If you trust your machinist, I’d show it to him the block and the pistons as well to check the ring groove size.
3.910 + a few lines
- Thread starter Princess Valiant
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dirty white boy
50 yr old Juvenal delinquent
if you dont trust your machinist, you should find one you do trust!
What hone are you using, and what grit stones? How are you setting your dial bore gage?
I could never get snap gages to work to any close tolerance. I got rid of mine a long time ago.
I would not build an engine without them. That is how I would pick a machine shop. If you do not hone with a torque plate and the mains torqued there will be slight distortion of the cylinder walls when everything is torqued during assy. You are leaving power on the table, and for what price, $50? They are so important to me I have my own plates for almost every Mopar engine except a slant six, even early Hemis. Do you need to use them, no, a lot of people rebuild engines and they run fine without the extra work.
Now, I read that as the factory bore being between 3.910 and 3.912 (factory tolerance) with max .005 wear before a re-bore is necessary. That would make 3.917 the max O/S before the re-bore is required.
I would not hesitate to run pistons with .005 clearance for what she wants to build.
Demonic
Well-Known Member
I think it is fine. I would spend the time and find a good honing oil - not mineral spirits - and hone the rest of the 8 and call it good. Wash the living crap out of it with Dawn or some other duck friendly soap and check all the oil passages, plugs, etc. Chase all the tapped holes and WD-40 or a similar anti-flash rust chemical that's compatible.
ok, got it straight based on 3.910
who would have thought a few thousandths of an inch could cost a few hundred dollars LOL
who would have thought a few thousandths of an inch could cost a few hundred dollars LOL
Inertia
Well-Known Member
You need to ream the ridge, get rid of it, that will/can cause issues with a new square ring smacking into a coved wall/ridge.
Lotta failures caused by that, and carboned up ring grooves.
I would re-ring that in a heartbeat, as I have many others.
Ring grooves need to be cleaned out, lands checked, stone hone to "fair"/straighten the cyl walls.
I make a "shoe" outta pieces of "scotch-bright" pads to fit over the stones for final finish, especially with moly rings.
You can see by the ridge reamer, it's done dozen and dozens of engines since I bought it new in the 70's.
It wouldn't have been used often, if re-rung engines didn't work out, customers wouldn't permit it, nor would my pride .
I serviced many of these vehicles for years/decade, and would have been aware of any failures, there were a very few, that we expected.
Fact .
Lotta failures caused by that, and carboned up ring grooves.
I would re-ring that in a heartbeat, as I have many others.
Ring grooves need to be cleaned out, lands checked, stone hone to "fair"/straighten the cyl walls.
I make a "shoe" outta pieces of "scotch-bright" pads to fit over the stones for final finish, especially with moly rings.
You can see by the ridge reamer, it's done dozen and dozens of engines since I bought it new in the 70's.
It wouldn't have been used often, if re-rung engines didn't work out, customers wouldn't permit it, nor would my pride .
I serviced many of these vehicles for years/decade, and would have been aware of any failures, there were a very few, that we expected.
Fact .
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I used a Sunnen, hone and they said to use Crisco shortening as lube. I used it on the finer stones and it works perfect. Also, you don't need to hone all the "wear" out. When the stones just start to "scratch" the lowest points, you can stop honing.
You forgot to knurl the piston skirts. Otherwise it would still be running today.Many moons ago i had one very similar to that and talked myself into a cheap cleanup with a larger then normal hone job, ring spacers on the wore out cast slugs with cut down oversized rings. That along with knurled valve guides and a cam upgrade gave me a pretty hot running engine........for about 500 miles. lol.
I surely learned my lesson on that one.
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I have no idea if pistons are available, but with a bore that clean, I would strive to minimize the oversize to +0.010 or +0.020. This preserved metal for future engine overbores. I did +0.020 on two 340's and was very pleased with the results.
Dale Davies
Well-Known Member
Why would you run right to +.030" when it appears the wear at the top of the bore where the top ring stops is just 0.0013"?
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Inertia
Well-Known Member
Our business was the warranty depot for Western Automotive Rebuilders outta Winnipeg.
They also supplied engines for Sears, who chose us to replace the engines for them, insteada their own shops, cuz we were quick.
Talking to the owners dropping off their vehicles, I twigged on the fact a lotta these folks had done, or paid to have a re-ring, bearing shell job that didn't seem to work .
When the light bulb came on, I started collecting the 271 h/p fords, Z-28, or small journal chev, no bloody 340s however.
The new motors came without tin, -oil pans, intakes, valve covers, all that stuff had to be cleaned and transfered.
I started taking these "re-rung" home builds apart, finding broken rings, rings stuck solid in the grooves, the grooves not cleaned to their required depth, so the rings never had the space to compress into the groove, they just got pounded into the hole, rings dragging all the way, wiping out cyl walls.
Folks lined up the ring grooves all pretty, on the thrust wall, - oil rings with scrapers on one side of oil ring spacer.
Oil rings too long, butting ends on install, never mind hot.
I sincerely believe and have witnessed what a re-ring done without the slightest idea of what they were doing, and when the job was unsuccessful, well OVER FENDER OVERHAULS DONT WORK .
I knew after the first coupla mentored overhauls exactly all the things I did wrong my first times after - "I read a book".
I ended up with quite a few choice engines free after a "failed overhaul". They had all new stuff inside, just needed to be assembled properly.
I am in no way saying these daily driver overhauls are going to give racecar performance. These are daily driver cars, with regular people who own cars that required valve-grinds at 60 - 80k miles, and re-ringing at 100 - 120ish k.
This job was done millions of times across the nation, and the operation is covered in the Factory Service Manual.
Are these engines equal to a machine shop rebuilt engine, - I certainly hope not ! !
Max horsepower - big bucks, - or daily driver getting groceries, min$.
