Butters "Winter Upgrades". . Starting a Little Early

[Map63Vette]

Nice. What about with the 3.27 gear?

As I recall, the issue with the 8HP70 with a deeper gear in the Challengers was the motor redlined too fast for the trans and it hit the rev limiter in 1st. But that might have been with a 3.91 6M gear, too. I don't remember anyone talking like it was shifting too soon driving around normally.

This sounds familiar to me with some of the Challengers my dad has had. I don't remember the exact year, but I want to say he had a 2013 5.7 and he now has a 2016 (I think, maybe newer) 6.4 Scat Pak. Both manuals, but I think they both hit the top end of first way too fast to be useful. You didn't even get time to see a shift light and I'm not sure the traction control could tame it in time. Maybe different if you had really sticky tires that could load it up harder though.

 

[DionR]

This sounds familiar to me with some of the Challengers my dad has had. I don't remember the exact year, but I want to say he had a 2013 5.7 and he now has a 2016 (I think, maybe newer) 6.4 Scat Pak. Both manuals, but I think they both hit the top end of first way too fast to be useful. You didn't even get time to see a shift light and I'm not sure the traction control could tame it in time. Maybe different if you had really sticky tires that could load it up harder though.

I had a 2015 R/T 6M and I didn't have a problem with 1st that I remembered. It was fast, but no real traction issues unless I really got on it and kind of dumped the clutch.

I've even been planning to set my '73 up with functionally the same gearing. Bought my T56 Magnum with the same ratios and depending on the tire I run (275/40R18 or 275/35R18) I will run either a 3.73 or a 3.55 and end up matching almost perfectly.

 

[Map63Vette]

Gear ratios were one reason I went with the T56 when I did my swap. I liked the ratio spreads on my old 833 4 speed and a lot of the other modern options I was looking at had really weird spreads to me. Either stuff like a really short first gear (something silly like 6:1 that wouldn't even make it across an intersection before needing to shift followed up by a 2:1 second or something like that), or very little difference between some gears and inconsistent rpm drops. I was looking at stuff like the TKO, T5, T56, Passon 5 speed, etc (this was also 10+ years ago). I also specifically wanted the Viper T56 because I wanted the 0.5:1 6th gear. That was a problem with a lot of the other overdrive transmissions as well, the top gear was barely even an overdrive. I think some weren't much more than 0.96:1 or 0.85:1 or something like that. Not enough to make a difference in my book. The Viper spec T56 was basically an 833 with 2 extra gears and had really nice consistent rpm drops between each gear. With autos and a lot more gears to play with I don't think the ratios are quite as easy to compare. With a manual I didn't want to be shifting back and forth all the time trying to find which gear I wanted.

 

[Dantra]

I kind of like the 2.73 for the strip, should cross the line at the top of third and save a shift over the 3.08 gear. But the 3.08 would probably be better for autocross assuming it is held in 2nd gear. But I am just guessing on both.

Either way, I think it comes down to what is available. If the 2.73 isn't available then it is kind of a mute point.

My last trap speed was 113 and I have to suspect that's going to change.. It's gonna hit 4th, I'm sure.

If I have to find a set of used 2.73s, it's not that big of a deal.

Nice. What about with the 3.27 gear?

As I recall, the issue with the 8HP70 with a deeper gear in the Challengers was the motor redlined too fast for the trans and it hit the rev limiter in 1st. But that might have been with a 3.91 6M gear, too. I don't remember anyone talking like it was shifting too soon driving around normally.

This is my fear.. I'm wondering what can be done with torque management by my tuner

I think the main problem with deeper gears is going to be traction. The stock 6.4 could already blow tires off a dart, with this new beast I think the higher gearing will help make it more controllable. Just spitballing here. I only have 3 speeds currently and I already know traction will be a huge issue on the autocross.

When I had the 904 in, my 1st gear was a little boggy with 3.27s... I didn't spin a tire at all on launch with street tires and I just held it in first at Moparty. It wasn't the good 904 tho.. and it was wounded.

 

[DionR]

A 2.73 vs a 3.27 isn't as bad as going from a 3.06 to a 3.91 like the guy in the Challenger or Charger did. That's only a 20% jump compared to a 28% jump.

My guess is that a change in shift rpm for 1st gear would be enough to make it work.

