Any one interested in the oiling mods I did?

[gregcon]

I'd have to think about that further. I suspect it would be true if you were feeding from both ends with two pumps and two 1/2" provision passages. Not sure. At present I am leaning away from dual feed as there is not a great way to get oil to it.

 

[gregcon]

"You have to remember that as Yellow rose pointed out earlier, that the oil flow path will only flow based on the smallest diameter in the path, that would probably be the crank oil holes."

Without a doubt. If it weren't for that, there'd be no way the oil system could keep up. It's also seen in engines with worn-out bearings...their oil pressure goes down as soon as the bearing start leaking more. The problem for dummies like me is I have no way of knowing how much the leakage is. I'd bet somewhere within Chrysler's engineering files there is plenty of information on that.

 

[Duane]

I'd have to think about that further. I suspect it would be true if you were feeding from both ends with two pumps and two 1/2" provision passages. Not sure. At present I am leaning away from dual feed as there is not a great way to get oil to it.

If you give me your email address in a private message, I can email you a PDFs showing how Sanborn front oils the block. The pictures are self explanatory.

 

[gregcon]

Here is the main cap...I enlarged the oil feed hole from .470" to .531 (17/32). I used a 17/32" reamer to enlarge all of the oil pressure passages from the pump to the galley. I figured 17/32" is 11% bigger than 1/2" so it's like going to 11 lol. This particular cap allowed me to go to 17/32" without getting too close to the edge of the cap. In the first posts made by Guitar Jones, you can see his passage was getting close to the edge (too close IMO). I also offset milled the cap hole to make it align with the block hole, now they align very closely. The tough part about this is you really want to round over the edges of the holes for a smoother transition, but you can't because every bit you remove eats away at the sealing surface.

 

[gregcon]

"If you give me your email address in a private message, I can email you a PDFs showing how Sanborn front oils the block. The pictures are self explanatory."


I'd like to see that, thanks. But to clarify, my concern is how to get the oil out of the pump/block without having to use a remote filter or run a bunch of hoses. Because I want the oil to go through filter, that makes it tricky.

BTW your mailbox is full, won't accept messages

 

[yellow rose]

Assuming your math is correct, and I am not saying it isn't, you may have just partially explained the claimed velocity issue.
Most high performance engine will have opened the bearing clearances, increasing the leakage rates. So if the feeds and the leakage have the ability to out flow the galley supply, the galley oil coming in would always be in a refill mode, so it would always be moving rapidly to try to keep up with the leakage rates.
Having said that, and I may be wrong but your math for the galley feeding 4 bearings where you said the area for the galley was its diameter, to my thinking if you feed from the front, that area should double. Visualize it that there was a solid divider between the front two feeds and the rear as if they were isolated. That has to improve the numbers if I am not mistaken.

The good news is that better oils, blocks, cranks, rods, dampers and more allow for much tighter clearances than 25-30 years ago.


And that helps a bunch. On my aluminum rod high RPM junk I had to start at .0038 on the rods and when the oil pressure started to climb, I know the rods were getting tight. Then I pulled the rods and usually they were at ~.0028-.0030 and I would hone them back to size and run them again.

Those big clearances made oil usage go up. If you didn’t get the clearance up like that, in 20-25 runs they’d grab the crank and spit up.

So less clearance, less viscous oils and I forgot crank scrapers that actually work reduce oil usage a ton, and that makes it easier on everything.

 

[gregcon]

I agree...oils have made tremendous advances. I used to run 20-50 in all my engines, now I have gone to 10-40 or 10-30.

When people talk about how long engines last now, it's always attributed to 'modern machining and QA', and it's usually accompanied by some sort of slur against older engines. The fact is....oils have been far more to thank than any other single factor.

 

[Duane]

"If you give me your email address in a private message, I can email you a PDFs showing how Sanborn front oils the block. The pictures are self explanatory."


I'd like to see that, thanks. But to clarify, my concern is how to get the oil out of the pump/block without having to use a remote filter or run a bunch of hoses. Because I want the oil to go through filter, that makes it tricky.

