Another "Is Fuel Injection a Worthwhile Upgrade?" Question

[my68barracuda]

BTW, I don’t know where you live (other than a fantasy land) but the wrecking yards are full of junk cars that have your beautiful EFI on it.

GoldDuster318,, when YR makes comments like that, just let it go, obviously he is troubled, perhaps off his meds,,,
I was giving him some credit earlier when I said he probably knows more about cams than I do, then he makes the comment ,,,,"Roller cams are another needless, useless expense cause by CAFE"
clearly saying that he does not understand the benefits of new technology roller cams.

YR there is a genuine need for the folks that know and keep the spirit of the older technology motors alive. Stay at it. You should continue to focus on what you are comfortable with. Carbs will never go away, there will always be a need for folks like you.
And at the same time leave the FI and roller cam analysis to folks that actually know how to run them and know the benefits they bring.

 

[goldduster318]

GoldDuster318,, when YR makes comments like that, just let it go, obviously he is troubled, perhaps off his meds,,,
I was giving him some credit earlier when I said he probably knows more about cams than I do, then he makes the comment ,,,,"Roller cams are another needless, useless expense cause by CAFE"
clearly saying that he does not understand the benefits of new technology roller cams.

YR there is a genuine need for the folks that know and keep the spirit of the older technology motors alive. Stay at it. You should continue to focus on what you are comfortable with. Carbs will never go away, there will always be a need for folks like you.
And at the same time leave the FI and roller cam analysis to folks that actually know how to run them and know the benefits they bring.

This is why I become a less and less frequent visitor to forums like this, it seems every time I pop in here to give advice on some topic that could benefit someone, I get told that carbs are way superior of that electric fans use the same horsepower as mechanical fans which isn't true either. I've messed with and successfully used both, the problem is that the old "original stuff" is objectively inferior. I like these old cars because they look good and they have some unique quirky stuff I like. Of course naturally people can't accept change/reality or don't understand how things work. Wondering why I bother to come at all anymore when what happens is that you get ganged up on by people who believe it's still 1987. You want to run that, go ahead, but don't try to tell anyone it's superior.

I quite literally made topics on how to do EFI, how to install contour fans, how to install a T56 magnum, lots of brake related info, rewiring the entire car, upgrading to a cheap but better alternator, etc. I've touched everything. I'm even an automotive design engineer, I work on extremely complex stuff, that is both reliable and an improvement for the end user. I wrench, weld, design, machine, you name it, I've done it. I could probably even remotely troubleshoot your furnace or computer. All my stuff works reliably, but my standards on how things need to work are extremely high. I also live in a climate where you literally could get everything from -25 F to 100 F and high humidity.

 

[AndyF]

I have come very close to pulling the trigger on a fuel injection unit several times. I have considered the Holley and Edelbrock units. I have decided against it each time because of the multitude of posts both here and other places where people who claim the are competent mechanics have had TROUBLE with them. I understand the potential advantages FI can offer, but what about all of these people with all of these problems?????

It is a valid concern. The Holley Sniper setup is best bang for the buck EFI system on the market but some people do have problems with it. A lot of it just comes down to experience and knowledge. People who don't know how to program their VCR should not try to do an EFI conversion. People who don't know how to open an attachment in email should not do EFI conversions. But if you are capable of reading instructions and if you know how to find a document inside a folder on a SD card then go for it.

 

[AJ/FormS]

Wondering why I bother to come at all anymore when what happens is that you get ganged up on by people who believe it's still 1987.

