69 340 problems

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63dartman said:
You can't time the distributor if it's 180 out because it ain't going to run. You line up the marks with both gears at the 12 oclock position and #1 at TDC. That puts your valves in the correct relationship with the pistons to open and close at the right times.(compression and exhaust stroke). The timing gear has a straight slot in it so you can drop the distributor in pointing at #1 plug wire hole.

(or turn it around and point it at #6, this is wrong) The way he has his timing gears set in the picture he should have dropped his distributor in pointing at the #6 plug wire.

Once you have all that correct then you can button it up and continue to advance or retard the timing off the cover marks and balancer.
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On all the Mopars that I know of ,the cam gear indicator should point to 6 o'clock and the crank gear to 12 o"clock when installing the timing chain. ????? What am I missing here? It appears George set up the chain correctly.
 
I don`t think George installed the distributor in that position. There`s a post a couple pages back that says he rotated the dampener to TDC on the compression stroke of #1 (both valves closed) and installed the distributor.
 
it doesn't matter if he rotated the damper to tdc on #1 his cam would be set to tdc on #6 with the timing marks set that way. that's why I said he should have dropped it in 180 out with the marks lined up like that. If he was just watching the valves and looking at the timing mark on the balancer then his #1 piston was not at TDC
 
Every timing chain I`ve ever installed went on with marks in a 6 and 12 position. The distributor always went in later after the timing cover and dampener were installed. The crank rotates twice for each one turn of the cam ,so if the cam gear is set up at 6 o'clock one rotation of the crank would put the cam at 12 o'clock.
 
Your right you can rotate the crank one revolution and the marks will be at 12 and 12. Did george do that? That's why I am asking. I've never put my gears on the way you say. I always line it up at 12 and 12 drop in the distributor right there so I don't get mixed up later.
 
63dartman said:
it doesn't matter if he rotated the damper to tdc on #1 his cam would be set to tdc on #6 with the timing marks set that way. that's why I said he should have dropped it in 180 out with the marks lined up like that. If he was just watching the valves and looking at the timing mark on the balancer then his #1 piston was not at TDC
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I was wrong here, if in fact he did go back and set the damper to tdc and #1 cylinder is at tdc then he could drop the distributor in at #1 spark position. I hope that's what he did.
 
The picture posted of the timing chain & gears is the original factory timing chain set as installed at the factory before I ever touched it. That picture is not the replacement chain.
I did set the new chain in position exactly the same way as the picture shows, which also matches the service manual.
BUT! Just to be sure, I pulled the distributor out yesterday and flipped it 180º, and the car popped out through the carburator, but wouldn't start.

I have the service manual here, and if you look at Group 9, page 33 you will see a picture of the timing chain installation. It shows the timing marks for the cam sprocket at 6 0clock, and the mark for the crank sprocket at 12 0clock.
Like I said, I am sure it was installed correctly the first time, but I spun the dist 180º just to eliminate that possibility. No start.

I'm going to look for a compression tester to use today, and I'll write down the numbers and report them to you guys.
I am not expecting big numbers, however.
There can be no other possibility.
Having said that, and without trying to sound smug, I have been involved with street cars since I was a young guy. My experience with engines goes back to the late 70's. I have owned Dodge trucks since 1986. I have been rebuilding and racing Chevy motors since the early 80's. I know my way around a motor, even though I am new to Mopar cars. I understand the basics of engine operation, but I am still unfamiliar with Mopar specific parts like ballast resistors, the wiring to/from the ignition key and the like. Having said that, I am pretty sure I didn't do anything wrong when I put the engine in the car, and it DID run well when it ran, so I don't think it is something easy or obvious that is wrong with the car. I never over revved the engine, or abused it an any way. It was idling in my garage with me sitting in the car. It had a lot of oil pressure, then after about 45 seconds it simply shut off. I am going to stick with my final analysis of the problem and say that it lost compression. I also think the problem is in the lower end, not the cylinder heads. I was TOLD this engine "ran like a bear" by the seller, but I never heard it run before I put it in the car some 7 months after I bought it. I was TOLD the engine was always stored in a dry place, but I cannot verify that either. What is worrying me now is, the seller also told me the transmission "will bark the tires with every shift, even when you're going slow". The 3 or 4 times I drove it around the block, it shifted like a Cadillac transmission; very soft and smooth. I wouldn't be surprised if the trans was bad too. I can rebuild the motor here at the house like I have done so many times in the past, but if the trans needs to be rebuilt, I will have to sent it out to be rebuilt. I don't even know where to sent it around here, but I won't know if it needs to be done until after I get the engine back in the car which would mean I would have to take the car apart again. Not to mention yet another added expense.
When I put the trans in DRIVE it engages right away. But when I put it in REVERSE (from drive or park) it takes a little while to engage. That to me doesn't sound good.
Back to the engine and to keep this thread on track, I will do a compression check and report back. I hope to be able to do that within the next few days, hopefully today, but I still have to replace the starter before I can check compression.

