Another "Is Fuel Injection a Worthwhile Upgrade?" Question

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yellow rose said:
I start my junk at 15 degrees and I couldn’t tell you the humidity but it’s pretty damn dry here. I don’t even let an EFI car start and move that quickly. When it’s that cold I spend about 30 seconds and head for the gate, which is about 75 yards away. At the gate it will sit and idle just fine.

And that’s on a Strip Dominator. This spring it’s getting a tunnel ram. It will be the same.
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Wet hurts it a lot, this is where the icing happens. But you're basically admitting it won't idle on it's own right away, correct? Moving the carb further away isn't going to help it's manners in this regard. Physics in action. Or alternatively the carb is quite rich always.

If you can't just toss the keys to someone who doesn't know the car and they can operate it it's not really working right. Even stock vehicles struggle at 40 and 80%+ humidity with carbs and today's gas.
 
I'm stupid and almost computer illiterate. I feel more in control of a carb. I also feel I have the greatest chance of fixing anything with a carb and mechanical fuel pump along the road 1000 miles away from home. That's all for now, I have to use my arms and back, more snow to shovel....
 
@yellow rose ...Correct for what type of driving: drags cruising...mileage? How many iterations of timing curves were changed over the years of a slant, like every year it was different? The ability to change X when Y and Z changes is nice to extract the last tenth, ft/lb or MPG. Locked out distributors are nice for racing, vacuum is nice for the street. Have both curves advantages depending on engine demand. You can do this (to an extent, no MAP inputs) with the latest active distributors from MSD as well as adapting a locked out electronic ( ie. lean burn) distributor with Mega-Jolt and Micro-Jolt controllers without the EFI system.
 
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LOLOL!!! And just like that, somebody proved my point

not.jpg
 
yellow rose said:
What happens when the curve is correct? Do you need to change it “on the fly”?

I heard the same type of thing with gear changes with the 8.75 and 9 inch. Mostly just guys repeating things.
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I change my curve when I use e85 vs pump gas and I change it when I add or remove boost. Efi done correctly, and I don’t mean TBI, is almost always worth it. A good stand alone, multi port (Holley terminator or dominator, megasquirt, AEM infinity, etc) is very hard to beat. But they must be installed with a level of detail most people are not willing to do. Also, the incompetence of the tuner is a real thing. The amount of information and available changes that can be made even just in cold start is truly mind boggling. For instance, on my AEM infinity, there are 5 different “trims” (modifiers) for fuel and spark that are active just for CRANKING. 0-500rpm. It’s not for the faint of heart, but every single one I’ve done was well worth the effort.
5C100243-0849-4580-A244-81FA90DAE96F.png


Quick shot of the cranking trims.
 
harrisonm said:
I have come very close to pulling the trigger on a fuel injection unit several times. I have considered the Holley and Edelbrock units. I have decided against it each time because of the multitude of posts both here and other places where people who claim the are competent mechanics have had TROUBLE with them. I understand the potential advantages FI can offer, but what about all of these people with all of these problems?????
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I think we hear more about the problems because people with problems are posting out of frustration or looking for help. Like with anything most don't post to say how great something is. I have the Holley Sniper it it has been great for me. Plug and play. I know there is a lot more than I could do with it but I haven't. No timing control, no tuning, bolt it on and going on 3 years now. That said, I did have a carb and tuned it and it was flawless also. Both have minor advantages/disadvantages but overall I'll stick to EFI. When was the last time a production car came with a carb? Motorcycles, ATV, snowmobiles,etc etc are all going EFI for a reason. Carbs will always have a place and advantages and so will EFI depending on the use.
 
They all went EFI for emissions and reliability. IDK if 2 strokes can use EFI (too dirty exhaust) so carbs it is on lawn tools. Hardly anything 2 stroke is legal in CA for new purchase.
 
goldduster318 said:
I previously had a 360 with magnum heads and a 600 VS holley and it had quite literally the same exact issues. My friend's demon has that same carb on his 71 Demon with an auto and it masks it a lot. It's still not what I'd consider good.

