another turbo slant build thread

[zac_F71]

After this winter and getting my 83 mustang with a 350hp 302 done I will be selling it to fund this build.. with an over all goal of 10 seconds in the 1/4 in mind as well as being a street car and NHRA legal

this is just the engine part of the build the chassis will be getting done first- 6 point cage, XV motorsport SFC's, MP 3" spring relocation kit, new SS springs, CE adj. shocks, front disc brakes, 8 3/4 rear, BBP swap, ect..

Specs/parts list as of 12/011
current:
71 Demon
70 225
Offenhouser 4bbl intake
1" open carb spacer
Holley 390 circle track carb
Hooker 1 piece long tube header
pieced together 2 1/4" exhaust(not nice)
7 1/4" rear out of 73 dart sport (BBP)
4 wheel drum brakes
needs the oil pan drain plug helicoiled

turbo plans:
225 rebuilt STD bore(stock rotating assembly)
deck(s) shaved at a minimum for flat surface
head/main studs
moly rings gaped for boost(LOTS)
Comp turbo hyd. flat tap. cam(a mild cam but better than stock to support 5500 rpms)
Comp valve springs, retainer, keepers/ pushrods
new timing chain (is there a double roller set made for a slant?)
rebuilt 70 head with bowl work
80's vintage non adjustable rockers
offenhouser 4bbl intake
1" phenolic carb spacer
Holley 650 blowthru carb
Spectre carb hat
some sort of aftermarket fuel pump
FPR with boost reference
cast iron OR mild steel custom? manifold(youtube link)
Holset HX35 turbo
3" intercooler piping and intercooler
3" custom down pipe
3" summit exhaust (only using driverside of the kit they have)


let me know what you think? Advice is more than welcome, as well as parts suggestions... will be my first turbo build, no stranger to building motors (built my mustangs 350+hp 302)



[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z97y2Zb3YRQ"]SLANT 6 TURBO MANIFOLD BUILD.wmv - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Cevidicus]

Im very interrested in performing a quite similar build myself. Very similar. I would be happy with 11.00's. I want a toy to blast around in and make short road trips with using as much stock stuff as possible. Including welding a flange onto the stock ex manifold.....

WIll be paying attention to this thread.

 

[805moparkid]

not digging the hyd cam setup but get it if its what you want...

ebay has two double roller chains, rollermaster and JP

if your planning on alot of boost you might want to look into the weisco piston and K1 rods

if its cast flat tops you want there on summit from .030 to .080 over for about 12 bucks ea

 

[Bill Dedman]

After this winter and getting my 83 mustang with a 350hp 302 done I will be selling it to fund this build.. with an over all goal of 10 seconds in the 1/4 in mind as well as being a street car and NHRA legal

turbo plans:
225 rebuilt STD bore(stock rotating assembly)
deck(s) shaved at a minimum for flat surface
head/main studs
moly rings gaped for boost(LOTS)
Comp turbo hyd. flat tap. cam(a mild cam but better than stock to support 5500 rpms)
Comp valve springs, retainer, keepers/ pushrods
new timing chain (is there a double roller set made for a slant?)
rebuilt 70 head with bowl work
80's vintage non adjustable rockers
offenhouser 4bbl intake
1" phenolic carb spacer
Holley 650 blowthru carb
Spectre carb hat
some sort of aftermarket fuel pump
FPR with boost reference
cast iron OR mild steel custom? manifold(youtube link)
Holset HX35 turbo
3" intercooler piping and intercooler
3" custom down pipe
3" summit exhaust (only using driverside of the kit they have)


let me know what you think? Advice is more than welcome, as well as parts suggestions... will be my first turbo build, no stranger to building motors (built my mustangs 350+hp 302)

You, sir, have come to the right place....

Your plan is an excellent one, and there are several turbo slant 6 turbo owners here on FABO that can help you build an exciting, satisfying car, using most of the ideas you have described.