I want to publically thank each and every one of you guys for all the help here. Not only to those that posted ideas and things to check, but also to those that sent PM's in an attempt to rectify the problem.
FABO is one hell of a website.

George
 
Damn George I just noticed this thread!! - I once had a 66 Rustang and I had the same problem couldnt figure it out for ever - it ended up the cam had broke and the last 6 lobes did not move so I lost 6,7,8 cylinder - that is the time I learned to do a compession test right out of the box - I even did it with my 273 before I started it cause I was worried about pushrod length - all this to say hang in there its something crazy but simple and you will find it you may not like what you find but your gonna find it!! And George THANKS for all your help youve been a great help and sounding board for me while getting my car going. Do the comp Test - if their is compression you can make her run!!!
Bill
 
George R said:
The picture posted of the timing chain & gears is the original factory timing chain set as installed at the factory before I ever touched it. That picture is not the replacement chain.
I did set the new chain in position exactly the same way as the picture shows, which also matches the service manual.
BUT! Just to be sure, I pulled the distributor out yesterday and flipped it 180º, and the car popped out through the carburator, but wouldn't start.

I have the service manual here, and if you look at Group 9, page 33 you will see a picture of the timing chain installation. It shows the timing marks for the cam sprocket at 6 0clock, and the mark for the crank sprocket at 12 0clock.
Like I said, I am sure it was installed correctly the first time, but I spun the dist 180º just to eliminate that possibility. No start.

I'm going to look for a compression tester to use today, and I'll write down the numbers and report them to you guys.
I am not expecting big numbers, however.
There can be no other possibility.
Having said that, and without trying to sound smug, I have been involved with street cars since I was a young guy. My experience with engines goes back to the late 70's. I have owned Dodge trucks since 1986. I have been rebuilding and racing Chevy motors since the early 80's. I know my way around a motor, even though I am new to Mopar cars. I understand the basics of engine operation, but I am still unfamiliar with Mopar specific parts like ballast resistors, the wiring to/from the ignition key and the like. Having said that, I am pretty sure I didn't do anything wrong when I put the engine in the car, and it DID run well when it ran, so I don't think it is something easy or obvious that is wrong with the car. I never over revved the engine, or abused it an any way. It was idling in my garage with me sitting in the car. It had a lot of oil pressure, then after about 45 seconds it simply shut off. I am going to stick with my final analysis of the problem and say that it lost compression. I also think the problem is in the lower end, not the cylinder heads. I was TOLD this engine "ran like a bear" by the seller, but I never heard it run before I put it in the car some 7 months after I bought it. I was TOLD the engine was always stored in a dry place, but I cannot verify that either. What is worrying me now is, the seller also told me the transmission "will bark the tires with every shift, even when you're going slow". The 3 or 4 times I drove it around the block, it shifted like a Cadillac transmission; very soft and smooth. I wouldn't be surprised if the trans was bad too. I can rebuild the motor here at the house like I have done so many times in the past, but if the trans needs to be rebuilt, I will have to sent it out to be rebuilt. I don't even know where to sent it around here, but I won't know if it needs to be done until after I get the engine back in the car which would mean I would have to take the car apart again. Not to mention yet another added expense.
When I put the trans in DRIVE it engages right away. But when I put it in REVERSE (from drive or park) it takes a little while to engage. That to me doesn't sound good.
Back to the engine and to keep this thread on track, I will do a compression check and report back. I hope to be able to do that within the next few days, hopefully today, but I still have to replace the starter before I can check compression.

I want to publically thank each and every one of you guys for all the help here. Not only to those that posted ideas and things to check, but also to those that sent PM's in an attempt to rectify the problem.
FABO is one hell of a website.