Actually
We are stuck in the technology of the 70s, because back then, things were; simpler, easier, satisfying, more fulfilling, soulful.Things could be both brutish and elegant at the same time. There was no boring in HotRodding. It was invigorating, exciting, and challenging, to pull the same trans out three times in a week to see if it could be made to shift just a lil quicker. Swap engines twice a year. Or collect rear chunks to say you got a well-rounded selection. Race-gears in on Friday, Street gears back in on Sunday. Or hiway gears and a small well-sorted 4bbl for those 30mpg runs across the country.
The modern cars have taken all that away from us. We get the personality-less crap that the industry forces on the masses;idiot proof cabins that take weeks and months to become familiar with,and you have to stop the car to change the HVAC settings. They took away our freedom to be individuals, and to be HotRodders.
So we are left with cookie-cutter cars that all you can do is dress them up, and they all begin to look like pimpcars. This is technology?
I say no; this is uniformitarianism.
Every car must have this junk in good working condition, or we will not let you drive it on public roads. It's all for the best. Eat your jello. Drink your Kool-aid. Don't rock the boat. We will tell you what you need. What you want.What is good for you. What you like.
The advent of Communism began with the introduction of the so-called modern technological age, and the near-abolishment of HotRodding.
You just haven't figured that out yet.

 

[my68barracuda]

This is why I become a less and less frequent visitor to forums like this, it seems every time I pop in here to give advice on some topic that could benefit someone, I get told that carbs are way superior of that electric fans use the same horsepower as mechanical fans which isn't true either. I've messed with and successfully used both, the problem is that the old "original stuff" is objectively inferior. I like these old cars because they look good and they have some unique quirky stuff I like. Of course naturally people can't accept change/reality or don't understand how things work. Wondering why I bother to come at all anymore when what happens is that you get ganged up on by people who believe it's still 1987. You want to run that, go ahead, but don't try to tell anyone it's superior.

I quite literally made topics on how to do EFI, how to install contour fans, how to install a T56 magnum, lots of brake related info, rewiring the entire car, upgrading to a cheap but better alternator, etc. I've touched everything. I'm even an automotive design engineer, I work on extremely complex stuff, that is both reliable and an improvement for the end user. I wrench, weld, design, machine, you name it, I've done it. I could probably even remotely troubleshoot your furnace or computer. All my stuff works reliably, but my standards on how things need to work are extremely high. I also live in a climate where you literally could get everything from -25 F to 100 F and high humidity.

 

[my68barracuda]

I did not realize it until you mentioned Contour fans, did not know it was you that did that write up. That is an excellent article. I used that information when I put a Contour fan in my 68 Barracuda.
My advise is, when you get a response from someone that admits they need to “stop the car to adjust the HVAC” don’t take the time to respond back and certainly don’t argue with them, that is what they want. The folks that can appreciate what you are sharing, will.

 

[Kern Dog]

I'm on the fence with aftermarket EFI also. But I look at the fact that all OEM's ditched carbs decades ago and now EFI is the standard fuel delivery system on everything and it works. There is definitely a gap between OEM offerings and aftermarket but I see the state of the art with aftermarket EFI advancing and the vendors getting the application of their systems to the point that there won't be problems.

You do realize that EFI was integrated in new cars primarily for emissions and economy, right?
The big car companies have a LOT more money to support the development of their systems and they are required by Federal law to warranty the emission systems for 5 years. NO aftermarket EFI company is under that obligation so their kits are far simpler and less reliable.

 

[my68barracuda]

You do realize that EFI was integrated in new cars primarily for emissions and economy, right?
The big car companies have a LOT more money to support the development of their systems and they are required by Federal law to warranty the emission systems for 5 years. NO aftermarket EFI company is under that obligation so their kits are far simpler and less reliable.

Interesting comment that FI is only about emissions and fuel economy. Totally ignores the fact that since MPFI has been broadly used in new car production there has been a marked uptick in motor performance, across the board. Everything from 295 hp v6 grocery getters to over 700 hp Hellcat motors have MPFI.
The reliability comment is also just as far off base. My MegaSquirt System uses the exact same sensors and injectors that a major OEM uses and that are under the 5 year warranty requirements. The fuel pump is from a major OEM supplier. Most likely that if I took the time to cross reference the part number it is also used in OEM production.

 

[SLOPAR72]

IMO if you are going EFI you also want to go with an Intank setup and take full advantage of the technology. But it all comes at a cost. Someone who is tried and true in Carbuetors can make someone less than that look silly. And the same can be said for EFI. Both are used and have their place in the Automotive industry.

For me personally I have zero interest now if it isn't EFI. But I enjoy the technology side of it. Opinions vary.....

