833 Transmission won't disengage at stop after 100 miles.

[Duggie]

The input got hot. Either the pilot bushing is too tight or the bell housing needs to be indicated in.

Did you install the disc backwards? As mentioned above, the thick part goes towards the transmission. Or the thin part against the flywheel. Whatever way you want to look at it. The disc will go in either way.

You can use the grease method to get that pilot bushing out.

The pressure plate went in correctly. I flipped the pressure plate around to show the ugliest side.

I'm motivated to replace the pilot bushing at this point just because I'm there. The input shaft looks like it's not had the easiest of times at the bushing. I'll measure the hole in the crankshaft to see if it's sized for a standard transmission pilot bushing. I have a transmission parts layout pic from the overhaul and the input shaft shows some discoloration at the same point. Although the previous owner put fewer miles on the car in twenty years than I put on it in two weeks.

I'll give the grease method one more try, though hammering on the end of a crankshaft gives me the willies!

I've never indicated a bell housing, but I'll research it and get 'er done. There has been enough wonky stuff found on this car, I couldn't blindly trust anything I could verify.

The pressure plate is very obviously engaging crooked. With heavy wear on only one of the three arms, that's pretty obvious. Either the pressure plate cover is bent, or the pressure plate arms are not equidistant heights off the flywheel with the pressure plate bolted down.

I'll torque the pressure plate back down on the flywheel and take the measurements before I talk to Brewer's so I can fully inform them. I agree though that the wear marks show one finger being worn much greater than the other two.

Thanks you guys!

 

[rustycowll69]

The pressure plate went in correctly. I flipped the pressure plate around to show the ugliest side.

I'm motivated to replace the pilot bushing at this point just because I'm there. The input shaft looks like it's not had the easiest of times at the bushing. I'll measure the hole in the crankshaft to see if it's sized for a standard transmission pilot bushing. I have a transmission parts layout pic from the overhaul and the input shaft shows some discoloration at the same point. Although the previous owner put fewer miles on the car in twenty years than I put on it in two weeks.

I'll give the grease method one more try, though hammering on the end of a crankshaft gives me the willies!

I've never indicated a bell housing, but I'll research it and get 'er done. There has been enough wonky stuff found on this car, I couldn't blindly trust anything I could verify.



I'll torque the pressure plate back down on the flywheel and take the measurements before I talk to Brewer's so I can fully inform them. I agree though that the wear marks show one finger being worn much greater than the other two.

Thanks you guys!

I don't know who is recommending pounding on the pilot bushing, but that would be the LAST thing I would ever try.
The tools to pull it, are probably less than $20 online. You might try o'reilly's, they might even rent them for free.
If you still can't find any help, let me know, maybe I can rustle up something. Where in Tacoma are you? maybe I can connect with you.

 

[Duggie]

I don't know who is recommending pounding on the pilot bushing, but that would be the LAST thing I would ever try.
The tools to pull it, are probably less than $20 online. You might try o'reilly's, they might even rent them for free.
If you still can't find any help, let me know, maybe I can rustle up something. Where in Tacoma are you? maybe I can connect with you.

Roughly near the Tacoma Dome, and I'm willing to travel.

 

[rustycowll69]

Roughly near the Tacoma Dome, and I'm willing to travel.

I'm about 1/2 hr away

 

[Duggie]

I'm about 1/2 hr away

Gave it my best shot at not being a pest; Went to Harbor Freight and picked up this to pull the pilot bushing Three-Jaw Pilot Bearing Puller

The jaws will reach 3/4". The pilot bushing is 1" deep plus the inset depth.

I'll PM to see what I can do to borrow the right tool. Thanks!!

 

[Duggie]

Hi this is the right tool for pulling the bearing out and check to make sure the input shaft is square to the crank you can get offset dowels from Brewers hope this helps my Dad was a mechanic and bodyman and left me 7 big tool cabinets of tools and lucky he was a mopar guy all his life.

View attachment 1715623506

View attachment 1715623507

Still trying to locate an input shaft bushing puller. RustyCowll69 offered to clean out his garage to find one, but I hate to be the cause for anyone to do that! I have an inquiry out to see if this will fit the project; https://www.ebay.com/itm/133492542230?ul_noapp=true

I'd never heard of ensuring the input shaft is square to the crank. I lead a sheltered life ... Mine measures out of true by .007". The offset pins are on the order list. THANKS!!