On a side note, it wasn't uncommon to get 250k miles outta a slant6 taxi, re-rung 3 times with bearing shells, and 20/50 oil .
Note for installing rings - after checking adequate ring gap on ALL rings, install the ring with the gaps at the pin -, 180 degrees apart.
(The second rings gap at one end of the wrist pin, the top rings gap at the opposite end of the wrist pin).
This puts ring gaps away from a thrust wall/surface, avoiding potential damage.
Oil ring scraper ends about 1 inch either side of the expander end, again favoring pin (low thrust)area.
Cheers.
They also supplied engines for Sears, who chose us to replace the engines for them, insteada their own shops, cuz we were quick.
Talking to the owners dropping off their vehicles, I twigged on the fact a lotta these folks had done, or paid to have a re-ring, bearing shell job that didn't seem to work .
When the light bulb came on, I started collecting the 271 h/p fords, Z-28, or small journal chev, no bloody 340s however.
The new motors came without tin, -oil pans, intakes, valve covers, all that stuff had to be cleaned and transfered.
I started taking these "re-rung" home builds apart, finding broken rings, rings stuck solid in the grooves, the grooves not cleaned to their required depth, so the rings never had the space to compress into the groove, they just got pounded into the hole, rings dragging all the way, wiping out cyl walls.
Folks lined up the ring grooves all pretty, on the thrust wall, - oil rings with scrapers on one side of oil ring spacer.
Oil rings too long, butting ends on install, never mind hot.
I sincerely believe and have witnessed what a re-ring done without the slightest idea of what they were doing, and when the job was unsuccessful, well OVER FENDER OVERHAULS DONT WORK .
I knew after the first coupla mentored overhauls exactly all the things I did wrong my first times after - "I read a book".
I ended up with quite a few choice engines free after a "failed overhaul". They had all new stuff inside, just needed to be assembled properly.
I am in no way saying these daily driver overhauls are going to give racecar performance. These are daily driver cars, with regular people who own cars that required valve-grinds at 60 - 80k miles, and re-ringing at 100 - 120ish k.
This job was done millions of times across the nation, and the operation is covered in the Factory Service Manual.
Are these engines equal to a machine shop rebuilt engine, - I certainly hope not ! !
Max horsepower - big bucks, - or daily driver getting groceries, min$.
On a side note, it wasn't uncommon to get 250k miles outta a slant6 taxi, re-rung 3 times with bearing shells, and 20/50 oil .
Note for installing rings - after checking adequate ring gap on ALL rings, install the ring with the gaps at the pin -, 180 degrees apart.
(The second rings gap at one end of the wrist pin, the top rings gap at the opposite end of the wrist pin).
This puts ring gaps away from a thrust wall/surface, avoiding potential damage.
Oil ring scraper ends about 1 inch either side of the expander end, again favoring pin (low thrust)area.
Cheers.
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Dale Davies
Well-Known Member
I had warranty issues with a few WAR engines. Pull them out and send them back to be checked. Get them back stating no problems found but still knocking on a rod or main or burning oil. That is when I pulled them apart and found cranks ground 0.005" to 0.008" undersize. So the clearances were way too much. The Ford dealer had found the same problem and we decided not to use WAR rebuilt any more.
Had problems with the engine machine shop in Yorkton also, so ended up taking dismantled engines to either Saskatoon or Regina to get machined. The Ford dealer could do valves and guides.
I do agree there are many wannabe mechanics with just enough knowledge to be dangerous. Like brake shoe leading and trailing shoes installed in the wrong positions or both leading on one side and trailing on the other.
Bubblegum
Active Member
With 280 D 474 L cam 4 speed and 373 rear gears in my Demon can I use 1 7/8" TTI step headers?
OldmanRick
Well-Known Member
Mainly not knowing how well the factory bore was done and if there was any taper, and because it's a 318 remaining stock, i'd personally rather do a full cleanup and get 70/100k out of it knowing that's the last rebuild i would do on that engine.
Inertia
Well-Known Member
WAR had their fair share of issues, big block Ford balance issues, sm block Ford valve guide issues, but pretty good really, - but hell, I had a coupla Target master new crate engines with issues . lol
OldmanRick
Well-Known Member
About 45yrs ago i managed a A/C Delco warehouse in Maryland and got great prices on Target engines. I installed a few for people over a couple years without issue, but one 350 was for a show car Monte Carlo that had to be chromed out so before i installed the new oil pan i checked the rod bolts and found 3 hand tight. This was back when they were painted blue and iirc were assembled in Mexico. Needless to say i stopped promoting them and never used another.
Did you get that 318 together yet? Do you have one of these?
That's nothing. One of my friends, Chuck, always wanted an LT1 engine. He saved up and bought a new short block from Chevrolet. Came with a missing upper main bearing. Luckily, I was crazy enough to check everything.
OldmanRick
Well-Known Member
Yikes. Glad you were there for that one. They were great engines. My bud with a Duster bought a 65' 327 Vette with 4.11's and bought a full crate LT1 and that car went 12.40's at 110 with nothing more then side pipe headers and slicks.
This was a real dog. Chuck insisted on using the nylon tooth timing chain and had his uncle do a poor valve job on the angle plug heads I had equalized the chambers on. Then he ran a stock Quadra-Jet and intake with an OEM HEI distributor that quit firing about 4,500 rpm. What a shame. Had it in a 2nd gen Camaro 4 speed with highway gears. Just a bad combination. I heard it run a few years later, valve job was shot, so sad. My 273 Would have cleaned his clock. I heard he gave it to a nephew I think.
OldmanRick
Well-Known Member
I agree, that combo just wasn't meant to be. We could have some fun talking the old school stuff, but i don't want to step on Rani's thread. Maybe another time. 
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