BTW- put em' on ignore if what they have to say is not of interest to you. It's just that simple.....

JW

 

[goldduster318]

Aesop's fables are fun to read, just saying. Anyone could build a 700 rwhp turbo LS car today that's reliable. The EFI allows it. You'll never swap your rear end gear with a 6-speed manual or an 8 speed auto because you don't need to. You review data and tune in a parking lot or in your living room at night. If you need help, you can send a trace and the tune to a second set of eyes in a different state to look at it in seconds.

You do realize that EFI was integrated in new cars primarily for emissions and economy, right?
The big car companies have a LOT more money to support the development of their systems and they are required by Federal law to warranty the emission systems for 5 years. NO aftermarket EFI company is under that obligation so their kits are far simpler and less reliable.

I'm using 90s GM car sensors since they are the most easily adaptable. Given that a lot of these parts had 20 year runs they are well understood. My fuel injectors are made by Bosch, an OE supplier.

Circuit boards are pretty simple to manufacture and populate.

The only beef I have is that the FiTech controllers use basically stereo headphone jack connectors which really isn't a good choice for automotive applications. If you want that style EFI, get the Holley Sniper.

Most people have problems with these kits because of their fuel systems, or poor wiring.

 

[AJ/FormS]

“stop the car to adjust the HVAC”

glad you found my comment entertaining.

 

[6PakBee]

You do realize that EFI was integrated in new cars primarily for emissions and economy, right?
The big car companies have a LOT more money to support the development of their systems and they are required by Federal law to warranty the emission systems for 5 years. NO aftermarket EFI company is under that obligation so their kits are far simpler and less reliable.

Yes, I realize this. But taking into consideration that many of the aftermarket kits use OEM sensors and injectors, the aftermarket components that they provide consist of the electronics, harness, and enclosure(s). As to the electronics, if the aftermarket was trying to duplicate a system that the OEM's brought out last year, I would agree that it would be simpler and less reliable. But OEM systems have been used for, what, 35 years? In that amount of time if the aftermarket can't produce a reliable alternative to carburetion, it is by their choice.

 

[j par]

This whole conversation makes me want to get dual quad EFI....

 

[AJ/FormS]

I'd be OK with TBIs up there; was kindof my dream a few years ago.

 

[j par]

Personally I like to learn and I know my dual Street Demons inside and out..
Having that kind of infinite carburetor and timing to nobility on the Fly sounds very interesting and I'd like to learn more first-hand...
And yellow saying it's junk is my number one indicator that it's not...

 

[318willrun]

Actually, I have two vehicles set up on FI. One runs really good and the other has to be cranked a bit to start.














'06 Mustang and '01 Ram 2500 . 'Stang needs to be cranked

 

[AndyF]

This whole conversation makes me want to get dual quad EFI....

I tuned a 427 Ford with dual quad throttle bodies a few years back. It was a beast. It was for a street car so pump gas compression and a modest cam, but it still hammered out 700 hp at peak. Very impressive setup.

 

[pishta]

Do you change curves on your street/strip car from street to strip? I never have, nor will I.

Do you run or race with a mechanical or vacuum advance? Race on the weekends get groceries on Monday?? Dyno numbers are not the end all peak of performance if 'performing' is based on the ability to get the vehicle moving in sub zero weather, have it idle at 210F with the A/C on, lug a load up a hill with a 6000 foot elevation change...and still run close to what it did at sea level. Knock sensors? The ability to pull back the timing on the fly when the sensor detects knocking or when you have to use a different grade fuel on the road. How about hop out rate on your advance. Need it all in faster, need to add more at top end? Flexibility is built it without spring or advance pot changes. Interesting that you wont change your advance curve from the street to the strip. Is one advance curve ideal for both? Buying an EFI system will adapt to a wide variety of motors, street or strip. Without setting up your curve to your specific motor (and possibly to its function that night) on a distributor machine, I think your leaving performance on the table, either in ET's or driveabilty, opposite ends of the spectrum. Here is a quote from someone obviously more educated on the matter than me, "...Vacuum advance calibrations are different between stock engines and modified engines, especially if you have a lot of cam and have relatively low manifold vacuum at idle. Most stock vacuum advance cans aren’t fully-deployed until they see about 15” Hg. Manifold vacuum, so those cans don’t work very well on a modified engine; with less than 15” Hg. at a rough idle, the stock can will “dither” in and out in response to the rapidly-changing manifold vacuum, constantly varying the amount of vacuum advance, which creates an unstable idle. Modified engines with more cam that generate less than 15” Hg. of vacuum at idle need a vacuum advance can that’s fully-deployed at least 1”, preferably 2” of vacuum less than idle vacuum level so idle advance is solid and stable.." Just pointing out the fact that different curves suit different motors and all these curves can be had i(or learned) in one system. Time marches on....