BTW your mailbox is full, won't accept messages

Inbox clear now

 

[Duane]

I agree...oils have made tremendous advances. I used to run 20-50 in all my engines, now I have gone to 10-40 or 10-30.

When people talk about how long engines last now, it's always attributed to 'modern machining and QA', and it's usually accompanied by some sort of slur against older engines. The fact is....oils have been far more to thank than any other single factor.

I have always heard that the reason for modern engines lasting so long was the advent of fuel injection. The fuel mixtures are now correct and don't ruin the oil.

 

[Shorty Medlock]

Here's Charles Sanborn's oil mods to oil the front of the right side oil gallery. You can use a sandwich adapter from Derale, Moroso or Canton to supply the oil from the filter.

 

[gregcon]

Thanks for sending the .pdf to me Duane.

My thoughts are that with the R3 block, I would need to run the line like Sanborn's mod....there is already a hole at the front of the block. But, either way requires a remote filter and more hoses...not sure I'm up for that. Maybe.

But it is interesting that Sanborn felt a double feed was of benefit. My own take is his added line needs to be bigger, I think it should be as equal as possible to the main feed line. It should be a #10AN size or 1/2" etc. I like the double feed but I think there is merit in sizing both feeds the same.

 

[Krooser]

The line to the front only feeds the #1 main. I'm using a -6AN which is a 3/8" feed...plenty if you ask me.

You only need one line and a sandwich adaptor....easy.

The feed line crossing from the right oil gallery to the left only supplies oil to the lifters on that side...not really needed if running solid lifters.

Your R3 block shouldn't need any extra oil to the front IIRC...that was fixed by Mopar.

 

[gregcon]

The Sanborn mod I have seen (as above) does not feed only #1 as far as I can tell. It appears to be a second pressure feed line for the entire right side galley...all of the mains. A -6AN will not equal 3/8"....it's a lot closer to 5/16". I also see a lot of times when the fitting itself is the restriction even if you use a big hose.

I don't see any real difference in the R3 oiling from a stock block. If it's there, I'm not sure what it is (other than the lifter bores not breaking into the lifter galley). Actually....I wonder if a 59 deg R3 block would still break into the galley; I think the raised 48 degree angle is what allows the lifter bores to stay out of the galley.

 

[yellow rose]

Here's Charles Sanborn's oil mods to oil the front of the right side oil gallery. You can use a sandwich adapter from Derale, Moroso or Canton to supply the oil from the filter.


View attachment 1715564630 View attachment 1715564631

Someone explain this to me, and what it does please. Where is he getting the oil from that goes up to number 1. And what does the crossover accomplish?

Looks like ton of work that doesn’t address leaks and oil flow to the bearings.

 

[gregcon]

It appears he is simply double feeding the right galley, and the second line he added gets its oil from the remote filter.

I also kinda wonder about using a bulkhead fitting to pass through the engine block. His writeup doesn't address this but in my world, that is an oil-seeping affair if you don't machine the block flat on both sides.

 

[yellow rose]

It appears he is simply double feeding the right galley, and the second line he added gets its oil from the remote filter.

I also kinda wonder about using a bulkhead fitting to pass through the engine block. His writeup doesn't address this but in my world, that is an oil-seeping affair if you don't machine the block flat on both sides.

Ok, I can buy that, but that certainly looks to me like Sanborn didn’t think it was a velocity issue either. He is adding oil at the number 2 end of the gallery and has the crossover taking oil from between the 2 and 4 cylinders and putting it back in at between 3 and 5.

Which means he’s blocked the oil feed to the drivers side at the main bearing or someplace and is feeding the drivers side off the crossover.

 

[gregcon]

That is correct, he blocks the left bank feed using a 'freeze plug' driven in from the front of the galley. I'm not sure why he doesn't just plug the feed coming from #1....maybe he doesn't want to disassemble the engine. But if I was drilling holes into the galley, I'd be disassembling the engine anyway.