With these two in their correct positions, the inboard lever should be swinging front to back,parallel to the centerline of the vehicle.

I got a preliminary look at the Z bar on this auto to 4 spd conversion. The arm on the throw out linkage side is bent outward by 1/4" (pic) I'm curious as to the proper process to heat and bend the arm straight without weakening the arm. Can I do this with propane?

The possibility of shimming the Z bar over towards the center of the car was also mentioned. It doesn't look like I have a lot of free room where the clutch rod goes through the firewall (pic again).

And lastly, I still don't know if this Z bar is for a '64 /6. I put a tape on it and the measurements look like this;

If anyone has a '64 /6 Z bar laying around, I'd love to hear how yours compares.

 

[67Dart273]

You also want to pay attention to how the Z is located when installed. Remember that when the arms are at 90 to the push rods, they have the most leverage. If somehow the linkage has the Z all laid over to one side, you won't gt the movement you expect

 

[Duggie]

You also want to pay attention to how the Z is located when installed. Remember that when the arms are at 90 to the push rods, they have the most leverage. If somehow the linkage has the Z all laid over to one side, you won't gt the movement you expect

Thanks, I'll look for that once I figure out how to properly bend the one arm back and reinstall the Z bar. If I have the right bar. HA!

 

[AJ/FormS]

Heat? I didn't know I was supposed to heat it... lol.
Take a look at the pin, on the inboard end of the Z-bar, where the adjuster-rod pivots on. If that pin is not at right angles to the direction of adjuster rod travel, it will tend to bind and possibly kick the clip off.
As long as you keep that in mind, you can bend that lever,to get the pushrod to travel in the proper fashion.

If the Z-bar spans the pivots, it should be the right one. Brewer's Performance - Mopar A833 4-Speed Transmission and Component Specialists

 

[rustycowll69]

Still trying to locate an input shaft bushing puller. RustyCowll69 offered to clean out his garage to find one, but I hate to be the cause for anyone to do that! I have an inquiry out to see if this will fit the project; KENT MOORE TOOL J-34011 OUTPUT SHAFT PILOT BEARING REMOVER | eBay

I'd never heard of ensuring the input shaft is square to the crank. I lead a sheltered life ... Mine measures out of true by .007". The offset pins are on the order list. THANKS!!



I got a preliminary look at the Z bar on this auto to 4 spd conversion. The arm on the throw out linkage side is bent outward by 1/4" (pic) I'm curious as to the proper process to heat and bend the arm straight without weakening the arm. Can I do this with propane?
View attachment 1715624641

The possibility of shimming the Z bar over towards the center of the car was also mentioned. It doesn't look like I have a lot of free room where the clutch rod goes through the firewall (pic again).
View attachment 1715624642

And lastly, I still don't know if this Z bar is for a '64 /6. I put a tape on it and the measurements look like this;
View attachment 1715624643 View attachment 1715624644 View attachment 1715624645

If anyone has a '64 /6 Z bar laying around, I'd love to hear how yours compares.

it appears to be the correct z-bar. They are pretty wimpy, so not surprising that the arm is bent away like that. That other z-bar you showed had a gusset strap welded on it, probably for just that reason.

 

[Duggie]

Get a bigger hammer - of course. That was my motto through my 20's, back when my definition of "tight" was when I felt it snap, back it off an 1/8 of a turn.

This morning, I was thinking about adding the strap to stop future bends. I was wondering too about having the arms repositioned to the optimal locations for the swap someone else already did. As long as something else I don't know about, like the bell housing alignment isn't wearing out something that just hasn't failed yet.

The goal is a safe / reliable almost daily driver. If I wanted a garage queen, I would have bought a Corvette.

 

[rustycowll69]

Get a bigger hammer - of course. That was my motto through my 20's, back when my definition of "tight" was when I felt it snap, back it off an 1/8 of a turn.

This morning, I was thinking about adding the strap to stop future bends. I was wondering too about having the arms repositioned to the optimal locations for the swap someone else already did. As long as something else I don't know about, like the bell housing alignment isn't wearing out something that just hasn't failed yet.