I have some serious doubts about you being able to crank your car at 40F and 80% humidity and then just put it in gear within 10 seconds and have it run perfect, no stumbles, no revving, no nothing. Otherwise it's got to be very stock.
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As to stock?
I have an 11/1, 430hp 367 (by it's trapspeed) with a 750DP that has never had a choke. I only run it from May long weekend to October 10th at the latest.
I only know carbs.
My combo includes a 4-speed (3.09low), with 3.55gears, and the entire top-end is aluminum, with an RPM AIR-GAP, with NO carb heat. And even worse is that the carb gets it's air thru a big ol' hole in the hood. I would have thought Icing would be a problem for me, but I'm with YR, in as much as, I have never since 1999 experienced icing. Additionally she runs ~180psi of cranking cylinder pressure.
I start it up, give it a couple of blips to charge the brake booster,and put her into reverse, back out of the carport and head out.
But I have two secret weapons;
1) I run a fast-burn fuel,lol, namely; 87E10 , and
2) I run a dash-mounted, dial-back, timing retard box with which I can add timing (up to 15*), any time I want...... so I can give the engine, the cold-timing it craves,
just like an EFI system.
At about 1500 rpm, the V-can kicks in with 22* more timing, so you know, the cold-timing could be 40* to 50*, by 1500/10 mph, to 1800/13mph. Furthermore, those are in Neutral numbers. If I take off right, I can pull in all of that timing, just as soon as the car begins moving. Stumbles? Tip-in sags?
fogedabowdit
Now, if I could just remember to dial it out at WOT......
lol.
OK, so, I am not a carb guru. I just try stuff until it gets bad, then back up one or two steps.
For COLD running,
I am depending on whatever fuel gets into the 75cc, small area, aluminum chambers, to be sufficiently agitated by the tight Squish, to be fully mixed and eager to be set alight, lit up, and then continuing to rise in pressure, as the piston goes over the top, and finally, maximum pressure delivered to the crank at just the right time. In this way, my COLD-idle fuel-tune could be pretty lousy and the results could still be pretty daymn good.
But no, I can't drive away quite like I do with my EFI'd DD, but I also don't need to, after all it is an HO 367, with more torque at 2000 rpm than most any NA 4-banger will make at any rpm. But I don't treat my 4- bangerDD like that either.
And I agree with you that the tune for a car with a TC can be pretty lazy below stall, and that laziness is "well-masked".
I have not tuned any EFI systems, so I cannot speak to those. Nor do I want to; carbs are fairly easy for me.
I'm not trying to start a fight, Nor do I wish to negate anything you (golduster) or anyone else has said.
I'm just gonna stick with what I know.

Oh also;
if China, or whoever, EMP bomb's us,
all those EFI cars may be dead in the water, whereas, for as long as I can find gas, my carby'd car will continue to run, with just a swap, to a points Distributor.
 
yellow rose said:
I get it. All carb guys are stupid and EFI guys are brilliant.

IDGAF about your A/F meter or anything else expect what the dyno says, what the time slip says and how it drives.
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On a carb'd car, I installed a simple dancing colored lights, AFR reader: it died. I sent it out for repair. It came back and after a while, it died again.
After that I have never again put a reader on anything else I tuned. Like I said; I just tune till it gets worse, then back up a step, or two.
 
@AJ/FormS
That's an interesting look to adding timing and all, not typically what is done with an EFI system, it's done with enrichment and increased idle speed just like a choke. I understand it's also dry-ish in Alberta as well, I also drive my car well into November and as early as mid March if we've had a good rain to get the salt off the roads.

It's still fiddling you have to do every time if you want it to work. 11:1 will help, I'm down at 9.8:1 and making more power with a smaller engine.

If we have an EMP bomb, driving is the last thing you are going to be worrying about.
 
goldduster318 said:
Wet hurts it a lot, this is where the icing happens. But you're basically admitting it won't idle on it's own right away, correct? Moving the carb further away isn't going to help it's manners in this regard. Physics in action. Or alternatively the carb is quite rich always.