 

[j par]

I tuned a 427 Ford with dual quad throttle bodies a few years back. It was a beast. It was for a street car so pump gas compression and a modest cam, but it still hammered out 700 hp at peak. Very impressive setup.
View attachment 1715661294 View attachment 1715661295 View attachment 1715661296

I do like the idea of an infinite tunability as far as air fuel ratio and timing.. I've been browsing today for a system that is also nitrous capable... I do have all the MSD stuff and I know there's a lot of it I wouldn't need but I don't really want to lose my box or distributor if I don't have to... I imagine I would just be able to lock out the distributor and let the computer take over...

 

[TT5.9mag]

Ok, are we talking boost or N/A? Because it’s a different concept. The OP said nothing of boost.

Well at least you didn’t say I was wrong. Lol it’s not about the government, it’s not about emissions, for me. It’s about getting the most enjoyment I can from my old junk, and most people don’t drive their old clapped out hot rods because they are inconvenient once you get beyond their novelty. I want to enjoy them. And the two (ok 3) biggest improvements I’ve made in any old vehicle are, in order of most enjoyable, are;
1. turbos, nuff said.
2. Modern mpfi
3. Overdrive wether auto or manual

 

[j par]

Well at least you didn’t say I was wrong. Lol it’s not about the government, it’s not about emissions, for me. It’s about getting the most enjoyment I can from my old junk, and most people don’t drive their old clapped out hot rods because they are inconvenient once you get beyond their novelty. I want to enjoy them. And the two (ok 3) biggest improvements I’ve made in any old vehicle are, in order of most enjoyable, are;
1. turbos, nuff said.
2. Modern mpfi
3. Overdrive wether auto or manual

Mine was ac... What was I thinking without it...
I only take it out on nice days....

 

[lead69]

Some of the posts in this thread are funny, I think it boils down to are you trying to build a bmw or a old muscle car?. I for one don't spend all the time and money I do to hop in what is essentially a modern car and cruise/hit the strip, why not buy a later mustang and go faster more efficiently cheaper and with less hassle.

I think for those that want a kindig it car fine but all the pro efi arguments made here pertain to gas mileage and cold start/drivability etc., things that are meaningless in my vintage muscle muscle machine. Again if you want that fine but you are starting out on a more costly time consuming path that would be much simpler if you just bought a modern car, I mean rear window defrost and delayed wipers sure are nice for those cold wet mornings.

It would be one thing if someone could legitimately show me a back to back dyno test where efi will make more power than a carb and greatly improve my overall performance/reliably but they cannot. It simply isn't true, all the benefits of efi are related to convenience, longevity etc., but even that's with factory engineered reliable parts (jurys still out on aftermarket kits).

I would think that most enthusiasts in this hobby would agree with these basic statements.
I'm not looking for 100k + miles out of my rod
I don't care about driving away in 20 degree weather in ten seconds.
I'm not looking for the added expense/complexity of efi on my old car, and certainly don't want to try to repair it on the side of the road.

If that's what you want to do with an old car more power to you and I appreciate that, but to come on a old car forum and say efi is a definite upgrade for an older car is just an opinion. For what most of us are trying to achieve efi is not a worth while investment for a weekend machine and will not give my muscle car more performance over a properly done carb in the conditions I drive on the street or track. For that matter it would actually take away from the raw simplicity/ performance I have come to enjoy.