The goal is a safe / reliable almost daily driver. If I wanted a garage queen, I would have bought a Corvette.

if you put a gusset on it and/or moving the bell crank arm on the tube, be aware of the wire bail which retains the location of the nylon bearing halves and the tubing, too.

 

[Duggie]

if you put a gusset on it and/or moving the bell crank arm on the tube, be aware of the wire bail which retains the location of the nylon bearing halves and the tubing, too.

I was looking at the wire bail today, wondering if I could gain 1/4" towards the bellhousing by re-drilling the wire bail holes closer to the outboard edge.

I think too that I'm going to cut the brass pilot bushing with a hacksaw blade and chisel it out.

 

[Jeremiah (jd)]

I was looking at the wire bail today, wondering if I could gain 1/4" towards the bellhousing by re-drilling the wire bail holes closer to the outboard edge.

I think too that I'm going to cut the brass pilot bushing with a hacksaw blade and chisel it out.

I have a few questions.

1) When installed with the correct pedal free play, etc. does the cluth fork tilt toward the front of the car? If not we will have a problem.

2) measuring from the flat area on the pressure plate how high or low are the fingers? The answer is usually some where between -.25 to .25 inches. If it is below the flat area in the pressure plate that can be an issue that is fairly eaily to correct.

While you are at it measure the height of each finger with everythung bolted down to ensure they are are within a 1/16" from the others. If the fingers are not even it is time to scrap the pressure plate and disc.

Definitely fix the z bar geometry. If any of the linkage is in a bind that means that all of the linkage is in a bind from pedal to the clutch fork rod.


If you are having issues disengaging the clutch, etc. and it was driven that way it might be time for a new clutch.

Lastly, is the .007 the total runout or half of that number? .007 TIR dies not require any corrective action as the spec is .010 TIR or less

 

[Duggie]

I have a few questions.

1) When installed with the correct pedal free play, etc. does the cluth fork tilt toward the front of the car? If not we will have a problem.

I believe it does. I'll look again when I install the new parts.

2) measuring from the flat area on the pressure plate how high or low are the fingers? The answer is usually some where between -.25 to .25 inches. If it is below the flat area in the pressure plate that can be an issue that is fairly eaily to correct.

Don't understand the reference points. Remember - I'm pretty thick headed.

While you are at it measure the height of each finger with everythung bolted down to ensure they are are within a 1/16" from the others. If the fingers are not even it is time to scrap the pressure plate and disc.

This clutch assembly is toast. I'll measure the new one on assembly though.

Definitely fix the z bar geometry. If any of the linkage is in a bind that means that all of the linkage is in a bind from pedal to the clutch fork rod.

I can dig that!

If you are having issues disengaging the clutch, etc. and it was driven that way it might be time for a new clutch.

Yep. The 'new' clutch is being replaced.

Lastly, is the .007 the total runout or half of that number? .007 TIR dies not require any corrective action as the spec is .010 TIR or less

.007 is total runout. I've read about .007 offset pins. If I can get the offset to near zero, I'll do it just because I can.

Comments inside the quote.

Thanks for the input!

 

[MOPAROFFICIAL]

That is one of those damned "scalloped" pressure plates, which is supposed to allow an oversized disk in a "too small" cover. The 440-6 70 RR I had used one. 10 1/2" pattern cover, scalloped PP and 10.9" (depending on what you read) disk. Mine, I believe, was slightly misaligned bell. In any case I had a lot of problems with the thing releasing "clean." With use, the disk generates "fuzz" on the outer rim of the disk from normal wear. This evidently catches on the scallops and prevents a "clean" release.

Not sure if this is your trouble, but keep it in mind. You might consider tossing the next smaller diameter disk in there.

What size is that disk?

I remember in the early a bodies it was
9 1/2 clutch...then they made a truck pressure plate that would use a 10" disc and still bolt to the small 9 1/2 type flywheel .

 

[rustycowll69]

Comments inside the quote.

Thanks for the input!

I don't want to confuse the issue any more, and I may be wrong, but IIRC, there are two different heights of fulcrums, and two different throw-out arms.