 

[Shorty Medlock]

The Sanborn mod I have seen (as above) does not feed only #1 as far as I can tell. It appears to be a second pressure feed line for the entire right side galley...all of the mains. A -6AN will not equal 3/8"....it's a lot closer to 5/16". I also see a lot of times when the fitting itself is the restriction even if you use a big hose.

I don't see any real difference in the R3 oiling from a stock block. If it's there, I'm not sure what it is (other than the lifter bores not breaking into the lifter galley). Actually....I wonder if a 59 deg R3 block would still break into the galley; I think the raised 48 degree angle is what allows the lifter bores to stay out of the galley.

AN hose is based on 16th of an inch sizes. -16 is 16/16" or 1" -8 is 8/16" or 1/2" and so on. -6 is 3/8" hose...the fitting IS slightly smaller.

The supply line is fed into the right lifter gallery directly above the #1 main oil feed. Direct enough in my book.

The cross over line is supplying oil from the right lifter gallery to the left lifter gallery. Since the left gallery is blocked at the front of the block the left gallery is dry if you don't use a x-over. Works fine for solid lifters... splash will supply enough oil especially in a race motor. Juice lifter will likely need some oil to work hence the x-over.

I have never owned an R3 but IIRC Sanborn stated you won't need the direct feed to the #1 main if you have an R3 block but I may be wrong. Here's his quote..."Remember we said earlier that we fed the oil(#12 line) to a remote filter? At the filter we split the return to the block. One # 12 line goes back to the rear of the block AND a #8 feed line goes to the front of the block. "X" and "R" blocks have provisions to feed oil from both ends. And for high RPM applications we believe it is necessary."

I think Charles fix is a pretty good way of doing things... he spun these engines to 8500 rpm on dirt tracks... seemed to work pretty good.

 

[gregcon]

If you put a mic on the average -6AN hose, it doesn't get .375". Then, the fittings are often much smaller than .375". There are some exceptions on the hose, if you are using some of the high end XRP hose it's a true 3/8 or even a little bigger. Very few people use that.

If the 2nd feed line comes in right above #1, but #1 is not isolated from the other mains, then it's not a direct feed. It's a shared feed. The 2nd line does offer benefit, but it's not direct feed.

All the front feed does on the R block is prevent you from having to create your own front galley feed on the right side. That is helpful, but it doesn't really affect the system beyond that. Personally, I believe the dual feed will alleviate the various feed issues we have discussed, when combined with restricted lifter bores and cam feeds. By itself, I don't think it would be enough.

All of these various fixes work to make the engine oil better, and it shows in the fact the engines last. IMO, the single fix that makes the big difference is getting the lifters shut off from the galley....each one can leak a lot and there are 16 of them.

 

[Krooser]

If you put a mic on the average -6AN hose, it doesn't get .375". Then, the fittings are often much smaller than .375". There are some exceptions on the hose, if you are using some of the high end XRP hose it's a true 3/8 or even a little bigger. Very few people use that.

If the 2nd feed line comes in right above #1, but #1 is not isolated from the other mains, then it's not a direct feed. It's a shared feed. The 2nd line does offer benefit, but it's not direct feed.

All the front feed does on the R block is prevent you from having to create your own front galley feed on the right side. That is helpful, but it doesn't really affect the system beyond that. Personally, I believe the dual feed will alleviate the various feed issues we have discussed, when combined with restricted lifter bores and cam feeds. By itself, I don't think it would be enough.

All of these various fixes work to make the engine oil better, and it shows in the fact the engines last. IMO, the single fix that makes the big difference is getting the lifters shut off from the galley....each one can leak a lot and there are 16 of them.

Man you are splitting hairs on this AN stuff aren't you? It's been sized this way for 90 years....you can create your own standard I guess. I'm just going by the way the Army and Navy spec'd it before WWII. There are subtle size differences between hose manufacturers but they are all based on the AN standard.

