decker snap on had the blue point u that they only made chisels didn't ya.....I forget what mac cald theres even craftsman made them...all and so did sunnen & suie manufacturing..................soooooooooooooo theeeeeeeee mister smarty pants..........................thanks for the memories.............Artie :prayer::prayer::prayer::hello2::hello2:OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO great one and I'll take my steak medium well hell you can even send it to me uuuuuuuuuuuuuuu mmmmmmmmmmmmmm good!!!!!!!!!!!!!!i'll be waiting
 
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