One such car is a '66 Valiant owned by Ryan Peterson, that is shown in this video: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QzUfV8iTpQ"]Turbo Slant Six 10.74 @ 127 mph 7-19-10 - YouTube[/ame]

It goes 127 mph in 10.74 seconds with 1 4bbl and a 727 transmission.

Here's another FABO member's turbocharged slant 6 '70 Dart (somewhat heavier than the Valiant shown in the previous video,) going 11.02 at a little over 120mph into a 15-mile-per-hour headwind...

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAxRmoDgsdY"]Turbo charged Slant 6 11.02 @ 120.56 - YouTube[/ame]

Both of those cars make around 500 flywheel horsepower.

Neither of them employ stroker cranks, roller cams, fuel injection or fuel other than gasoline. The Dart has a 904 T-Flite.

They are my heroes.... :cheers:

I and my partner, are building a copy-cat car, (1964 Valiant 4-door sedan) which we hope will run at least, within a second of these two killers... Talk's cheap... we'll see.rayer:

You asked for advice, but before we can help you very much, we need to know what your goals are for this build, and just how important ultimate performance is to you, because that will determine what kind of advice will be appropriate for your particular situation.

Our '64 car will see very little street use, and will mainly be a play-toy for test and tune day at the local strip. That fact alone dictated a few of our build options. Yours will be affected in the same way.

Regardless of how you want to proceed with this build, I would, however, say this: I am not going to insult your obviously considerable intelligence (demonstrated by your choice of powerplants) by telling you something you already know (i.e. weight/horsepower= performance) but seeing as how you're starting out with NEARLY a clean sheet of paper here, there is this to think about:

Shipping weight on a '71 Demon /6 is 2,845 pounds. I offer this only for comparison purposes; actual weight in most cases will be a couple of hundred pounds more.

Shipping weight on a 1962 Plymouth Valiant /6 2-door sedan is 2,480 pounds.

Shipping weight on a 1964 Plymouth Valiant /6, 2-door sedan is 2,540 pounds.


Shipping weight on a 1963 Dart /6, 2-door sedan /6 is 2,614 pounds.

Going by the old adage that 100 pounds equals a car-length, a 1962 Valiant would beat an identically-powered 1971 Demon a little over 3 and a half carlengths in the quarter mile.

That's a train-length...

Other, lighter cars, would benefit somewhat less, but you can figure that out... It all a matter of degree...

Whether it's worth it to you to give up that considerable amount of performance to keep the Demon, and not replace it with a lighter A-Body chassis is strictly up to you. If you like a car, that can be worth a lot...:cheers:

If you could post your plans for this new project, I am sure there will be a LOT of ideas and helpful information available to you.

Please get back to us with some information as to what you really want, and plan to do with this car, whether it's a street-only car, a strip-only car, a daily driver, a trip car, or whatever.

I'm really excited about it, no matter what your intended use you have planned for it. Thanks for sharing.

This is our '64's motor, so far...

 

[zac_F71]

Hi guys that first video you posted (10.74 66 Val.) is the inspiration for this and there is only one other built slant in MN and it's Procharged (supposedly 500hp and runs 11's) that and I wanna race a couple friends with V8 turbo cars and be able to beat them (331 stroker in a tubbed 64 falcon wagon, 350SB in a 71 Chevelle)

Where I live is mostly highway driving so it will be a mix of both more street than race car (although it will have the look of a race car)

I was planning on starting out at 10PSI and work up to 30MAX would a stock rotating assembly handle that? (stock CR and all) I really don't wanna get a new crank or rods as I plan to have the cylinders honed and the typical machine work done(cam bearings, frost plugs, magging, check line bore(s), hardened seats, 3-5 angle valve job, polish/turn crank, and myself doing some bowl blending before hand)

