Build thread- 73 duster, forged 5.7 w/ PS and AC, 5 spd, big brakes and floater rear

[RealWing]

Are you sure excessive heat near your slave and/or lines is not causing your loss of hydraulic action? You mentioned covering your lines near the exhaust. Wrapping the lines or cylinder will not keep them cool -only trap the heat. Best way to shield against exhaust heat is to use a heat shield between the exhaust and the slave or lines. This will reduce heat radiation and allow cooler air to flow around the slave or lines.
Heatshield Products has many to chose from. I'm going to use this type for my clutch setup. My slave sits right above the header collector and will definitely get cooked without a shield.

 

[Uhcoog1]

I just went out and cleaned up all the junction points on the hydraulic clutch lines (except where it connects to the slave cylinder). I then pumped the clutch sixty (60) times to see if any of the junction points generated any fluid. I didn't find anything. Maybe it is heat related?

The master is 3+ inches from the primaries. The line off the master is 2+ inches from the primaries. The line where it crosses above the exhaust is fairly close - ~1/2" with the heat shielding I put in place. The heat wrap is what I stole from the factory wiring harness.

None of the exhaust is coated or wrapped.

Heat wrap, doubled over the hydraulic line:

Heat wrap in place, clearance from mid-pipe:

 

[blown71duster]

Thanks for all the advice guys!

Blown- what have you found to be the best way to use that tool for bleeding clutches? Suction from bleeder or pressure from remote reservoir or what?
.

I have never ran into a system without a bleeder on the slave. I always use a phoenix and reverse pressure bleed from slave bleeder into clutch master. The hardest one I have ran into is the ford ranger. You have to take the master off and make sure its level because the master points down and traps air.
I found this video and maybe you could do it like this;

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWxpUYiBHKQ"]Bleeding External Clutch Hydraulic Release Systems Without Bleed Screws - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Uhcoog1]

I just drove the car around a bit. Waited until I could barely get the car in reverse, and then parked it. I'll let it completely cool, and then start it up and see if the clutch is 'better'. If it's better, then it's a heat problem. If it's not, then it's an air problem. Ya'll agree with this method? I'll let ya'll know what I find out.

Also, the steering coupler was still leaking on the header and smoking up a storm. I pulled the cap, and I couldn't see any grease in it anymore (though a good bit had run down the side of it, on the header, and the torsion bar). Not sure what I'm going to do about that yet. My first idea is to just keep driving it and see if it stops anytime soon now that there isn't any grease left to drip (or so I think there isn't). Maybe I'll cut out the rubber gasket to rule that out. I guess I could go to a u-joint, but I know E-berg doesn't like that because it takes out the fore-aft play that our steering columns need. Any thoughts on this?

Oh, and it seems I have a rear main seal leak

 

[Joe Dokes]

Subscribed. Looks good so far.

Regards,

Joe Dokes

 

[Uhcoog1]

I have never ran into a system without a bleeder on the slave. I always use a phoenix and reverse pressure bleed from slave bleeder into clutch master. The hardest one I have ran into is the ford ranger. You have to take the master off and make sure its level because the master points down and traps air.
I found this video and maybe you could do it like this;

Bleeding External Clutch Hydraulic Release Systems Without Bleed Screws - YouTube

Thanks for the tip! I can't do it that way right now, but you better believe that's what I'll do when I pull the tranny to fix the rear main seal leak.

I'm also going to measure my pushrod travel and make sure there is no tension on the master when in the full 'up' position. Everything was good when I installed it, but it's worth checking (Keisler instructions note if you don't get full up travel, then the master never 'opens' to the reservoir).

Keisler has a second way to bleed - vacuum on the lid of the reservoir. Might be worth trying. I also wonder if I could get a fork of some sort inbetween the clutch and slave to 'push' the slave back, more or less emptying the slave.

My own idea is to push the pedal to the floor, and then put a vacuum on the one bleeder valve. It should be enough to draw out the fluid and air in the slave cylinder (assuming the slave has air in it).I've got a mightyvac laying around that should do the job nicely. Close the bleeder valve, stick the hose in brake fluid, and open the bleeder valve. Worth a shot, anyway.

 

[Uhcoog1]

Well,
I think I might have found my rear main seal leak problem. It seems I had 2 psi in the crankcase! I had forgotten to cut holes for my breather tubes when I first made the gaskets, so I poked holes in them with my dipstick tube after installed. I have now added a breather to one and hooked up a pan e-vac to the other. After pulling one intake and cutting a proper gasket hole, the gauge showed 0psi. Still need a catch can /air-oil separator for the pan e-vac side.

