72 360 first start question

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Am i meant to point the rotor at the TOOTH that is approaching #1 cylinder )
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With the dampener at 15 (& that number is fairly close to dead on & is a better setting than any other amt no matter what else is going on) then with the magnet dead even with the reluctor tooth, that is the exact time/point that fire will jump from the rotor tip and at that point you want the rotor pointing fairly close to the underside of the #1 plug wire cap terminal. the springs will have the rotor retracted at that point when you are checking it with the cap off & the can will shift it CCW from that at rest position when running. the rotor tip and the cap terminal are pretty wide so you have alot of leeway there but that distance cannot be too great or it will misfire. this is "rotor phasing" which I dont think is the issue but yes we need to start at 15. Holler back
 
Mophile said:
ok so here's my new question, regardless of wether the dampener set at zero or 15 or 30, Am i meant to point the rotor at the tooth that is approaching #1 cylinder ) basically (#3CYLINDER) or directly at the #1? If I'm directly at #1 with the dampener at 15 deg. it doesn't wanna run that well. but pointing at #3 approaching #1 it wants to run all day. I still can't get it to a reasonable idle. At the above described setting i can get it to run with no throttle screw advance, and backing the diet. down all the way to 12-24 deg. advanced. That sounds fine but it's still sounds like it's gonna snap my neck if i try and put it in gear. If i back the dist. down one more degree it suddenly sounds like a good idle but then wants to die. super close but still confused????
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The above is not at all clear. When you say rotor, do you mean the spark rotor under the distributor cap? And when you mean tooth, do you mean tooth on the reluctor wheel on the distributor shaft? (The trigger wheel?)

I am assuming you have the standard Mopar ignition system; can you please confirm?

The spark rotor should point at the distributor cap tower tower where the #1 spark plug wire is connected when damper is at the number of degrees BTDC where you want the initial timing. At that crank setting, one of the reluctor trigger teeth on the distributor shaft should be pointed right at the reluctor's pick up gap.

If you have the Mopar ignition system, read this: If you have to set up the distributor with the reluctor's trigger tooth pointing somewhere beside directly at the reluctor pickup gap to get the timing and running right , then you likely have the reluctor wiring/phasing backwards. This is corrected by reversing the 2 wires from the distributor to the electronic module. If it is backwards, the module will be firing on the wrong slope of the reluctor pulse, and timing will be erratic, varying all over hell and creation, and it will run poorly.

While you are there, set the gap between the reluctor trigger wheel teeth and the reluctor. It should be .008" and needs to be set WITHOUT using a steel feeler gauge, which can mess up the reluctor. Use a brass .008" shim or 3 sheets of standard copier paper to set the gap. Get that check out of the way.

BTW, what cam again? Hard to tell if the 12" vacuum is good or not without knowing the cam. 12" is too low for a stockish cam.
 
Mophile said:
ok so here's my new question, regardless of wether the dampener set at zero or 15 or 30, Am i meant to point the rotor at the tooth that is approaching #1 cylinder ) basically (#3CYLINDER) or directly at the #1? If I'm directly at #1 with the dampener at 15 deg. it doesn't wanna run that well. but pointing at #3 approaching #1 it wants to run all day.
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I didn't go back and look, what distributor are you running.

IF it's aftermarket, some of them have the drive tab and rotor clocked differently than a factory unit.
 
here's the cam and diet. that I'm running

Comp Cam Magnum, 270H
Mild High Performance in 340


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Part Number: Grind Number:
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sorry if that was unclear, when i said rotor yes i meant the spark rotor under the dist cap and by tooth yes i mean the tooth on the bottom of the dist. shaft that connects to the oil drive gear. Basically if i set the dampener at 15 deg. BTDC and then set the oil drive gear so that it points my dist. spark rotordirectly at the #1 cylinder it will run but very rough. Now if I turn the oil drive gear one tooth CW so the dist spark rotor is now pointing between the #3 cylinder and the #1 cylinder it will run solidly but still at too high of an rpm for idle. when i turn the dist. CCW to retard the timing I can get it very close to an idle speed but still just a lil to hot. If i retard one more degree it'll start sounding like a really good idle but it wants to die unless i keep throttling it. It won't run on it's own anymore at that point. does that make any sense? When i set my dist. I'm always starting with the magnet even/parralel to the reluctor tooth on the bottom of the diet shaft and the spark rotor is lined up with the #1 cap wire. so I know that's not the problem. Also when i start it with the magnet lined up like this it runs at a very high rpm unto i turn the dist. CW to retard it.
 
about the dist. wiring being out of phase, the wires coming out of the dist. have that factory connector on them that pugs into the wires coming out of the ignition control module. Are you saying that I should cut those and switch their orientation? I never heard of that but I'll try anything at this point.
 
OK on diet...LOL. Understood what you are saying now. And thank on the cam info again; thread is getting long for searching. Let me think about it, but I think the reluctor pulse phasing may still need to be looked at. If you have the 2 distributor wires reversed, then the actual firing point will be when the tooth is somewhere else than pointing directly at the reluctor gap. All this applies for the Mopar system....so....