I already own the car and have owned it for the better part of 20 years it's a west coast car with 90K original miles I will not sell it (only one left- had 68 Charger 440 4 speed, numbers matching 70 Swinger340 Dart and this Demon)

plans for the chassis are:
Mopar Performance (MP) 3" leaf spring relocation kit
MP super stock leafs
possibly Cal-Tracs
adjustable Competition Engineering shocks and at all 4 corners
XV motorsports SFC's
6-10 point cage if higher point it will be custom made at a local shop (TNT race shop)- my dad is also handicapped so it will have swing out door bars
roller rear outer fender lips (after body work is done)
pound inner fenders in (or mini tub if necessary)
275 or 325 MT drag radials (325 if they fit- fingers crossed ahha)
fiberglass race weight hood(gutted hinges), front bumper, lower valance, bumper mounts, possibly front fenders
Summit plastic buckets and harnesses
no rear seat

looking at Holset HX40 turbo's- found a couple cheap on the bay...
I'll be making the turbo manifold what would be the best material? mild steel or?
what's a good Turbo safe cam mechanical or hyd.. REALLY don't matter to me I just like the simple- ness of hydraulic tappets- I like the Comp kits but will likely just sell the kit springs to my uncle and go with custom one's with a higher seat tension (however you measure the #(LB rating of valve springs)
what size intercooler should I look for?
will also likely be doing hardened valve seats
also likely go to -2"-2.5" I/C piping

basically a 10 second "grocery gitter-doner" (would like to long haul to the Mopar nat's and the Hotrod power tour with it)

Thanks Zac

 

[zac_F71]

another question instead of the 650 Holley blowthru carb- could I convert my current 390?

it's a 4150 based circle track carb with mechanical linkage- no choke horn and also a double pumper

 

[RustyRatRod]

Bill........have yall got that thing runnin YET?

 

[Bill Dedman]

I was planning on starting out at 10PSI and work up to 30MAX would a stock rotating assembly handle that? (stock CR and all) I really don't wanna get a new crank or rods as I plan to have the cylinders honed and the typical machine work done(cam bearings, frost plugs, magging, check line bore(s), hardened seats, 3-5 angle valve job, polish/turn crank, and myself doing some bowl blending before hand)

I have no experience with turbocharged slant sixes, but from all I read here on FABO, I don't think it's very safe to run much more than 10 pounds of boost, consistently, with cast pistons and stock rods.

A 10-second, 3,000 pound A-Body is going to need at least, 25 pounds of boost, and the stock early-model forged crank is probably good for tht amount of boost, but pistons and rods will undoubtedly have to be aftermarket (forged.) Wiseco and K-1 are two companies that work together to offer up a set of forged pistons and nominal 7" (198 rods for a 225 motor that work pretty well, I think. Forget using OEM (cast) internals for serious horsepower. With significant boost. It won't work...

Looking at Holset HX40 turbo's- found a couple cheap on the bay...
I'll be making the turbo manifold what would be the best material? mild steel or?
what's a good Turbo safe cam mechanical or hyd.. REALLY don't matter to me I just like the simple- ness of hydraulic tappets-
basically a 10 second "grocery gitter-doner" (would like to long haul to the Mopar nat's and the Hotrod power tour with it)

The nice things about turbocharged slant 6s are in a variety of areas... Here are a few...


1. They LIKE rear axle ratios in the high 2's, like a 2.76:1, so this allows you to install a cheap, plentiful, 8.25" rer end, and not have to pay through the nose for an A-body 8.75" unit. The hiway gear is also the drag racing gear... Go figure, but it works.


2. These approximately 500HP slant six motors don't have to wind up like an 8-day clock to make that kind of power. Ryan and Tom both shift well below 6,000 rpm, and go F-A-S-T... so, valve springs can be reasonable (tension-wise) and your cam will last a long time, hopefully.


3. Turbo engines do not work well with a lot of duration, because the overlap cycle alllows good, pressurized mixture to be blown right out the exhaust valve, so a short duration cam that idles well and has good street manners, makes these Jeckyll/Hyde motors a joy to drive, around town. 210 degrees at .050"-inch lift seems to work well.


4. They are quiet enough not to even NEED a muffler, in many cases...


6. Expensive, high-stall torque converters are not only not necessary, they don't even work well with these motors, because of the slant's incredible mid-range torque.