If you can't just toss the keys to someone who doesn't know the car and they can operate it it's not really working right. Even stock vehicles struggle at 40 and 80%+ humidity with carbs and today's gas.
Click to expand...


Yeah, it will idle. Where did you get that? Can I hit the key and go? No. But only an idiot does that.

BTW, I haven’t lived in the desert all my life. I’ve lived where the weather hits sub freezing all the time and NEVER iced a carb.

You’ll have to wait a year for the weather to turn again, but my TR will be no different than the single 4. It won’t ice up either.
 
pishta said:
@yellow rose ...Correct for what type of driving: drags cruising...mileage? How many iterations of timing curves were changed over the years of a slant, like every year it was different? The ability to change X when Y and Z changes is nice to extract the last tenth, ft/lb or MPG. Locked out distributors are nice for racing, vacuum is nice for the street. Have both curves advantages depending on engine demand. You can do this (to an extent, no MAP inputs) with the latest active distributors from MSD as well as adapting a locked out electronic ( ie. lean burn) distributor with Mega-Jolt and Micro-Jolt controllers without the EFI system.
Click to expand...


Do you change curves on your street/strip car from street to strip? I never have, nor will I.
 
TT5.9mag said:
I change my curve when I use e85 vs pump gas and I change it when I add or remove boost. Efi done correctly, and I don’t mean TBI, is almost always worth it. A good stand alone, multi port (Holley terminator or dominator, megasquirt, AEM infinity, etc) is very hard to beat. But they must be installed with a level of detail most people are not willing to do. Also, the incompetence of the tuner is a real thing. The amount of information and available changes that can be made even just in cold start is truly mind boggling. For instance, on my AEM infinity, there are 5 different “trims” (modifiers) for fuel and spark that are active just for CRANKING. 0-500rpm. It’s not for the faint of heart, but every single one I’ve done was well worth the effort.
View attachment 1715660580

Quick shot of the cranking trims.
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Ok, are we talking boost or N/A? Because it’s a different concept. The OP said nothing of boost.
 
dgibby said:
I think we hear more about the problems because people with problems are posting out of frustration or looking for help. Like with anything most don't post to say how great something is. I have the Holley Sniper it it has been great for me. Plug and play. I know there is a lot more than I could do with it but I haven't. No timing control, no tuning, bolt it on and going on 3 years now. That said, I did have a carb and tuned it and it was flawless also. Both have minor advantages/disadvantages but overall I'll stick to EFI. When was the last time a production car came with a carb? Motorcycles, ATV, snowmobiles,etc etc are all going EFI for a reason. Carbs will always have a place and advantages and so will EFI depending on the use.
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They’d still have carbs and flat lifters if it wasn’t for CAFE standards, illogical government interference in auto manufacturing and piss poor tuning and maintenance.
 
I had EFI from Fitech for a few years. I am now in the process of removing it from the car. IMO it seemed to be more of a novelty item as I had problems with the system. Dead batteries, bad fuel pumps, i just got to a point where i decided i wanted to move back to carb to make things simpler. Plus i never saw the performance gains i thought I was going to see.

This is just my opinion, at this stage i prefer to have a car that starts simply than trying to figure out what happened with the settings again.
 
yellow rose said:
Yeah, it will idle. Where did you get that? Can I hit the key and go? No. But only an idiot does that.

BTW, I haven’t lived in the desert all my life. I’ve lived where the weather hits sub freezing all the time and NEVER iced a carb.

You’ll have to wait a year for the weather to turn again, but my TR will be no different than the single 4. It won’t ice up either.
Click to expand...

Millions of people do it every day on cars that last 200k+ miles with only basic maintenance. If you give it 5-10 seconds to get some oil moving, it's good. Not saying you have to floor it but it should be able to move right away if it's a good working fuel system.