Also, I checked out the clutch once everything was cool. Pretty much the same. So it's definitely an air thing and not a heat thing (y'all agree?). Nothing else was done last night.

I also trimmed the bell housing while under the car. After re-doing the exhaust,
This was the low point by about an inch, so that's what I cut off. It was dragging on my garage lip (just barely). Prior to redoing the exhaust, I couldn't even get back in the garage (backing in). I should have 4-4.5" at all points now, and 5"+ at the oil pan.

 

[Joe Dokes]

It's a good thing you've taken it slow in programming the EFI, without venting the engine, one good throttle romp and you'd have blown every seal on the motor.

Valuable lesson here for everyone. Take your time, double check, solve problems, and then stomp on the go pedal.

Regards,

Joe Dokes

 

[Uhcoog1]

It's a good thing you've taken it slow in programming the EFI, without venting the engine, one good throttle romp and you'd have blown every seal on the motor.

Valuable lesson here for everyone. Take your time, double check, solve problems, and then stomp on the go pedal.

Regards,

Joe Dokes

I noticed it when I tried to add oil the first time just after the first start. Most of the oil filling was done with an accusump, 2.5 quarts at a time!

I've leaned into it a little since then, and oil residue everywhere told me something still wasn't right. That's when I broke out the gauge and noticed 2 psi even with the vented breather.

 

[Rat Patrol]

G'day Wade

I have a two -8 vent hoses to a puke tank and breather.

I run one line from each valve cover....do you reckon thats enough to vent the crankcase?

 

[Uhcoog1]

G'day Wade

I have a two -8 vent hoses to a puke tank and breather.

I run one line from each valve cover....do you reckon thats enough to vent the crankcase?

Yes, that sounds fine!

The root of my problem was the gasket issue- The holes I poked were way too small! Once I cut the gasket, everything was good to go with two 3/8" hoses (I think one with a small breather would have probably sufficed). Do you have a vacuum port you could use for EGR?

I ended up cutting both gaskets, running one 3/8" tube to a small cheapo filter, and the other to a catch can with a pan e-vac pulling on it. I am very impressed with the pan evac- pulls 1 in/hg at idle, and the gauge touched 4+ in/hg when free revving. When hooked up through the catch can to the motor and the gauge on the far port, i had a 0.5 in/hg vacuum at idle. I'm very pleased! Though, it might be pulling too much as I probably pulled a cup of oil in about 100 miles of driving yesterday! Though, it's all black oil, so it's probably better that it's out.

Update on clutch issues:
I re-routed the clutch line and re-did / tightened all connections. Then, I bled the clutch a few different ways. First, I hooked a clear line with a 90 degree fitting (mityvac rubber fitting) to the bleeder screw (angled so the fitting was the lowest point). I ran the clear hose all the way up to the reservoir. I started by only opening the bleeder screw when pushing the pedal to 'fill' the clear hose. once filled, I left the bleeder open and just worked the pedal for over an hour. I then closed the bleeder, and went back to only opening the bleeder valve when pushing the pedal. Then I would 'pump up' the pedal 20 times, hold it down, and open the bleeder valve. After all that I closed the bleeder, drilled a slightly larger hole in the reservoir lid and put it on, and pulled a 18 in/hg vacuum (mightyvac) on the system through the bleeder hole. Left it overnight, and it was still 18 in/hg in the morning. Bled it a few more times conventionally (open with pedal push, close at bottom). After all that, the clutch worked better yesterday for the 100 miles I drove, though I did have fade at times. I stopped at the auto parts store and had a lot more pedal when I came back out, so I definitely think heat is playing a factor. I got caught in stop and go traffic yesterday, and the clutch would not 'pump back up' hardly at all during that time.

I'm going to see what I can do with some 2000* heat shielding today.

 

[Uhcoog1]

Quick update-

I put heat shielding on a strip of aluminum that I bent to match the shape of my clutch line, and that helped significantly! I got a little pedal loss when driving slow, but it came right back on the freeway. Looks like the majority of my hydraulic clutch problem was heat related.

And now for the fun part. I'm broken down in the horse track parking lot, and I think I might have fried the megasquirt computer. I came up here to do some skidpad and braking tests with the iPhone accelerometer app, and at some point I knocked over the battery and pinched a 12v power wire against a body seam (battery in trunk). I don't have my laptop, so I can't fully diagnose my issue, though the fuel pump relay ground isn't activating when the key is on (one of the computer functions). Tow truck should be here soon.

I can't be too mad. Here are my results!