 

[Krooser]

Here's a photo of the bulkhead fitting I'll be using...two gaskets and a dab of sealant should keep it leak free.

I've used these on CAT oil pans to return oil from a remote bypass filter that I had installed....work good.

 

[Duane]

Thanks for sending the .pdf to me Duane.

My thoughts are that with the R3 block, I would need to run the line like Sanborn's mod....there is already a hole at the front of the block. But, either way requires a remote filter and more hoses...not sure I'm up for that. Maybe.

But it is interesting that Sanborn felt a double feed was of benefit. My own take is his added line needs to be bigger, I think it should be as equal as possible to the main feed line. It should be a #10AN size or 1/2" etc. I like the double feed but I think there is merit in sizing both feeds the same.

There is some confusion in these last 2-3 posts about Sanborns mods. If you can, go over to Mopar chat and read his complete mods. On my engine, the line going to the front oil boss is 8an which is 1/2 inch.
The pictures shown are how to front oil a stock block. Sanborn rarely used stock blocks and when he front oiled a race block like an X block or a r block, the feed lines were external directly from the oil filter supply. He shows how he threads the passages that enter and leave the oil filter area.
Second the front oiling is not to oil number one main only.
Sanborn does block the feed passage from number one over to the drivers side galley as he claimed repeated failure of the front rods if you don't.
But the front oiling according to Sanborn was to stop what he called turbulence in the galley. He used that word. So even his theory was that there is distribution issues in the galley. The second oil feed to the front was to send a second supply of oil to disrupt that turbulence and even out the supply to the main bearings.
The pictures shown, show that Sanborn used a bulkhead fitting to bring the supply to the front of a stock block. On a race block, his front feeds were 8an and done externally to the front feed boss that those blocks have cast in.
His supply lines came directly from the oil filter area and those lines go to an external large oil filter using 12an hose. This is how I have done my engine using a nascar race filter with 12an lines and an accumulator. On an X block it is difficult to use a hose larger than 8 an because you have to make hard turn in the fuel pump area to connect to the galley. If you use a motor plate it is even more difficult. I believe that's why that boss was moved to the china wall on the r blocks, easier access.
The crossover line to the drivers side galley was optional as Sanborns racing class required wet lifters, so in this case the crossover was only meant to get some oil over there. Not to help the bottom end oiling like the Atherton crossover.

 

[Duane]

Ok, I can buy that, but that certainly looks to me like Sanborn didn’t think it was a velocity issue either. He is adding oil at the number 2 end of the gallery and has the crossover taking oil from between the 2 and 4 cylinders and putting it back in at between 3 and 5.

Which means he’s blocked the oil feed to the drivers side at the main bearing or someplace and is feeding the drivers side off the crossover.

Sanborn called it a turbulence issue in the galley. That's the word he used. But he said there is a distribution issue. So whether you want to call it velocity or turbulence, he came to the same conclusion.
The stock galley does not oil evenly to all the bearings.

 

[Duane]

It appears he is simply double feeding the right galley, and the second line he added gets its oil from the remote filter.

I also kinda wonder about using a bulkhead fitting to pass through the engine block. His writeup doesn't address this but in my world, that is an oil-seeping affair if you don't machine the block flat on both sides.

What I like about that bulkhead fitting deal is most of the lines are inside the engine. If you have a line blow on an external deal, that oil is under the tires.

 

[Duane]

The line to the front only feeds the #1 main. I'm using a -6AN which is a 3/8" feed...plenty if you ask me.

You only need one line and a sandwich adaptor....easy.

The feed line crossing from the right oil gallery to the left only supplies oil to the lifters on that side...not really needed if running solid lifters.

Your R3 block shouldn't need any extra oil to the front IIRC...that was fixed by Mopar.

What did they fix on the r block. Just the lifters being dry afaik.
From Gregcons pics he has work to do in the bearing saddle area
as there are know counterbores or slots there. Sanborn opened those and the bearings up to at least 1/2 inch to 5/8 long.