 

[TT5.9mag]

This thread is funny, I think it boils down to are you trying to build a bmw or a old muscle car?. I for one don't spend all the time and money I do to hop in what is essentially a modern car and cruise/hit the strip, why not buy a later mustang and go faster more efficiently cheaper and with less hassle.

I think for those that want a kindig it car fine but all the pro efi arguments made here pertain to gas mileage and cold start/drivability etc., things that are meaningless in my vintage muscle muscle machine. Again if you want that fine but you are starting out on a more costly time consuming path that would be much simpler if you just bought a modern car, I mean rear window defrost and delayed wipers sure are nice for those cold wet mornings.

It would be one thing if someone could legitimately show me a back to back dyno test where efi will make more power than a carb and greatly improve my overall performance/reliably but they cannot. It simply isn't true, all the benefits of efi are related to convenience, longevity etc., but even that's with factory engineered reliable parts (jurys still out on aftermarket kits).

I would think that most enthusiasts in this hobby would agree with these basic statements.
I'm not looking for 100k + miles out of my rod
I don't care about driving away in 20 degree weather in ten seconds.
I'm not looking for the added expense/complexity of efi on my old car, and certainly don't want to try to repair it on the side of the road.

If that's what you want to do with an old car more power to you and I appreciate that, but to come on a old car forum and say efi is a definite upgrade for an older car is just an opinion. For what most of us are trying to achieve efi is not a worth while investment for a weekend machine and will not give my muscle car more performance over a properly done carb in the conditions I drive on the street or track. For that matter it would actually take away from the raw simplicity/ performance I have come to enjoy.

Have you done it? Do you have an old hot rod with a properly tuned multi port fuel injection? If not your opinion that it is not better is based only on your opinion and not fact.

 

[j par]

This thread is funny, I think it boils down to are you trying to build a bmw or a old muscle car?. I for one don't spend all the time and money I do to hop in what is essentially a modern car and cruise/hit the strip, why not buy a later mustang and go faster more efficiently cheaper and with less hassle.

I think for those that want a kindig it car fine but all the pro efi arguments made here pertain to gas mileage and cold start/drivability etc., things that are meaningless in my vintage muscle muscle machine. Again if you want that fine but you are starting out on a more costly time consuming path that would be much simpler if you just bought a modern car, I mean rear window defrost and delayed wipers sure are nice for those cold wet mornings.

It would be one thing if someone could legitimately show me a back to back dyno test where efi will make more power than a carb and greatly improve my overall performance/reliably but they cannot. It simply isn't true, all the benefits of efi are related to convenience, longevity etc., but even that's with factory engineered reliable parts (jurys still out on aftermarket kits).

I would think that most enthusiasts in this hobby would agree with these basic statements.
I'm not looking for 100k + miles out of my rod
I don't care about driving away in 20 degree weather in ten seconds.
I'm not looking for the added expense/complexity of efi on my old car, and certainly don't want to try to repair it on the side of the road.

If that's what you want to do with an old car more power to you and I appreciate that, but to come on a old car forum and say efi is a definite upgrade for an older car is just an opinion. For what most of us are trying to achieve efi is not a worth while investment for a weekend machine and will not give my muscle car more performance over a properly done carb in the conditions I drive on the street or track. For that matter it would actually take away from the raw simplicity/ performance I have come to enjoy.

maybe we can find you some old bias-ply tires so you can really enjoy your nostalgic experience LOL.....
For me I would just do it to learn about it and try to perfect my skills at tuning it and working on it... Just like the entire Nitrous system that I put in and have not used yet... when I cease to learn you'll probably see a duster on Craigslist for sale...

 

[lead69]

Have you done it? Do you have an old hot rod with a properly tuned multi port fuel injection? If not your opinion that it is not better is based only on your opinion and not fact.

If you're thinking was correct then we would have to experience everything first hand for it to be a fact hence there would be no facts except to us lol. The answer is no but I have been around/involved more than enough of it too know. Find me one case where efi made more power than a carb in back to back tests, or better yet explain to me how any of the facts I stated are wrong other than wanting to have the convenience/drivability of a modern car. Not talking about power adders here just n/a.