I've got a small amount of understeer and my rear brakes lock up early right now. As you can see, I'm not far off though!

 

[Buschi340]

fancy app! Is it for free?

 

[Uhcoog1]

G-tac free is the name of the app! It's a good way to find the max peak g's pulled

 

[Joe Dokes]

Those number look pretty impressive. I didn't think you could get an A-Body to pull 1-G. Sorry to hear about the MS3, hopefully it is a simple and CHEAP problem to solve.

Hopefully you only blew the 3 amp power fuse to the MS unit. You did fuse protect the computer, didn't you? ;)

I notice the app has a 1/4 mile calculator, wonder how accurate. Let's see some of those numbers.

Noticed in reading through the thread that you're running 275 40 18, how well do they fit up front?

Regards,

Joe Dokes

 

[Uhcoog1]

Those number look pretty impressive. I didn't think you could get an A-Body to pull 1-G. Sorry to hear about the MS3, hopefully it is a simple and CHEAP problem to solve.

Hopefully you only blew the 3 amp power fuse to the MS unit. You did fuse protect the computer, didn't you? ;)

I notice the app has a 1/4 mile calculator, wonder how accurate. Let's see some of those numbers.

Noticed in reading through the thread that you're running 275 40 18, how well do they fit up front?

Regards,

Joe Dokes

I didn't blow the fuse to the Megasquirt (had it on a 5A fuse- prob need to go to a 3A fuse!). I've been emailing with Matt at DIYautotune today. He had me pull the box apart and check a bunch of things with my multimeter. I've got 12v just about everywhere I'm supposed to (one is 11v instead of 12v), but I don't have 5v anywhere I'm supposed to! (mostly 1.2v). DIYautotune is helping me troubleshoot. I'll update ya'll once fixed to let you know how it went.

I'll also say this- for those who are considering building their megasquirt - go for it! Doesn't look too bad.

Regarding the 1G - that app just registers the max value hit, not a constant. I need to get it on a true 200 ft skidpad and time it so I have more reliable numbers. Regardless, I'm pleased with the direction it's headed. I never felt out of control on the skidpad, just had more understeer the more I pushed the go pedal. I thought it would eventually swing the rear out with more gas, but it did not.

The 275/40/18's are a little big up front, that's for sure. They're mounted on 18x9.5 wheels with 7.2" of backspacing (the wheels go around the tie rod - less than 1/8" clearance). I've lost turning radius as well, as the inside tire will rub on the frame rail prior to full lock (and the outside will rub on the upper fender about the same time). The tire contacts the frame rail at 1.5 turns from center. I try to keep my steering input to 1 turn in each direction for driving, but will go a little further for parking lot maneuvers.

The biggest rubbing area is the back of the front wheelwell. It rubs/cuts the tire about 1/2 turn or less. I trimmed it as much as I was comfortable and then adjusted the strut rods to pull the tire forward a bit. I now clear the 275/40/18 under pretty much all driving conditions, including the skidpad test I did yesterday. Time to put the nice tires on!

My 'nice' tires are actually 265/40/18. This particular tire has the same tread width, but is .3" shorter. Michelin Pilot Super Sports.

I'm up to 447 miles. Trying to get the full 500 miles for clutch break in before I really push the car. Don't worry, I'll dyno the car and take it to the track (on street tires) as soon as I can. This car will not wear drag slicks with the current axles and center chunk, though (nascar center, lightened gears, Roush said do not throw slicks at it).

I have 5 gallons of 104 octane unleaded waiting for me to get everything broken in. I plan to do some tuning on 104 octane while using the knock headphones, and then start over with 93 octane, pull timing, and slowly advance timing listening for new noises that were not there when using 104.

I wonder if now would be a good time to put the knock module in the megasquirt? hmm

 

[Joe Dokes]

Thanks for the reply.

I built my own MS3. I encourage anyone on the fence to give it a try. Soldering is pretty darn easy. I started by buying the JimStim and the JimStimX, these boards allow you to fully test your MS before you put it in the car. I bought the JimStim and JimStimX as kits and put them together first. This helped me build the confidence to build my own Megasquirt. FYI, the JimStim has a built-in self test, so you can test the tester. Pretty neat.

It took me about 4-8 hours to build the MS, but saved me close to $200.00, with the added benefit of learning some of the fundamentals of how MS works. Being able to fully test bench the MS when finished was an added bonus.