Icing also doesn't mean that it stops running, it just generally runs bad. I have physically removed the air cleaner and seen ice on the boosters for myself. The fuel cools the air and when its high in water it condenses. When you are around freezing and there isn't a heat source, the ice can form and really make it run crappy.

yellow rose said:
They’d still have carbs and flat lifters if it wasn’t for CAFE standards, illogical government interference in auto manufacturing and piss poor tuning and maintenance.
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That's one of the more ridiculous statements I've seen. For fuel economy alone they would go EFI, let alone that the computer allows them to get better HP and torque out of the same size, if not smaller engine. Let alone run all the safety features like stability control. Most people don't want to work on their car basically ever. The EFI allows us to go 100k miles without doing anything but changing the oil and the air filter. No washing down the cylinders, and no BS. It can account for changes in the engine and can send someone in the right direction when things go wrong. They also start at 20 below zero with no problem which does happen here also. You also get 400hp pickups that get 20 MPG despite being huge and heavy.

With the exception of NOx emissions, lower emissions is usually a sign of efficiency. NOx would happen with really lean running and EGR which is what a lot of 90s cars did.

I have personally pulled spark plugs from more modern cars with plug gaps over .100" and they just had minor idle issues. The ignition systems are also better. This is another reason I went to coil near plug and LS coils.

I remember being a kid and knowing people who had 80s Chevy pickups, the second they had TBI the engines went from wearing out at 120-130k miles to running for 200k+, despite the fact that it's a crap system in the EFI world. I even personally had an 80s Mopar TBI 318 engine for my duster 15 years ago which had serious miles on it and looked brand new inside, despite being from a totally beat truck.

Roller lifters last longer and make more power also. Even with carbs.

The world moves forward with technology whether we like it or not.
 
I intensely dislike;
ABS and traction control
tiny 4-bangers,
and all the freaking ding-dinging things
I intensely dislike;
steering wheel locks and steering column mounted ignition switches, dash clutter, electric A/C servos, and all the myriad non-standardized connectors.
I intensely dislike the 3 million various types of switches, controls, too many of which are made of crappy plastics that break or decay into ugliness.
I intensely dislike;
I intensely dislike steering wheel mounted anything.
I hate Onstar,GPS, and
I hate big brother forcing chit on me in the name of forward-moving technology.
Every modern-technology car out there, is a rolling testbed of ready-to-fail, at-a-moments-notice, gizmos, that make the car expensive to purchase, expensive just to get thru the warranty period, expensive to keep on the road, and expensive to insure/register, etc. They are nothing but money pits. I'll take an older car any day, and keep a spare engine/trans in bag, and still drive it for waaaaaay less dollars per mile.
Oh wait; I've been doing that since electronic ignition came out, which I do Not intensely dislike. That, and auto transmissions, the alternating current charging systems, crumple-zones, and radial tires, are about the only good things ever to come from forward-moving technology, as pertains to cars; some of which I can live without.
All the rest was to protect someone'sazz, or government meddling.
That's my opinion, and I'm sticking to it.
 
goldduster318 said:
Millions of people do it every day on cars that last 200k+ miles with only basic maintenance. If you give it 5-10 seconds to get some oil moving, it's good. Not saying you have to floor it but it should be able to move right away if it's a good working fuel system.

Icing also doesn't mean that it stops running, it just generally runs bad. I have physically removed the air cleaner and seen ice on the boosters for myself. The fuel cools the air and when its high in water it condenses. When you are around freezing and there isn't a heat source, the ice can form and really make it run crappy.



That's one of the more ridiculous statements I've seen. For fuel economy alone they would go EFI, let alone that the computer allows them to get better HP and torque out of the same size, if not smaller engine. Let alone run all the safety features like stability control. Most people don't want to work on their car basically ever. The EFI allows us to go 100k miles without doing anything but changing the oil and the air filter. No washing down the cylinders, and no BS. It can account for changes in the engine and can send someone in the right direction when things go wrong. They also start at 20 below zero with no problem which does happen here also. You also get 400hp pickups that get 20 MPG despite being huge and heavy.

With the exception of NOx emissions, lower emissions is usually a sign of efficiency. NOx would happen with really lean running and EGR which is what a lot of 90s cars did.

I have personally pulled spark plugs from more modern cars with plug gaps over .100" and they just had minor idle issues. The ignition systems are also better. This is another reason I went to coil near plug and LS coils.

