80s Lean Burn distributor and Fitech EFI

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Ark

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Anyone ever done it? Seems like it should work, since there's no advance mechanism to the distributor at all, and you can skip any lockout plates, welding, disassembly, or having to buy an MSD distributor. Just the two pickup wires to the ECU and set base timing to spec with the computer. Seems too easy to be true, has anyone actually tried it?

Motor is a mild 360/727 with a Mopar electronic ignition, stock coil, vacuum advance distributor, and ballast resistor. The other option is to drop a FBO lockout plate into the existing distributor to lock it at 0 degrees. Is there any functional difference between the two?
 
Skip those Lean Burn distributors with their dual pickups and weird phasing and just use a stock distributor out of the TBI roller engines of the late 80s/early 90s; or ANY Magnum distributor. "Giveaway" dirt cheap and parts are available everywhere.
 
Professor Fate said:
Skip those Lean Burn distributors with their dual pickups and weird phasing and just use a stock distributor out of the TBI roller engines of the late 80s/early 90s; or ANY Magnum distributor. "Giveaway" dirt cheap and parts are available everywhere.
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I've got a box somewhere with a stock distributor out of an '87 Fifth Ave with a roller 318. I haven't dug it out yet, but should be single pickup and not the goofy dual pickup distributors from the earlier Lean Burns. That was what I had in mind.
 
Not sure about the non-TBI rollers, those used a feedback carb and I'm not familiar with the type of distributor they use- it might be a possibility. That's why I singled out the TBI motors and Magnums- I know those can work (at least with Snipers, I assume Fitech as well).
 
I can't find anything about the FiTech controlling the ignition. Does it control it or just need an input?

If it doesn't control it, you need something to trigger the coil.
 
DionR said:
I can't find anything about the FiTech controlling the ignition. Does it control it or just need an input?

If it doesn't control it, you need something to trigger the coil.
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This was a misunderstanding I also had until I dug further into it.

The Fitech ECU has the ability to trigger the coil and control spark. It can directly take the place of an ignition box. That black wire can ALSO be run to the "points input wire" on a MSD or similar CDI box to command it to trigger.

It can also run as fuel mixture control only, utilizing that blue wire as a tach signal wire instead of controlling the coil. The only interaction with the ignition system then is using it for an RPM signal. As my current ignition system is functional, I was going to start out that way until I was satisfied the Fitech unit functions correctly, then hook it up for timing control.

One question I am still trying to find answers to is what kind of coil the Fitech ECU is capable of running. The guy I talked to on the phone basically told me to delete the ballast resistor and orange box and not worry about it. Can it run an e-core coil? Canister? Is there an ohm and voltage spec for the coil? He didn't know any of those things.
 
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Did the whole FI Tech with a 318.
Single wire from coil controls.
Always ran rich especially at idle.
Had to keep relearning with hand held. It would not keep a tune.
More time with technical assist than I talk to my wife in all these years…. And they are horrible too. My wife I still like.
I will sell you a compete set up cheap- 1,000miles or less on it. Not what they promised…. At all.
Syleng1
 
Yes run the E-core coil. Produces much more magnetism with the full 12 volt feed and no ballast resistor. In turn produces much hotter spark.

Runs cool to the touch.

Here is a good video on ohms resistance numbers on different coils.



Screenshot_20240621-084421_Gallery.jpg


Said E-coil application is: '95 F150 as the author also uses in his race car.

Simple 2 post spade hookups.

20240504_204359.jpg



☆☆☆☆☆
 
George Jets said:
Yes run the E-core coil. Produces much more magnetism with the full 12 volt feed and no ballast resistor. In turn produces much hotter spark.

Here is a good video on ohms resistance numbers on different coils.



View attachment 1716265736

Said E-coil application is: '95 F150 as the author also uses in his race car.

Simple 2 post spade hookups.

View attachment 1716265737


☆☆☆☆☆
Click to expand...

The e-core benefits are definitely there, but my understanding was that the controller (ECU, MSD box, whatever) had to have the necessary dwell control capability.

Fitech sells their own CDI ignition box and e-core coil pairing. So it had me scratching my head why that product exists if the regular ECU could run an e-core coil without issue.
 
Ark said:
The e-core benefits are definitely there, but my understanding was that the controller (ECU, MSD box, whatever) had to have the necessary dwell control capability.

Fitech sells their own CDI ignition box and e-core coil pairing. So it had me scratching my head why that product exists if the regular ECU could run an e-core coil without issue.
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Marketing ploy, they want to sell you their high priced labled parts.

When OEM parts work just as well if not better. Check out Rock Auto, you can get the above E-coil for under 25 dollars.

Has proven to work well.