George
Click to expand...

George

I have been following this for a while now and hope I didn't miss anything...

Since it quit like a smothered engine, I still say it's an electrical problem, which Mopars are famous for! LOL.

The timing chain issue... as long as you don't change the orientation of the sprockets, it's off with the old, on with the new. I wouldn't have replaced it if it didn't jump and there was no difference in the slack.

You obviously know how to time an engine, and know about compression stroke etc...

Fuel to carb seems Ok...quality questionable, but problem would appear right away.

The only thing left that I would check is the fusible link from the relay to the bulbhead, and then to the ign switch. Then, possible bad relay or ign switch itself.

The start circuit might be provide cranking, but the run circuit could be shot.

I think there area couple of fusible links under the dash from the amp meter to ign and fuse box if i recall correctlly.

Hope this helps and that someone here can elaborate on the electrical end because I'm not an expert with this stuff, but will attempt it.

My bulkhead connection gave me alot of grief... spent all last winter with dash out and did amp bypass. What a birds nest!. Mopars need a lot of attention to electrical, but worth it.

Don't give up George...we're here for ya!

Jim

DSCN0440 (Small) (2).JPG
 
Hi Jim,
I tested for power at that fusible link in your picture. I have power at the red wire/fuse link connector, and I have power at the fuse link/bulkhead connector.

My amps gauge works, and I can see it moving when the car is cranking. If I turn on the headlights, the amp gauge will move towards the discharge side.
I have not checked the ignition switch itself, but I did make sure the plug was tight on the back of the switch. It isn't easy to reach with the dash completely assembled.

What relay are you refering to in your post, the starter relay? If the car cranks over, the relay is working, no?
I ran a power wire from the battery to the coil in an attempt to eliminate the possibility of a bad switch, but does this trick eliminate the whole list of possible problems?

Thanks for the post!

George
 
George R said:
Hi Jim,
I tested for power at that fusible link in your picture. I have power at the red wire/fuse link connector, and I have power at the fuse link/bulkhead connector.

My amps gauge works, and I can see it moving when the car is cranking. If I turn on the headlights, the amp gauge will move towards the discharge side.
I have not checked the ignition switch itself, but I did make sure the plug was tight on the back of the switch. It isn't easy to reach with the dash completely assembled.

What relay are you refering to in your post, the starter relay? If the car cranks over, the relay is working, no?
I ran a power wire from the battery to the coil in an attempt to eliminate the possibility of a bad switch, but does this trick eliminate the whole list of possible problems?

Thanks for the post!

George
Click to expand...

Yeah the starter relay... I recently talked to some one who carries a spare relay along with spare ecu, which you don't need...yet!

I think the relay can still short out with all those connections going to it, even though you can crank thru it.

I know the ign switch is a ***** to get at. Swapping it to another good switch is the only real test.

Your dash wiring sound good.

I think your almost there George.

Jim
 
I had similar problem with one of my old darts went through the replacing fuel system parts,timing chain,distributer exc.. and it ended up being a bad vacuum leak.The car started but ran real rough with no power..died when i tried to put it in gear and i had to advance the heck out of the timing to keep it running.I'd say if the engines compression checks out this is probably your problem.
 
George R;340071 I have the service manual here said:
I hope somewhere in there it tells you that installing it like that you have tdc on #6. (This is the exhaust stroke)
You won't be at tdc on # 1 Until you rotate the crank one full turn and then the gears are aligned to the 12 and 12 position.

p.s. If you did not pull the distributor then there is nothing to worry about anyway.
Click to expand...
 
If I remember correctly, it WAS running and then died and could never restart. Am I correct? I think its electrical. When the distributor comes in, set the points at .014(equals about 28* dwell), pull #1 plug, bump it to #1 tdc, drop the distributor in and advance it a bit. In the meantime, I would pull all the plugs and let the gas evaporate if needed.

In regards to the timing chain, both george r and 63 dartman are correct. You install them at 6/12 oclock then bump it around to #1, then drop in the distributor.

We ARE going to get this George. Patience. I wish I was there.
 