Is this indeed a stock Mopar ignition system? Can you describe it all if something else?

And are you using a timing light to look at the timing?

And do you really mean that when you move the oil gear by one tooth CW, then the spark rotor points between #1 and #3? That does not make sense; #8 should be the next spark plug number CW from #1.

And another thing not making sense is that you say you turn the distributor CCW to retard timing.... that should advance it. We ARE talking about a small block Mopar, right?!?

BTW, never say "so I know that's not the problem" in a situation like this one LOL
 
Mophile said:
about the dist. wiring being out of phase, the wires coming out of the dist. have that factory connector on them that pugs into the wires coming out of the ignition control module. Are you saying that I should cut those and switch their orientation? I never heard of that but I'll try anything at this point.
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That would be the idea. But answer and let's discuss the other questions first on the CW and firing order questions and CCW for retard, etc, that I just posted before you do anything like that; you have other things to check first.
 
Mophile said:
about the dist. wiring being out of phase, the wires coming out of the dist. have that factory connector on them that pugs into the wires coming out of the ignition control module. Are you saying that I should cut those and switch their orientation? I never heard of that but I'll try anything at this point.
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Another thing you might try.

If you have an old cap that is in working condition, drill a 1/4 inch hole in it between #1 wire and the coil post. With the engine fired up check with a timing light to see if the rotor is right there. Hook your light up just like you would for checking the timing and shoot it on that hole.
 
Bad Sport said:
Another thing you might try.

If you have an old cap that is in working condition, drill a 1/4 inch hole in it between #1 wire and the coil post. With the engine fired up check with a timing light to see if the rotor is right there. Hook your light up just like you would for checking the timing and shoot it on that hole.
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That is a neat idea!
 
I'm terrible at writing and thinking at the same time. I meant when i turn the oil gear CCW it ends up between 1 and 3 and I retard the timing by turning the dist. CW. towards the passenger side.
 
Mophile said:
And it is a proform ignition system. It's not stock mopar ignition or a mplar performance kit, it's the slightly less expensive after market model. brand new made for mopar...

http://www.jegs.com/i/Proform/778/6...7&cadevice=c&gclid=COatqOG82cgCFUlrfgod9F8NUw
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So is the rotor clocked the same way as the OEM piece?

"Sometimes", these aftermarket dizzies aren't put together the same way, WHY I don't know.

Check and see that the rotor and the drive tang on the bottom of the shaft are lined up. If not, you have to correct for that.
 
the rotor does line up with the tooth on the bottom of the dist. shaft. Good idea though.
 
Mophile said:
I'm terrible at writing and thinking at the same time. I meant when i turn the oil gear CCW it ends up between 1 and 3 and I retard the timing by turning the dist. CW. towards the passenger side.
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OK. The retard by turning CW makes sense. I am still not sure what you are saying here; if you turn the shaft 1 tooth CCW, you are not going to end up anywhere near #3 spark plug. Do you mean the spark rotor ends up pointing between #1 and #3 cylinders?
 
Mophile said:
And it is a proform ignition system. It's not stock mopar ignition or a mplar performance kit, it's the slightly less expensive after market model. brand new made for mopar..
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From what I can see, it works just like the Mopar system. Make sure the reluctor gap is set at .008" as per the instructions.

I would ask that you do this: Set it where it is idling stably, at as low an RPM as you can, and with the vacuum advance plugged. Look at your timing mark with a timing light and note it. Then stop the engine and line the crank mark right where the timing mark was seen with the light when it was idling. Then, without moving the crank, pull off the distributor cap, and look to see if one of the trigger teeth on the distributor shaft is point dead-on right at the reluctor gap. (Make sure you know what the reluctor gap is that you are looking for.)

This is a simple check to see if your reluctor phasing is reversed or OK.
 
BTW, are you backing down the ignition timing to try to get the idle down? I am not sure I am reading your posts right.

And do you have the vacuum advance hose on the distributor disconnected and plugged? I would be doing that to be sure any timing variations from the vacuum advance are being taken out.

How does the timing change when it wants to die? And at what RPM does it idle OK?
 
So yes I mean that the spark rotor ends up pointing between #1 and #3 when I rotate the oil drive gear CCW. I will try that reluctor gap test tomorrow. Also yes I'm retarding the ignition timing (rotating the dist.) to bring the idle down. I don't hav a tach hooked up but I think that's my next move. But as I back the idle down by turning my dist. I get it to a point where it'll run steady but it's still too much for and idle (12 deg. BTDC on the timing light) and it's literally one more tiny turn of the dist. a degree or two at most and all of a sudden it sounds like a good idle but if I don't keep hitting the throttle every couple seconds it'll sputter and die. Also Yes I'm setting the initial timing with the vacuum advance line disconnected and plugged on the carb. when I connect it, my rpm's go way up and then I can back down the ignition timing further by turning the dist. but it's still the same thing. I can't get it to that sweet idle spot.
 