Screenshot_20240621-082740_Firefox.jpg



☆☆☆☆☆
 
Poor tach signal, and electronic noise is the enemy of any of these bolt on tbi systems. I have had customers cover their entire engine bays with aluminum foil to try and combat rfi interference and poor runability, just to avoid spending $200 on a billet type distributor, at the expense of their $1500 efi systems.
Not trying to be rude at all, but I have been dealing with fitech and snipers since they came out. I can't understand the logic of compromising the entire efi setup with an oe distributor and/or coil that were so electronically noisy, Chrysler started adding diodes and resistors to keep static out of the radio.

Also, the snipers say right in the instructions that the coil driver is not recommended for use with a e core coil. I can't speak for the fitech. I haven't messed with one for years. But I have only ever used a canister coil with them, or snipers for that matter.

You don't have to buy mine...but please save yourself the headache and look into a pro billet.
Chrysler 273-360 c.i. SB Compatible ProSeries 2-Wire Distributor - Black Cap

45K Volt Ignition Coil - Canister Round Oil-Filled - Female Socket - Black

Way back in My pace days, I had DOZENS of customers try to make oe distributors work, and I think every single one called back after struggles and struggles, and bought a pro billet, and passable rotor.

Hope this helps someone.
 
Running the above E-coils with the mopar HEI conversions. Yes works well, quick starts.

20240507_165952.jpg


(not running with the mopar electronic brain box)



☆☆☆☆☆
 
Johnny Mac said:
Poor tach signal, and electronic noise is the enemy of any of these bolt on tbi systems. I have had customers cover their entire engine bays with aluminum foil to try and combat rfi interference and poor runability, just to avoid spending $200 on a billet type distributor, at the expense of their $1500 efi systems.
Not trying to be rude at all, but I have been dealing with fitech and snipers since they came out. I can't understand the logic of compromising the entire efi setup with an oe distributor and/or coil that were so electronically noisy, Chrysler started adding diodes and resistors to keep static out of the radio.

Also, the snipers say right in the instructions that the coil driver is not recommended for use with a e core coil. I can't speak for the fitech. I haven't messed with one for years. But I have only ever used a canister coil with them, or snipers for that matter.

You don't have to buy mine...but please save yourself the headache and look into a pro billet.
Chrysler 273-360 c.i. SB Compatible ProSeries 2-Wire Distributor - Black Cap

45K Volt Ignition Coil - Canister Round Oil-Filled - Female Socket - Black

Way back in My pace days, I had DOZENS of customers try to make oe distributors work, and I think every single one called back after struggles and struggles, and bought a pro billet, and passable rotor.

Hope this helps someone.
Click to expand...
Why does a billet distributor emit less EM noise than OE distributors? Seemed like people who had new MSD billet distributors were also running into the RFI challenges. With timing control enabled and the ECU using the distributor pickup instead of reading an RPM signal off the negative side of the coil like a tachometer, the single biggest RFI issue should be eliminated. Users have the most problems getting that clean tach signal off the coil.

Do your distributors have a built-in lockout method or do they need a plate? Current ignition on the car was all built 15 years ago and the distributor was already used at that time, a total refresh of distributor/coil/wires is not the worst idea.
 
Don't try and reinvent. Fitech needs a two wire magnetic pickup dist that's locked out AND a adjustable rotor. I had Fitech on my 70 Dart with timing control, MSD pro billet locked out with MSD adjustable rotor and MSD EFI 6 box. It worked as it should. Knowing what I know now, I would go with a Holley sniper and their with their dual spark pre phased dist. That just takes a the guess work out of setup and its all working together.

Also, Holley has way more support.
 
Ark said:
Why does a billet distributor emit less EM noise than OE distributors? Seemed like people who had new MSD billet distributors were also running into the RFI challenges. With timing control enabled and the ECU using the distributor pickup instead of reading an RPM signal off the negative side of the coil like a tachometer, the single biggest RFI issue should be eliminated. Users have the most problems getting that clean tach signal off the coil.

Do your distributors have a built-in lockout method or do they need a plate? Current ignition on the car was all built 15 years ago and the distributor was already used at that time, a total refresh of distributor/coil/wires is not the worst idea.
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I would have to disagree that enabling timing control eliminates most issues. Timing control is at minimum, equally problematic, and susceptible to issues. And using an oe distributor just contributes to the problems. In my very simplistic opinion, stock distributors simply weren't what these efi units were designed for. The msd units are also plastic on the base for a SB, vs mine are all billet. RFI Can also come from anywhere. Poor plug wires, poor coil, poor wire routing. No doubt that 1000 get installed successfully, but the 10 that have issues post online. (No necessarily complaining or slinging mud, but still in the public eye of google) these tbi systems can refract rfi off the air cleaner base....off the hood, and I have personally even see engines die with the water temp sensor wire being too close to the ecu. The non timing control setup in my opinion is much less finicky. Buy if you want timing control especially, a stock distributor isn't where I would start. To answer the lockout question, the BluePrint distributors have an included lockout without any extra pieces needed. Just the passable rotor, which we also sell. Any replacement parts are all msd compatible. Also.
 