 

[Duggie]

Moved the inboard arm of the Z bar toward the bellhousing and braced it. It occurred to me the arm probably bent because of the bad angle between the Z bar arm and clutch fork. The Z bar arm does clear the exhaust pipe now and the angle looks a lot better. Also used offset alignment pins on the bellhousing to achieve 0.004" runout. Factory Service Manual states a max of 0.008"

 

[KosmicKuda]

I don't know why I didn't see this thread before as I am experiencing the exact same problem. Cannot shift into 1st or reverse with the engine running. Works fine with engine off. My car is a 64 Valiant, 225, 3-on-the-tree, not running when I got it and was last on the road in 1981. I rebuilt the engine and got it running 4 years ago and have put about 10,000 miles on it. I remember the crank bushing looked and measured OK during the rebuild so I didn't change it. I really started to have problems after fun racing it 2 summers ago (18.50) when it wouldn't shift at higher RPM's. I like the originality of the manual 3 speed but the linkage is abysmal so I've collected all the parts to do a 4 speed swap including a 65 3.09 ball and trunnion 833. Hopefully over the winter.
Anyway, sounds like the old pilot bushing is my problem too. First time I ever heard of this and I bought my first Barracuda in 1969. Oh, well, live and learn.

Rustycowll69

I don't know who is recommending pounding on the pilot bushing, but that would be the LAST thing I would ever try.

The way this is supposed to work is you pack bearing/crank cavity with grease, find a close fitting rod that fits the ID, and pound on the rod. It is hydraulic pressure acting on the back surface that forces the bushing out. You do not pound directly on the bearing, just create a piston to develop pressure to pop it out. I never did it but imagine it's like hitting a jelly donut with a hammer.

I have a lot of Chrysler history books and know that Chrysler engineers actually invented sintered bronze bushings back in 1930. It worked so well that a separate company was formed and the brand name chosen was Oilite. Oil is impregnated into the bearing cavities in the manufacturing process and with all due respect to AJ/FormS, grease is not recommended.
Oilite - Wikipedia
EDIT: After posting this yesterday I checked a Factory Service Manual and it does say to put a small amount of grease behind the bushing but not on the input shaft itself. Also a small amount on the OD of the bearing retainer tube. I just know after 40 some years in mechanical engineering that Oilite bushings are self lubricating. Mine is 56 years old and most likely dried up.

@Duggie, sounds like you are well on the way to getting your car running again. Did you ever get your bushing replaced?

 

[Duggie]

I don't know why I didn't see this thread before as I am experiencing the exact same problem. Cannot shift into 1st or reverse with the engine running. Works fine with engine off. My car is a 64 Valiant, 225, 3-on-the-tree, not running when I got it and was last on the road in 1981. I rebuilt the engine and got it running 4 years ago and have put about 10,000 miles on it. I remember the crank bushing looked and measured OK during the rebuild so I didn't change it. I really started to have problems after fun racing it 2 summers ago (18.50) when it wouldn't shift at higher RPM's. I like the originality of the manual 3 speed but the linkage is abysmal so I've collected all the parts to do a 4 speed swap including a 65 3.09 ball and trunnion 833. Hopefully over the winter.
Anyway, sounds like the old pilot bushing is my problem too. First time I ever heard of this and I bought my first Barracuda in 1969. Oh, well, live and learn.

Rustycowll69

The way this is supposed to work is you pack bearing/crank cavity with grease, find a close fitting rod that fits the ID, and pound on the rod. It is hydraulic pressure acting on the back surface that forces the bushing out. You do not pound directly on the bearing, just create a piston to develop pressure to pop it out. I never did it but imagine it's like hitting a jelly donut with a hammer.

I have a lot of Chrysler history books and know that Chrysler engineers actually invented sintered bronze bushings back in 1930. It worked so well that a separate company was formed and the brand name chosen was Oilite. Oil is impregnated into the bearing cavities in the manufacturing process and with all due respect to AJ/FormS, grease is not recommended.
Oilite - Wikipedia

@Duggie, sounds like you are well on the way to getting your car running again. Did you ever get your bushing replaced?