7. "Used" 4-bbl Offy and Clifford intake manifolds are available for around $200.00, and Holley double pumper carbs can also be found on E-Bay quite reasonable, at times. No need to pay top dollar for a new one. The 600-cfm size seems to work well for both Ryan and Tom, and those are popular sizes. They will have to be modified for blow-thru service.

Lots of good reasons to build a slant 6 turbo motor...:blob:

Having a car that's quick, but doesn't have a V-8, is a novelty, and people pay attention to it.


Good luck, and keep the questions coming!!!

 

[Bill Dedman]

Bill........have yall got that thing runnin YET?

We put a stock induction system and a stock exhaust manifold on it for the purpose of running it in the garage and breaking in the cam.

That is done, but now we have to take it to the body shop for paint.

Then, the new winsdshield has to be installed, and the back window re-installed.. and the dash put back in (out for painting.)

Once that's done, we can re-install the header and intake manifold and build the fuel system and wire the entire car...

Yeah, we're about ready.... LOL!

(I'm the idiot in the white coat...)

:wack:

 

[zac_F71]

I have a 4bbl setup and hooker header on the car at the moment I'll have to looking to converting my 4150 for blow thru more..

slants have factory forged rods.. at least that's what it says in the 68 service manual

I was reading also they have cast pistons so it's looks like I'll be dumping the $500 on pistons

 

[zac_F71]

trying to find different cam manufacturers coming up empty- not a big deal yet the car won't be touched til spring..

tallied up a small parts list $5,757.62 (retail- summit and ebay) not including brakes, a local chassis shop (TNT race shop setting up the MP spring relocation kit), a camshaft, few other little things

I know I can get Weld wheels cheaper on a Mustang forum I'm on to so that will cut $300-$600 off that total..

 

[zac_F71]

here is another question what about the vacuum advance and boost?

 

[Bill Dedman]

here is another question what about the vacuum advance and boost?

Our car is JUST a race car. Vacuum advance only exists for fuel economy, plus, the engine probably runs cooler at cruise with more spark advance than our 18 degrees (total) of mechanical advance would provide. Might be a good idea on a street turbocharged slant 6.

I have no experience with vacuum advance on a boosted engine, but logically, as the throttle opens, the vacuum goes away, and with it, the vacuum advance. So, you'll never see any vacuum advance if there is boost present.

One thing to consider; (enough) boost might rupture your distributor's vacuum diaphragm. The material in those vacuum diaphragms that were intended for use on engines wherein the vacuum signal routed to them was venturi vacuum (as opposed to manifold vacuum) were pretty flimsy... and possibly could rupture when exposed to significant boost through that carb reference vacuum line.

Not good...:angry7:
Tom or Ryan (or CharrlieS) could answer that one a lot better than I can...

I think the K-1 rods are probably stronger than the 198 OEM rods... especially, given their length.

Wiseco and K-1 work very closely together for a piston.ring/rod package for slant 6's. It uses the long 198 rods, provides a low (9:1) compression ratio (perfect for a turbo /6) and comes with a low-drag ring package. All you have to do is file the ring end gaps and install 'em....

If you're gong to try to economize somewhere, in this build, I'd recommend (given the cylinder presures you'll probably be experiencing) cutting corners somewhere else.

Here's the K-1 website URL: http://www.k1technologies.com/Portals/0/Documents/K1Catalog.pdf

No... I don't work there... wish I did!:tongue5:

There are 2 cranks for /6 motors. Forged (early) and cast (late.)

I am not convinced that one is any better than the other. I've personally, never seen a broken cast crank, and they (and the K-1 rods for those cast cranks) are lighter.

Might be a better deal...:blob:

The following is JUST my opinion, but I think a solid lifter cam is a more workable deal on an engine like this. Adjusting the valves on a slant 6 is really easy, and hydraulic lifters have problem that solid lifrers don't have... Try for a duration of about 110/112-degrees at .050"-lift, and a lobe separation angle of 115 degrees. You'll want gross lift in the high /.400"-range... using stock, 1.5:1 rockers. I've tried to get a cam ground with over .500"-lift... can't be done without either roller tappets (no roller cam blanks available... unless you have $1,000.00) and even the Mopar "large size" lifters will dig into the cam due to an excessive angle on the lobe face, in an effort to comply with the small duration/high-lift "recipe."