I remember being a kid and knowing people who had 80s Chevy pickups, the second they had TBI the engines went from wearing out at 120-130k miles to running for 200k+, despite the fact that it's a crap system in the EFI world. I even personally had an 80s Mopar TBI 318 engine for my duster 15 years ago which had serious miles on it and looked brand new inside, despite being from a totally beat truck.

Roller lifters last longer and make more power also. Even with carbs.

The world moves forward with technology whether we like it or not.
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I could answer all of this but it’s not worth it. Why you guys have issues with icing is beyond me.

Again, if there were no CAFE standards, EFI would be a useless, needless expense. If I have to say more than that, you’ll never get it.

Roller cams are another needless, useless expense cause by CAFE. And the fact that a government that knows nothing reduced the phosphorus and zinc in the engine oil. That’s the ONLY a reasons why there are roller lifters in mass surface transportation.

You live in a world I wouldn’t want to visit.
 
AJ/FormS said:
I intensely dislike;
ABS and traction control
tiny 4-bangers,
and all the freaking ding-dinging things
I intensely dislike;
steering wheel locks and steering column mounted ignition switches, dash clutter, electric A/C servos, and all the myriad non-standardized connectors.
I intensely dislike the 3 million various types of switches, controls, too many of which are made of crappy plastics that break or decay into ugliness.
I intensely dislike;
I intensely dislike steering wheel mounted anything.
I hate Onstar,GPS, and
I hate big brother forcing chit on me in the name of forward-moving technology.
Every modern-technology car out there, is a rolling testbed of ready-to-fail, at-a-moments-notice, gizmos, that make the car expensive to purchase, expensive just to get thru the warranty period, expensive to keep on the road, and expensive to insure/register, etc. They are nothing but money pits. I'll take an older car any day, and keep a spare engine/trans in bag, and still drive it for waaaaaay less dollars per mile.
Oh wait; I've been doing that since electronic ignition came out, which I do Not intensely dislike. That, and auto transmissions, the alternating current charging systems, crumple-zones, and radial tires, are about the only good things ever to come from forward-moving technology, as pertains to cars; some of which I can live without.
All the rest was to protect someone'sazz, or government meddling.
That's my opinion, and I'm sticking to it.
Click to expand...

Cool story bro. Literally have a friend here who has just recently sold a still running, original engine and transmission 04 Honda Accord with 432k miles, and they have a second 07 with 330k miles. Other than ball joints, brakes, oil changes, tires, one or two CV axles, spark plugs, and some O2 sensors they worked fine for all that time. I doubt you can run your car for under 15 cents per mile in fuel let alone fuel + maintenance but okay.

I have an 04 Colorado that I have owned for 14 years, if you exclude tires and oil changes, I have put a thermostat, 2 O2 sensors, and a water pump in that truck. So I've spent $500 in repairs in 14 years. I only paid $13k for it to begin with and its still worth $5k. And it gets over 20 MPG. It's done everything, drag passes, autocross, trailer towing, winter driving, driving in heat, long trips, overloaded, you name it. My uncle uses an 09 Chevy 2500 HD for his business and its running at 230k miles on the original engine and transmission despite hauling a trailer at 22k lb GVWR often and plowing snow. Only now is the transmission getting tired. It significantly more reliable than his mechanical diesel lower mileage mack dump truck even. The truck has to work to make money.

It's undeniable EFI made cars last longer, use less fuel, will probably make you live longer and heathier due to lower emissions, and the cars in general last longer. Wait until gas is $4.00 a gallon again and that 5 mpg you lost is going to eat a hole in your pocket.

The irony about the connectors is the pins are usually easy to get, they just make the bodies different because the people assembling the car will mess it up if you can physically plug it together.

I also grew up with EFI cars and we quite literally had $1000 cars that worked perfectly fine with EFI and didn't have EFI related failures, it was usually the water pumps and alternators if anything, and wear items like ball joints and brakes.