Just got the car back on the ground yesterday and did a test lap around the hood. 3-4 feels really smooth. 1-2 feels like it needs a linkage adjustment. It feels bumpy in the shift knob. It takes 10 X longer to jack the car up to set it on the wheel cribs so I can get under it than it does to turn the shift linkage one turn longer. I bought the wrong 100 year old house, I guess. Back when I was a kid, most all the garages had grease pits in the garage floor that you just parked over the top of.

My old input shaft pilot bushing was adhered to the crankshaft like nobodies' business. I filled the opening with grease and used a 3/4" brass drift to try to remove the old bushing. The vibration on the drift and hammer was like I was pounding on the end of the crankshaft instead of the compressed grease. Not finding a puller that was not a slide hammer, I cut two grooves in the bushing and taped it between the grooves with a cold chisel. That broke a tab out of the bushing about 1/4" wide x 3/8" deep. That was enough to allow the bushing to easily come out with grease and the brass drift. No vibration at all, it just pushed out.

I found two references in the Dodge Technical Service Manual concerning grease at the pilot bushing. One in the CLUTCH chapter, last paragraph of section 4;

and the other in the TRANSMISSION chapter, second paragraph of section 6;

Hopefully I don't go to Hell for scanning a full page from a copy righted manual.


Two of the coolest tricks I used to install the transmission besides borrowing a buddies' transmission jack, was 1) Make two housing alignment pins out of bolts with the heads cut off and a screwdriver slot cut into the ends to put in the bottom of the bell housing, and 2) Ask the little woman to step on the clutch pedal after the transmission was sitting on the alignment pins. Even with the friction plate alignment tool, pressing on the clutch pedal made it sooo much easier!

I've finally given up on cleaning and crimping the old fuse box. Once I figure out the replacement fuse box, and have brake lights again, I'll get to finish adjusting the shift linkage.

 

[rustycowll69]

for adjusting the Hurst shifter on an a-body, use a 1/4"(IIRC) twist drill shank inserted into the holes in the shifter's fwd gear levers to position the 1-2, 3-4 shift levers properly. However, I've always found that the reverse lever never seemed to line up and shift properly, so I adjusted it totally separately from the fwd levers.

 

[Duggie]

for adjusting the Hurst shifter on an a-body, use a 1/4"(IIRC) twist drill shank inserted into the holes in the shifter's fwd gear levers to position the 1-2, 3-4 shift levers properly. However, I've always found that the reverse lever never seemed to line up and shift properly, so I adjusted it totally separately from the fwd levers.

Yep, I found the same with my alignment pin. Reverse needs to be eyeballed.

I did the pin set up after rebuilding the transmission a couple thousand miles ago. I ended up chasing my tail - turning out the 1-2 linkage maybe 4+ turns and the 3-4 out at least 2 turns before it started shifting 'kinda' smooth. I just replaced the new clutch, and old pilot bushing, disassembled, cleaned and lubed the shift gates, and finished reassembling it all again, and it looks like I need to start turning out the 1-2 linkage a turn at a time again.

 

[KosmicKuda]

Good to hear you are driving again! Cruising season is done around here.
Funny, my Z-bar lower arm was hitting the exhaust pipe in exactly the same place as shown in your first pictures. Adjusted with a big hammer. Understandable as it's a larger replacement pipe.

 

[Duggie]

Our seasons in the Pacific Northwest are rain, and a lot of rain. HA! After all, the Washington State flower is mold.

I got ahead of myself when I moved the bellhousing (BH) side of the Z bar (ZB) arm closer to the BH. Seeing the large gap between the end of the ZB and BH, among other factors, had me convinced the auto to manual conversion was a bit funky. Come to find out, the bent arm on the ZB was the total of the bad angle on the ZB arm. Now the gusseted, and relocated ZB arm has created a very slight angle of the clutch adjustment arm towards the BH. I don't know if I'll relocate the arm on the ZB back where it belongs or swap the attachment pin to the other side to straighten up the alignment between the ZB and throw-out bearing arm. I seam to be good at keeping myself busy with re-do work!

 

[6PakBee]

I seam to be good at keeping myself busy with re-do work!

It's just like finding an address in the boonies, sometimes you go down a lot of wrong roads. But if you keep at it, you'll get there. Looks like you are well on your way. I am curious, did you dial in the bell? And if you did, what were the readings on the face and the bore?