Your wheel and tire combo looks really nice. I think I'm going to run 245 40 18 in the front and a 335 30 18 in the rear. Although the rear tires are a lower profile 30 vs 40 they have a very similar sidewall height so it should look okay. The fronts will be 25.7" tall while the rears will be 26.0" tall. In order to fit a 335 tire I will be mini-tubbing the car.

As far as knock sensor. I haven't been hanging out over at the MS forums for a while, but last time I was there it seamed that Knock was still in beta. If its out of beta and they have clear instructions for testing it might well be worth it. That way you could enable knock sensing and get "free" HP just by dumping in some 104 octane fuel.

Keep us posted.

Regards,

Joe Dokes

 

[Uhcoog1]

As far as knock sensor. I haven't been hanging out over at the MS forums for a while, but last time I was there it seamed that Knock was still in beta. If its out of beta and they have clear instructions for testing it might well be worth it. That way you could enable knock sensing and get "free" HP just by dumping in some 104 octane fuel.

Keep us posted.

Regards,

Joe Dokes

I don't know what phase it is in, but they have some good pages on it. I do know I'll have to do a decent bit of work in tunerstudio to get it right.

I don't plan on depending on knock retard ever. I see it more as a tuning aid. Hopefully my motor isn't knock limited, but if it is, then the knock module will be a 2nd confirmation of that (secondary to hearing it with knock headphones). If it is knock limited, I'll consider two tunes - one specific for 93, and one specific for more.

 

[SRT_DSTRHOLC]

A few more

Mark VII fan trimmed ~1/2" mounted to my 4" radiator (barely fits- glad the hemi leaves lots of room):

Huge oil cooler with tabs I made:

Front brakes:

clearance with the 18's vs tie rod and caliper - tight! BTW- it takes 18's to run whatever backspace you want (17's hit the tie rod):

What offset do you use on the front and rear?

 

[Uhcoog1]

My set up will NOT work without a wider rear with leaf offset brackets and reduced steering radius.

I'm running a square set up. 18x9.5 with 45mm offset; that's about 7.2" back spacing. The front hits the frame rail after 1.5 turns, and rubs the fender before that. One turn from center has no rubbing, and that's more than enough for all driving aside from Parking lot maneuvers.

The rear end is 60.5" wide with 1/2" offset brackets. I've gotten a little rubbing over huge bumps, but otherwise I'm good.

265/40/18 or 275/40/18 on all four. I've run both.

 

[SRT_DSTRHOLC]

My set up will NOT work without a wider rear with leaf offset brackets and reduced steering radius.

I'm running a square set up. 18x9.5 with 45mm offset; that's about 7.2" back spacing. The front hits the frame rail after 1.5 turns, and rubs the fender before that. One turn from center has no rubbing, and that's more than enough for all driving aside from Parking lot maneuvers.

The rear end is 60.5" wide with 1/2" offset brackets. I've gotten a little rubbing over huge bumps, but otherwise I'm good.

265/40/18 or 275/40/18 on all four. I've run both.

With 9.5 in the front would I have to run that offset or can I run less? In the rear I have a B body rear, so I was planning on running 18x10.5 with 15mm offset and move springs all the way in

 

[Uhcoog1]

It depends on how low you sit the car. If you don't drop it as low as I did, then you can get by with less offset.

I'm guessing by your 18x10.5 in the rear, you're gonna have to sit the car pretty high to keep it from rubbing. Depending on what B body rear you have, an 18x10.5 with 15mm offset is going to sit ~1.5" further out than where my tires currently sit. In other words, you're gonna rub the outer fender well in the back when you hit bumps.

 

[SRT_DSTRHOLC]

It depends on how low you sit the car. If you don't drop it as low as I did, then you can get by with less offset.

I'm guessing by your 18x10.5 in the rear, you're gonna have to sit the car pretty high to keep it from rubbing. Depending on what B body rear you have, an 18x10.5 with 15mm offset is going to sit ~1.5" further out than where my tires currently sit. In other words, you're gonna rub the outer fender well in the back when you hit bumps.

I believe I have an earlier B body. Not as wide as yours for sure. The 10.5 go up to +22 offest. I don't have my car or I could measure. I will also be moving the springs in, but I am trying to figure out so I can nail down the wheel I want. Your rear is about 3.5in wider per side. Mine is only 1.5 at most wider on each side.

 

[Uhcoog1]

My rear is 60.5" wide. A body factory is 57 1/8.

 

[SRT_DSTRHOLC]

My rear is 60.5" wide. A body factory is 57 1/8.

I was talking flange to flange sorry. Mine is either 58-60 also. I will have to measure. I think mine is only 1in wider each side. I want to say mine is a 63 for some reason