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Johnny Mac said:
I would have to disagree that enabling timing control eliminates most issues. Timing control is at minimum, equally problematic, and susceptible to issues. And using an oe distributor just contributes to the problems. In my very simplistic opinion, stock distributors simply weren't what these efi units were designed for. The msd units are also plastic on the base for a SB, vs mine are all billet. RFI Can also come from anywhere. Poor plug wires, poor coil, poor wire routing. No doubt that 1000 get installed successfully, but the 10 that have issues post online. (No necessarily complaining or slinging mud, but still in the public eye of google) these tbi systems can refract rfi off the air cleaner base....off the hood, and I have personally even see engines die with the water temp sensor wire being too close to the ecu. The non timing control setup in my opinion is much less finicky. Buy if you want timing control especially, a stock distributor isn't where I would start. To answer the lockout question, the BluePrint distributors have an included lockout without any extra pieces needed. Just the passable rotor, which we also sell. Any replacement parts are all msd compatible. Also.
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They do take a MSD phaseable rotor and have lockout? That's pretty rad. I will keep that bookmarked.

I'm not necessarily married to timing control. The current plan is to at least see if I can get it running on the existing ignition to rule out fuel side problems before moving on to ignition. Fresh spiral wound wires, plugs, cap/rotor will be part of the initial install.
 
I guess a crank trigger is one way around this? The phasing problem I mean. Keep in mind that electronic advances do not truly control spark "advance." More accurately they control more or less RETARD. This means the trigger must have to ability to start the electronics long before the spark is needed, so that the computer can think it over and RETARD it. Otherwise what you have is "time travel." So if the distributor quite simply has the trigger close enough to the rotor, the electronics certainly cannot retard it, unless the ELECTRONICS IS ABLE to retard one full spark tower, in other words the box is going to have to retard the trigger at least 45 degrees to "get back" there

I disagree with all the hand wringing on distributors. Proper shielding of the trigger wire and harness should go a long ways. You can buy shielding various places, or I have actually stripped out a scrap of coax to get a piece of shield. You can buy short lengths of shielded cable off ebay if nothing else.

Keep in mind that OEM vehicle you drive ---the manufacturer spent MILLIONS arguing with feedback and ground loops, EMI/RFI and other issues, not only with the engine controls but other systems as well. There used to be several active threads around the www about MSD triggering itself, or the high spark power interacting with external VR, causing the charging system to go nuts.

Think about such as any external box "switched" ignition. If you have either a Mopar box or an HEI conversion WAY over on the side apron, with the harness coming all the way from the coil clear back around to the box, that wire on the coil NEG carries a fairly high amperage / high power pulse. The trigger wires are right next to it. The 12V DC buss is not very well filtered unless YOU filter it. Several feet of wire away from the battery acts like an antenna, and the inductance of several feet of wire puts that wire above RF ground
 
67Dart273 said:
I guess a crank trigger is one way around this? The phasing problem I mean. Keep in mind that electronic advances do not truly control spark "advance." More accurately they control more or less RETARD. This means the trigger must have to ability to start the electronics long before the spark is needed, so that the computer can think it over and RETARD it. Otherwise what you have is "time travel." So if the distributor quite simply has the trigger close enough to the rotor, the electronics certainly cannot retard it, unless the ELECTRONICS IS ABLE to retard one full spark tower, in other words the box is going to have to retard the trigger at least 45 degrees to "get back" there

I disagree with all the hand wringing on distributors. Proper shielding of the trigger wire and harness should go a long ways. You can buy shielding various places, or I have actually stripped out a scrap of coax to get a piece of shield. You can buy short lengths of shielded cable off ebay if nothing else.

Keep in mind that OEM vehicle you drive ---the manufacturer spent MILLIONS arguing with feedback and ground loops, EMI/RFI and other issues, not only with the engine controls but other systems as well. There used to be several active threads around the www about MSD triggering itself, or the high spark power interacting with external VR, causing the charging system to go nuts.

Think about such as any external box "switched" ignition. If you have either a Mopar box or an HEI conversion WAY over on the side apron, with the harness coming all the way from the coil clear back around to the box, that wire on the coil NEG carries a fairly high amperage / high power pulse. The trigger wires are right next to it. The 12V DC buss is not very well filtered unless YOU filter it. Several feet of wire away from the battery acts like an antenna, and the inductance of several feet of wire puts that wire above RF ground
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Yeah, it is ultimately a janky solution to accomplish timing changes with "spark slop" between the rotor and the cap terminal. Mechanical advance physically moves stuff to change advance, and keeps that timing between the rotor and cap terminal consistent. There's no real way around that limitation with the Fitech timing control, without replacing everything with Holley's proprietary EFI distributor, or something like Progression Ignition's self contained digital timing system.