IT RUNS!
A local Mopar guy named Gary that I met last fall bumped into me at the parts store this am when I was getting my distributor. I told him what happened, and he said to call him after I replace the starter and do a compression test. He didn't think the engine lost compression.
I put the new starter in it, and this one spins the engine over WAY faster than the Carlisle rebuild I had in it.
The comp test showed 170-200PSI on all 8 cylinders, so I got my buddy Gary on the phone, and he came right over.
We rechecked everything, and put back all the new parts that I had taken off while trying to find the problem. No start.
We then checked the new AFB I just got, and it was soaking the intake runners with gas. Might have got screwed up in shipping, I dunno. Anyway, we put the original AVS back on the car, and removed the plugs which were soaked with fuel. I mean dripping wet. Gas vapor was coming out of the cylinders when I cranked it over with the plugs out. We checked for spark, and he said it was weak, so we installed the new distributor that already had a new set of points and condenser in it. Gary thought the condenser in my distributor was borderline, and combined with all the fuel which fouled the plugs, the ignition system couldn't overcome it. I bought a new set of plugs, and he sprayed some ether in the carb. I don't think the engine made one revolution with the starter and it fired to life! I have to retime the engine with a little more advance, but the plug wires and vacuum advance won't allow any more advance. I need to rotate the wires on the cap, or reindex the oil pump drive.
Gary, like most of you, convinced me to switch to the Mopar Electronic Ignition system. I'll have to spring for a kit soon. I'll just hide the box in the car, and run the wires so they aren't noticable.

But it runs! Now I can finish my exhaust system install, get a front end alignment done, and get my plates.

I want to take the time to thank all of you guys who spent so much time trying to help me with this. I am embarrased that I couldn't figure it out, but I wanted to tell all of you that it now runs, and what the trouble was. It wasn't any ONE thing, but a combination of things. I think the plugs went south first, then the condenser died laughing! :D

Thanks again guys. Like I said, FABO is one hell of a website!!

Big Richie-O, you crack me up man, thanks a LOT for the PM you sent! You made my day man! I wish you lived closer so I could buy you lunch!

George
 
That's what I wanted to see!!!!!

Still the KING... not that it was ever in doubt. I knew that you would get that thing running. Sorry that you had to go through all that work but when it runs it makes it that much better. It might not be opening day of school but you'll be able to pick your kids up now and I'm sure they're pretty happy about that. Hey, I have relatives in Connecticut (Niantic / Waterford area) so you never know I might show up one day and take you up on that lunch offer.

Rich
 
George, Glad to hear you got it running. I'm sure you were grins from ear to ear when that baby kicked over. Thanks for posting the fix too.
 
Geez, that was easy! ;-) Enjoy your vacation. Don't be embarrassed, it was a toughie. Ain't the internet cool? (Might wanna change that gassy oil.) Peel out, Dude!
 
Yeah, I'll get the oil changed tomorrow. I need some more drain oil for my lawnmover anyway. :D
I took the car around the block to try it out, and it seems to have a hesitation and maybe a slight miss that I need to look for, but other than that it is AOK again. At least I'm back where I was 3 weeks ago.

I stopped for a stop sign, and the 727 went back to 1st gear. I gave it a little push on the gas pedal and when it hit 2nd gear it let out a decent chirp. I was surprised to say the least.

I also need to fix the choke. It never fully opens because the heat riser valve had been removed, so I left the choke coil off. Maybe I will set up a manual choke until I can figure something else out. Also, without the choke, I have to spray a little starting fluid in the carb in order for it to start so I really need to get the choke fixed.
I'm just afraid to touch it right now for fear I'll screw it up somehow. I guess I'll be a little gun shy for a while. LOL

George
 
Glad to hear it George! I knew you would get it fixed. I'll bet that old starter has a short in it.
:cheers:
 
bobscuda67 said:
Glad to hear it George! I knew you would get it fixed. I'll bet that old starter has a short in it.
:cheers:
Click to expand...
Well, I bet SOMETHING is wrong with it.
It was "freshly rebuilt" for sale at Mopar Carlisle, and they only wanted $25 for it. Like I said, the new one spins the motor over WAY faster than the old one. Only thing is, I'm hit for the 25 bones. Maybe I'll return it to them next year! LOL

George
 
When I read post 166, I raised my arms over my head like I had just scored a touchdown! I`m so happy you got the car going again and your friend Gary deserves a pat on the back. Way to persevere George! :cheers:The electronic ignition and some additional timing shoud get rid of that little hiccup. Do you like the car again? :toothy10:
 
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