A set of 1.6 rockers would solve that problem, but they're pricey...

Bullet Cam Co. ground our cam. The jury is still out...

Factoid I find interesting: Turbocharged slant 6's \seem to work their best when they're being "held back," somewhat like a fuel motor (Nitro engine.) That's the reason they like those 2-something rear axle ratios.

That's a fortuitous benefit for 2 reasons: The much-cheaper 8.25" complete rear ends are available in salvage yards everywhere, with ratios in the high 2's,

and,

Having a car that likes a highway gear that also works the best on the drag strip is an unbelieveably good piece of luck! No slogging along on the highway at 60 MPH with a 5.13 gear (4,000 rpm, 26"-tall tire) going to-and-from the strip... 2,700 at 75 MPH is more better....

Just my 2-cents...

 

[zac_F71]

ok I was just wondering about that- I'd just cap it off at the dizzy

mine is the original slant to the car so I'm sure it's forged not to worried about it

how much those rods run?

could I run a external electric fuel pump with the stock tank/sending unit/F-R line? like a Aeromotive A1000? I really don't wanna run braided line from the rear to the front..

In fact one of the first purchases is going to be a new tank, 3/8" sending unit, and 3/8" F-R hard line

there is a 8 3/4" rear complete with new brakes and 3rd member local to me for $100 and a 2.93 sure grip center section also local to me for $175 and have it narrowed and rebuilt by a local shop

 

[Bill Dedman]

ok I was just wondering about that- I'd just cap it off at the dizzy

mine is the original slant to the car so I'm sure it's forged not to worried about it

how much those rods run?

could I run a external electric fuel pump with the stock tank/sending unit/F-R line? like a Aeromotive A1000? I really don't wanna run braided line from the rear to the front..

In fact one of the first purchases is going to be a new tank, 3/8" sending unit, and 3/8" F-R hard line

there is a 8 3/4" rear complete with new brakes and 3rd member local to me for $100 and a 2.93 sure grip center section also local to me for $175 and have it narrowed and rebuilt by a local shop

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

I don't remember how much we paid for those K-1 rods, but I have heard that they have come down in price since we bought ours. Not cheap, but good insurance...

I used push-on hose for my other car's fuel system, and like it a lot. It's what the dirt track guys use (the toughest enviorment going, for a fuel system) and is NHRA approved. The (NHRA) has a list of approved hose.

Here are some pics of my dual fuel (pump gas in the tank; race gas in the fuel cell) system on that car, which can be switched from one to the other in less than a minute. Don't mind the underhood wiring; OSHA is on top of it, and, no one's been electrocuted... yet... :finga:

:wack:

 

[Bill Dedman]

"there is a 8 3/4" rear complete with new brakes and 3rd member local to me for $100 and a 2.93 sure grip center section also local to me for $175 and have it narrowed and rebuilt by a local shop"

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

That sounds like a good deal to me! But, I'll bet you can still put an 8.25" from an Aspen/Volare (plenty strong) in there, for half that... and already have BBP axles and the right gear...

Think about it...

 

[zac_F71]

GEES!! that's a crazy setup I think I'm just gonna run the stock tank and mount a A1000 in the frame right next to the tank?

I'm only gonna run a 3" single exhaust on the driver side so it should work out fine..

 

[zac_F71]

That sounds like a good deal to me!But, I'll bet you can still put an 8.25" in there for half that... and already have BBP axles and the right gear...

Think about it...

I did find 1 8.25 from a 73 duster a guy is parting out but it's still in the car and it's cold here lol

 

[Bill Dedman]

GEES!! that's a crazy setup I think I'm just gonna run the stock tank and mount a A1000 in the frame right next to the tank?

I'm only gonna run a 3" single exhaust on the driver side so it should work out fine..