Mophile said:
So yes I mean that the spark rotor ends up pointing between #1 and #3 when I rotate the oil drive gear CCW. I will try that reluctor gap test tomorrow. Also yes I'm retarding the ignition timing (rotating the dist.) to bring the idle down. I don't hav a tach hooked up but I think that's my next move. But as I back the idle down by turning my dist. I get it to a point where it'll run steady but it's still too much for and idle (12 deg. BTDC on the timing light) and it's literally one more tiny turn of the dist. a degree or two at most and all of a sudden it sounds like a good idle but if I don't keep hitting the throttle every couple seconds it'll sputter and die. Also Yes I'm setting the initial timing with the vacuum advance line disconnected and plugged on the carb. when I connect it, my rpm's go way up and then I can back down the ignition timing further by turning the dist. but it's still the same thing. I can't get it to that sweet idle spot.
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Two things.

Are you connecting it to ported vacuum?

If you are sure about that,

Do you have a leak in the hose, or in the vacuum advance can? Keep in mind just cuz it's new doesn't mean it's good.

The idle should not go up just connecting the advance canister.
 
Mophile said:
But as I back the idle down by turning my dist. I get it to a point where it'll run steady but it's still too much for and idle (12 deg. BTDC on the timing light) and it's literally one more tiny turn of the dist. a degree or two at most and all of a sudden it sounds like a good idle but if I don't keep hitting the throttle every couple seconds it'll sputter and die. Also Yes I'm setting the initial timing with the vacuum advance line disconnected and plugged on the carb. when I connect it, my rpm's go way up and then I can back down the ignition timing further by turning the dist. but it's still the same thing. I can't get it to that sweet idle spot.
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OK, well the pointing of the spark rotor is not all that important as long as it is hitting the right spark tower, and if it runs smoothly, then it is good enough for now. I'd stop looking at the ignition for now.

From you last description, it should like you are fighting some mix of carb throttle plate settings and probably a continued vacuum leak. If you can keep it running at lower RPM's by blipping the throttle, it is likely that you are just using the accelerator pump every few seconds to add in enough fuel to keep it running. If you don't blip the throttle, then it soudns like it is just leaning and dying out.

Is the idle set screw at a point where it is loose, it is it still actually the item that is holding the throttle open?

How do you have the idle mixture screws set?

Have you looked under the carb and seen if the secondary throttle plates are properly closed? If they are too far open at rest, then that will add a lot of extra air in under the carb; that can behave like a vacuum leak.

Also, when you have the vacuum advance line disconnected, make sure it is also plugged. Are you sure that the vacuum advance line is connected to the ported vacuum port? Your symptoms almost sound like it is connected to the manifold vacuum. Check the vacuum on the vaccum advance line at a stabel idle at as low an RPM as you can get; it ought to be near zero. If it is at/near 12" then it is not connected right (for the Mopar system).
 
Ok thanks guys, these are both good advice. I feel like it has to be vacuum related too. I have the throttle screw just barely turned, quarter turn past being loose. and I have the idle mixture screws 2 1/2 turns out. After experimenting with them this seems to be the best setting so far. I'll look at the secondary plates today. I do have the vacuum advance connected to the ported vacuum on the carb. and the big carb port is connected to the crank case breather.. That's how it's set up on my 68 dart with the same carb. I hear you about new not necessarily begin good. I have lots of new parts be junk lately. I might try swapping the dist. from my dart and see if that changes anything. Just hate messing with a car that's running good!
 
Hey everybody sorry to leave you hanging with no finale, but unfortunately as I progressed on this build and decided my holley 670 cfm that was originally on the engine wash;t cutting the mustard, I began swapping out my holley 500 cdm off my 340 dart (which is my daily driver) to work on the 360 in the van. Anywho every time i swapped it i had to retune it and eventually the dart had enough and tool a crap on me. I've pent the last week going through all kinds of weird issues with the dart that ran great for the last 5 years. gonna order a new carb for the 360 so I don't have to deal with it anymore. But hears a good question! My Dart always did this sort of thud feeling when braking hard it always seemed to be on the drivers side. After tuning the idle mixture screws almost all the way out it got a lot better but was still there only that caused diesling when I'd go to turn the car off. I've done the put it in neutral and brake test and it's not in the brakes/suspension. Pretty sure it was always in the timing/carb tuning but it was always livable. Now here's the interesting part, as I switched the carb back and forth a dozen times or more and retuned it over an over, suddenly the dart wouldn't start at all and then when i got it running it would cut out like an electrical issue. so i traced everything, remade battery connections at the battery at the starter swapped out the VR and the control module just to be safe and now it runs but i have to advance it quite a bit or give it a lot of throttle. ( which was is the issue with the 360! it's contagious) but the funny thing is the thud knocking sound moved from the driver side to the passenger side and went from only when i was braking hard to once i got up to 25-30 mph and then is pretty constant. I'mnot ruling out rod knock but it doesn't have the metallic tinny sound it's more like a solid thud this thud almost like the granny's hitting the floor but it continues if i put it into neutral. A mophile is defined as someone with 2 or more molars broken down in their driveway. I finally made it. sorry for the novel, been a long strange trip.
 
Hmmm, I don't have any molars in my driveway.....maybe that has been my problem all along.

Waaay too much info above to digest.
 
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