These old cars are way less reliable, good ones or not. That doesn't mean I don't like them but if I made out the list of all the original style mopar parts that have failed on me that have since been replaced by stuff that hasn't, it would be quite amazing. Worst parts on these cars being the alternators and voltage regulators.

yellow rose said:
I could answer all of this but it’s not worth it. Why you guys have issues with icing is beyond me.

Again, if there were no CAFE standards, EFI would be a useless, needless expense. If I have to say more than that, you’ll never get it.

Roller cams are another needless, useless expense cause by CAFE. And the fact that a government that knows nothing reduced the phosphorus and zinc in the engine oil. That’s the ONLY a reasons why there are roller lifters in mass surface transportation.

You live in a world I wouldn’t want to visit.
Click to expand...

You couldn't be more wrong, you quite literally have no idea how little EFI components cost today for someone buying in bulk like an auto manufacturer. They're not even paying more than $4 per any sensor and $5 per port fuel injector and the computer is under $50. A coil pack system for a 4 cyl is under $25. Precision machining costs money and is needed to make carbs. Then there is adjusting for variation, warranty costs, etc that all factor in.

The market demands better fuel economy, emissions, and it just flat out working in any condition. You'll flat out save the money in fuel directly in the first year of ownership if there was any additional cost to the EFI system vs a carb.

Even Mopar had roller lifter carb 318s. They make more power on a dyno because you can ramp the valves open faster and still have it last.

I actually live in the real world. This is the world you live in, you just don't have your eyes open. Carbs are antiquated items that were necessary in the past, you want to run one on an old car, sweet, but don't tell me that it's the best solution. They can go to the same dust bin the purple shaft cams and BFG Radial T/As need to go in. This sounds like another case of "I don't understand it, so I don't like it so it's crap". I know both types of fuel systems.

Over time things get better and less expensive. What CAFE does now is force car companies to make every vehicle an SUV with flex fuel because that's the way the formula is made. Every time a new technology comes out it takes time to get it right but that always happens if it's going to sustain. Been 35+ years of basic MPFI systems and a lot of those cars still run fine and have most if not all of their original fuel system components in the vehicle, including the computers.
 
goldduster318 said:
Cool story bro. Literally have a friend here who has just recently sold a still running, original engine and transmission 04 Honda Accord with 432k miles, and they have a second 07 with 330k miles. Other than ball joints, brakes, oil changes, tires, one or two CV axles, spark plugs, and some O2 sensors they worked fine for all that time. I doubt you can run your car for under 15 cents per mile in fuel let alone fuel + maintenance but okay.

I have an 04 Colorado that I have owned for 14 years, if you exclude tires and oil changes, I have put a thermostat, 2 O2 sensors, and a water pump in that truck. So I've spent $500 in repairs in 14 years. I only paid $13k for it to begin with and its still worth $5k. And it gets over 20 MPG. It's done everything, drag passes, autocross, trailer towing, winter driving, driving in heat, long trips, overloaded, you name it. My uncle uses an 09 Chevy 2500 HD for his business and its running at 230k miles on the original engine and transmission despite hauling a trailer at 22k lb GVWR often and plowing snow. Only now is the transmission getting tired. It significantly more reliable than his mechanical diesel lower mileage mack dump truck even. The truck has to work to make money.

It's undeniable EFI made cars last longer, use less fuel, will probably make you live longer and heathier due to lower emissions, and the cars in general last longer. Wait until gas is $4.00 a gallon again and that 5 mpg you lost is going to eat a hole in your pocket.

The irony about the connectors is the pins are usually easy to get, they just make the bodies different because the people assembling the car will mess it up if you can physically plug it together.

I also grew up with EFI cars and we quite literally had $1000 cars that worked perfectly fine with EFI and didn't have EFI related failures, it was usually the water pumps and alternators if anything, and wear items like ball joints and brakes.

These old cars are way less reliable, good ones or not. That doesn't mean I don't like them but if I made out the list of all the original style mopar parts that have failed on me that have since been replaced by stuff that hasn't, it would be quite amazing. Worst parts on these cars being the alternators and voltage regulators.