Current plan is to shield the tach signal wire with steel braiding and ground it on one end, as well as trimming unused wires instead of bundling.

The last point is interesting. All other things being equal, is it preferable to minimize wire (aka antenna) length when deciding where to locate components? Right now the coil is under the washer reservoir, the ignition box is on the inner right fender, the distributor is at the back of the engine, and the ECU is on the front of the throttle body.
 
Ark said:
They do take a MSD phaseable rotor and have lockout? That's pretty rad. I will keep that bookmarked.

I'm not necessarily married to timing control. The current plan is to at least see if I can get it running on the existing ignition to rule out fuel side problems before moving on to ignition. Fresh spiral wound wires, plugs, cap/rotor will be part of the initial install.
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Yes. The BluePrints take all msd replacement parts, and the phaseable rotors. We even have people buy our cap and rotors to put on msd units bc they don't like red lol.

This like has some spare parts we offer. The 84211 is an actual msd.

Distributor Parts
 
Ark said:
Yeah, it is ultimately a janky solution to accomplish timing changes with "spark slop" between the rotor and the cap terminal.
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Not sure that is really a problem. If you locate the rotor contact so it's in the middle of the curve, you are not talking about much leeway

Ark said:
preferable to minimize wire (aka antenna) length when deciding where to locate components? Right now the coil is under the washer reservoir, the ignition box is on the inner right fender, the distributor is at the back of the engine, and the ECU is on the front of the throttle body.
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Yes. But you can also use filtering. Back in the day, with 2 way radios, it was common in some rigs to see coaxial/ feed-through capacitors. I cannot even find a photo. These were generally a physically large cap, all metal, about 2x the diameter of a typical coil radio filter cap, with a stud out each end. But they did not need to be that way. Just putting a cap to ground from a terminal can be just as effective. Capacity is not too critical, but sometimes a lower value is more effective than higher, depending on the type of noise. A high narrow pulse is an example. The old school noise caps in the alternators (generally all makes) and across the + side of the coil, and on Mopars with gauge voltage regulators, across those. The trick is to have the cap fairly close to the noise generator and or at the noise "victim."

Don't dismiss just plain twisting the wires. That is why CAT3, 5 and whatever is "now" wiring is twisted. Also you can use a Faraday shield, which means practically, a shielded cable with ONE end of the wire grounded. You can do the same with cat5 and the phone company used to. Let's say you have a cat 5 with 2 live pairs. You take the remaining, unused terminals, and ground them all together. This makes a Faraday that helps shield the in-use pairs You do NOT want to create a ground loop, causing current to flow ON the shield.
 
67Dart273 said:
Not sure that is really a problem. If you locate the rotor contact so it's in the middle of the curve, you are not talking about much leeway


Yes. But you can also use filtering. Back in the day, with 2 way radios, it was common in some rigs to see coaxial/ feed-through capacitors. I cannot even find a photo. These were generally a physically large cap, all metal, about 2x the diameter of a typical coil radio filter cap, with a stud out each end. But they did not need to be that way. Just putting a cap to ground from a terminal can be just as effective. Capacity is not too critical, but sometimes a lower value is more effective than higher, depending on the type of noise. A high narrow pulse is an example. The old school noise caps in the alternators (generally all makes) and across the + side of the coil, and on Mopars with gauge voltage regulators, across those. The trick is to have the cap fairly close to the noise generator and or at the noise "victim."

Don't dismiss just plain twisting the wires. That is why CAT3, 5 and whatever is "now" wiring is twisted. Also you can use a Faraday shield, which means practically, a shielded cable with ONE end of the wire grounded. You can do the same with cat5 and the phone company used to. Let's say you have a cat 5 with 2 live pairs. You take the remaining, unused terminals, and ground them all together. This makes a Faraday that helps shield the in-use pairs You do NOT want to create a ground loop, causing current to flow ON the shield.
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I have heard the twisting tip for the two wires to the distributor pickup. Those will only be used when I hook up timing control. Initial setup will be just the single RPM feed wire, and that will be shielded and grounded on one end. I have heard of people adding noise filters to tach wires, which is another possibility, but I'm not sure how well it plays with an ECU signal versus a simple tachometer on a dashboard.

Alternator is a brand new Tuff Stuff single wire, no voltage regulator or wiring. Hopefully between shielding for the RPM signal, fresh components, dielectric grease, and proper solder/heat shrink connections, I'll whittle down the chances of running into a major RFI issue.
 
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