It IS a bizarre setup, but I wated 2 systems because I have never trusted the reliability of electric fuel pumps and wanted a backup, shoule one fail (it did.) There's a Holley Blue pump under the floor that I use for street (no boost) driving. There is a second that filters everything that comes from either tank. One filter before each pump and one after.... and I STILL got crap in my needle and seat (very fine shards of plastic.)

Go figure...

The 3" exhaust sounds like a good idea!

 

[Bill Dedman]

GEES!! that's a crazy setup I think I'm just gonna run the stock tank and mount a A1000 in the frame right next to the tank?

I'm only gonna run a 3" single exhaust on the driver side so it should work out fine..

It IS a bizarre setup, but I wanted 2 systems because I have never trusted the reliability of electric fuel pumps and wanted a backup, should one fail (and, it did.) There's a Holley Blue pump under the floor that I use for street (no boost) driving. There is a second filter that filters everything that comes from either tank. One filter before each pump and one after.... and I STILL got crap in my needle and seat (very fine shards of plastic.)

Go figure...

The 3" exhaust sounds like a good idea!

 

[zac_F71]

ok a couple friends have me kinda thinking EFI now over a blow throw

also Bill what Turbo are you running? I'm looking at Holset HX40's as well as Master Power T70's...

 

[Bill Dedman]

ok a couple friends have me kinda thinking EFI now over a blow thruyow

also Bill what Turbo are you running? I'm looking at Holset HX40's as well as Master Power T70's...

I am a turbocharger ignoramous. I don't know anything about it except for the following superficial) information:

It is a brand new Turbonetics 67mm 4-bolt flange T-3 or T-4, that was given to us by a friend (no kidding!) who runs an identical turbo on his 3.8-liter Buick Grand National. Our engine is about the same size, so I'm thinking it should be okay. His Buick weighs 3,500 pounds and runs in the high tens. Our car should be about 800 pounds lighter, we hope.rayer:

Sorry I'm so ignorant and don't even know what I have... but, that's me...
:sad:

 

[zac_F71]

I am a turbocharger ignoramous. I don't know anything about it except for the following superficial) information:

It is a brand new Turbonetics 67mm 4-bolt flange T-3 or T-4, that was given to us by a friend (no kidding!) who runs an identical turbo on his 3.8-liter Buick Grand National. Our engine is about the same size, so I'm thinking it should be okay. His Buick weighs 3,500 pounds and runs in the high tens. Our car should be about 800 pounds lighter, we hope.rayer:

Sorry I'm so ignorant and don't even know what I have... but, that's me...
:sad:

it's all good I know enough to know what someone is talking about haha

I'm thinking of doing a Megasquirt2 EFI system with fox Mustang 90mm TB and 42lb injectors looks like a easier setup than a blowthru carb to me plus get more power out of EFI

 

[zac_F71]

what are you doing about turbo feed and return lines?

 

[Bill Dedman]

what are you doing about turbo feed and return lines?

The usual setup I think, is to buy a "tee" fitting and screw it into the female fitting hole where the oil-pressuere sender normally goes. You screw the sender fitting into one of the female "T" fitting receptacles, and get some pre-cut brake line of the appropriate size and screw it into the opposing side of the "T." I put a filter on that line when I did my V-8 car's Vortech system, but I'm not at all sure that's necessary. Ask around; it may be overkill...

The turbo housing will have a half-inch hole on the very bottom of the houising for draining the used oil through a half-inch hose to a fitting on the side of the pan that is located above the top of the oil level.

Do yourself a favor and install that fitting BEFORE you install the pan on the motor (or, in the car.) Believe me, it's much easier that way...

The powers that be recommend punching, rather than drilling that hole n the pan. I punched the one on my Valiant V-8 car and have never had a problem with it. I did put some RTV on the juncture of the pan and fitting.

Good luck!

I am a poor choice of someone to ask about this stuff, because of my obvious lack of ""hands-on" experience. There are lots of folks on FABO who have forgotten more than I know about turbos.... and their installation. True...