You couldn't be more wrong, you quite literally have no idea how little EFI components cost today for someone buying in bulk like an auto manufacturer. They're not even paying more than $4 per any sensor and $5 per port fuel injector and the computer is under $50. A coil pack system for a 4 cyl is under $25. Precision machining costs money and is needed to make carbs. Then there is adjusting for variation, warranty costs, etc that all factor in.

The market demands better fuel economy, emissions, and it just flat out working in any condition. You'll flat out save the money in fuel directly in the first year of ownership if there was any additional cost to the EFI system vs a carb.

Even Mopar had roller lifter carb 318s. They make more power on a dyno because you can ramp the valves open faster and still have it last.

I actually live in the real world. This is the world you live in, you just don't have your eyes open. Carbs are antiquated items that were necessary in the past, you want to run one on an old car, sweet, but don't tell me that it's the best solution. They can go to the same dust bin the purple shaft cams and BFG Radial T/As need to go in. This sounds like another case of "I don't understand it, so I don't like it so it's crap". I know both types of fuel systems.

Over time things get better and less expensive. What CAFE does now is force car companies to make every vehicle an SUV with flex fuel because that's the way the formula is made. Every time a new technology comes out it takes time to get it right but that always happens if it's going to sustain. Been 35+ years of basic MPFI systems and a lot of those cars still run fine and have most if not all of their original fuel system components in the vehicle, including the computers.
Click to expand...

Yep, your right. You know everything but can’t keep a carb from icing up. Got it.


EFI is the best ever. The auto manufacturers are idiots and need the government to tell them what to do, even though the government never built anything.

If you love EFI it means you love complication and extra **** for nothing. Fuel mileage is only a concern for tree hugging, granola eating fools who think they can save the planet from some bullshit made up story.

If you want to make a carb’d engine last like an EFI engine, take the junk **** moronic self defeating choke off of it. All you need is a fast idle cam so uber important people like you who can’t spare 1 minute because the world will spin off its pins if you don’t get moving can get going. That’s all.


You win.
 
goldduster318 said:
Cool story bro. Literally have a friend here who has just recently sold a still running, original engine and transmission 04 Honda Accord with 432k miles, and they have a second 07 with 330k miles. Other than ball joints, brakes, oil changes, tires, one or two CV axles, spark plugs, and some O2 sensors they worked fine for all that time. I doubt you can run your car for under 15 cents per mile in fuel let alone fuel + maintenance but okay.

I have an 04 Colorado that I have owned for 14 years, if you exclude tires and oil changes, I have put a thermostat, 2 O2 sensors, and a water pump in that truck. So I've spent $500 in repairs in 14 years. I only paid $13k for it to begin with and its still worth $5k. And it gets over 20 MPG. It's done everything, drag passes, autocross, trailer towing, winter driving, driving in heat, long trips, overloaded, you name it. My uncle uses an 09 Chevy 2500 HD for his business and its running at 230k miles on the original engine and transmission despite hauling a trailer at 22k lb GVWR often and plowing snow. Only now is the transmission getting tired. It significantly more reliable than his mechanical diesel lower mileage mack dump truck even. The truck has to work to make money.

It's undeniable EFI made cars last longer, use less fuel, will probably make you live longer and heathier due to lower emissions, and the cars in general last longer. Wait until gas is $4.00 a gallon again and that 5 mpg you lost is going to eat a hole in your pocket.

The irony about the connectors is the pins are usually easy to get, they just make the bodies different because the people assembling the car will mess it up if you can physically plug it together.

I also grew up with EFI cars and we quite literally had $1000 cars that worked perfectly fine with EFI and didn't have EFI related failures, it was usually the water pumps and alternators if anything, and wear items like ball joints and brakes.

These old cars are way less reliable, good ones or not. That doesn't mean I don't like them but if I made out the list of all the original style mopar parts that have failed on me that have since been replaced by stuff that hasn't, it would be quite amazing. Worst parts on these cars being the alternators and voltage regulators.



You couldn't be more wrong, you quite literally have no idea how little EFI components cost today for someone buying in bulk like an auto manufacturer. They're not even paying more than $4 per any sensor and $5 per port fuel injector and the computer is under $50. A coil pack system for a 4 cyl is under $25. Precision machining costs money and is needed to make carbs. Then there is adjusting for variation, warranty costs, etc that all factor in.

The market demands better fuel economy, emissions, and it just flat out working in any condition. You'll flat out save the money in fuel directly in the first year of ownership if there was any additional cost to the EFI system vs a carb.

Even Mopar had roller lifter carb 318s. They make more power on a dyno because you can ramp the valves open faster and still have it last.

I actually live in the real world. This is the world you live in, you just don't have your eyes open. Carbs are antiquated items that were necessary in the past, you want to run one on an old car, sweet, but don't tell me that it's the best solution. They can go to the same dust bin the purple shaft cams and BFG Radial T/As need to go in. This sounds like another case of "I don't understand it, so I don't like it so it's crap". I know both types of fuel systems.

Over time things get better and less expensive. What CAFE does now is force car companies to make every vehicle an SUV with flex fuel because that's the way the formula is made. Every time a new technology comes out it takes time to get it right but that always happens if it's going to sustain. Been 35+ years of basic MPFI systems and a lot of those cars still run fine and have most if not all of their original fuel system components in the vehicle, including the computers.
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BTW, I don’t know where you live (other than a fantasy land) but the wrecking yards are full of junk cars that have your beautiful EFI on it.
 
AJ/FormS said:
I ain't your bro
keep drinking the coolaide
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The coolaide is thinking a carb is superior, I mean they basically are just fancy leaks generally

yellow rose said:
Yep, your right. You know everything but can’t keep a carb from icing up. Got it.


EFI is the best ever. The auto manufacturers are idiots and need the government to tell them what to do, even though the government never built anything.

If you love EFI it means you love complication and extra **** for nothing. Fuel mileage is only a concern for tree hugging, granola eating fools who think they can save the planet from some bullshit made up story.

If you want to make a carb’d engine last like an EFI engine, take the junk **** moronic self defeating choke off of it. All you need is a fast idle cam so uber important people like you who can’t spare 1 minute because the world will spin off its pins if you don’t get moving can get going. That’s all.


You win.
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Yeah, the car still runs like that but it runs like trash, that's why carbs are the best, we all need to hold the brake, clutch and blip the throttle, and have it not start or idle in the cold and damp weather. I mean I just love stuff that has to be constantly messed with when I want to go to the store.

Yep, people love pissing away money to get nothing out of it when they're just commuting to work, sitting in traffic. Even a slant six A-body in good tune struggles to get 20 mpg when you can literally buy a bunch of cars now that get 30 mpg and make 1.5x the HP at the same time and hit 60 4 seconds faster, despite weighing more.

They also love waiting on inferior technology. They also love it when their mechanical fuel pump fails and washes out their oil and wrecks their rings and bearing, or that it has to run richer to not stumble and wear the rings out. The control is worse, you'll have to change the oil more often, you'll put more fuel in the cylinders with the accelerator pump, and it'll go out of tune faster.

Even my snowblower needs that "idiotic moronic choke" to start in the cold and run right when its not warmed up. It's just a way to do fuel enrichment.

yellow rose said:
BTW, I don’t know where you live (other than a fantasy land) but the wrecking yards are full of junk cars that have your beautiful EFI on it.
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Yep, keep looking at what percentage of cars driving around have carbs on them, its Dec/Jan here in MI and its going to be less than 1% of the cars driving around right now. There are barely any carb cars left on the road that are driven often, let alone daily. Most of the carb cars are long crushed. Nobody wanted most of them that weren't cool looking 20 years ago. The amount of cars that went to the wrecking yards due to EFI is about zero. Most of those cars are there due to rust, transmission failure, or just plain being worn out. At the same time its not even uncommon for me to see an 88-91 Chevy Pickup with a TBI even here any time of the year.

Find me an OEM car with a carb that has 400k miles that hasn't been rebuilt. Just find it. Not even hard with EFI.

My first DD had 187k miles on it with MPFI and the car was a 1988 and the car ran flawlessly. The car went to the salvage yard due to rust.
 
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