I will see if I can the original post.

 

[Dantra]

A 2.73 vs a 3.27 isn't as bad as going from a 3.06 to a 3.91 like the guy in the Challenger or Charger did. That's only a 20% jump compared to a 28% jump.

My guess is that a change in shift rpm for 1st gear would be enough to make it work.

I will see if I can the original post.

I called my guy at FRP.. He said the 3.08s will work good. Ryan is able to massage the torque management and really make it work without completely blowing the tires off all the time. His (Isaiah) personal truck has 3.91s/28" tall tires, in the 11s and not slipping the tire at all with radials... launching in 1st. It's all in the tune

 

[DionR]

For what it's worth, a 3.27 with a 26" tire still isn't as bad as a 3.90 with a 28.68" tire. You would have to run a 3.55 gear to equal it when factored for tire height.

I bet you would be fine with the 3.27 gear, but I would guess a 3.08 would be better.

 

[Dantra]

For what it's worth, a 3.27 with a 26" tire still isn't as bad as a 3.90 with a 28.68" tire. You would have to run a 3.55 gear to equal it when factored for tire height.

I bet you would be fine with the 3.27 gear, but I would guess a 3.08 would be better.

That crossed my mind too.. I've been wanting new gears anyway. These have a slight howl to them when either on the gas or off. Typical Yukon gear, it seems. After talking with a few Ford guys, FoMoCo is the better gear for the 8.8.

 

[Dantra]

Due for an update...
Had some time off and did very little with the car. Between spending time with family, a little shopping trip with my daughter, holiday stuff and some stuff around the house, oh.. And covid, I wasn't in the garage much.

Deleted the column shifter. Took pieces of the original indicator housing and epoxied them into the voids. Smeared on some bondo and added paint. Shortened the column housing and relocated the shaft bearing.

Added some sound deadener to the floor. Really makes a difference when you tap on the side done, compared to the side that isn't. Really hoping it'll help with heat too. Using the thicker foam type, up inside the dash, in place of the fiberglass. The floor is done with 80 mill "canopus" brand in front and 50 mill in rear. I'll add pics of rear later. Occurred to me last night, that I should've left a piece out, where the shifter will mount. Just need weld some studs in..

Still waiting on my modded shifter. Blake has been swamped and with holidays etc. I get it. He wanted to do a video of how to mod a 8hp shifter to appear like a stock torqueflight shifter,. So I sent him what I had.

Pushrods should be here today. So this weekend, I should be able to button the motor up and think about my next move. I need to clean up the bay a bit, plug some holes and do a little touch up.. But I'm close to slapping it in.

I also broke down and ordered the usct pedal bracket.. I deserve a treat.

And a Pic of our idiot dog for a laugh. Every damn night, this is how this guy sleeps.

 

[Map63Vette]

Oh wow, you went whole hog on the deadener. I've been thinking about adding some of the butyl strips to my car to kill the resonance now that it's a primary driver and seeing a lot more road time. I have some foil backed jute type insulation under my carpet now, but that's it. Thought about doing the Dynamat type strips on some of the larger "flat" sections to see if it helps with noise any. The roof would probably be a better place for me to start though. I believe right now I just have the factory fiber type batting up there, so really very little noise or insulation control.

 

[85glht]

Due for an update...
Had some time off and did very little with the car. Between spending time with family, a little shopping trip with my daughter, holiday stuff and some stuff around the house, oh.. And covid, I wasn't in the garage much.

Deleted the column shifter. Took pieces of the original indicator housing and epoxied them into the voids. Smeared on some bondo and added paint. Shortened the column housing and relocated the shaft bearing.

Added some sound deadener to the floor. Really makes a difference when you tap on the side done, compared to the side that isn't. Really hoping it'll help with heat too. Using the thicker foam type, up inside the dash, in place of the fiberglass. The floor is done with 80 mill "canopus" brand in front and 50 mill in rear. I'll add pics of rear later. Occurred to me last night, that I should've left a piece out, where the shifter will mount. Just need weld some studs in..

Still waiting on my modded shifter. Blake has been swamped and with holidays etc. I get it. He wanted to do a video of how to mod a 8hp shifter to appear like a stock torqueflight shifter,. So I sent him what I had.

Pushrods should be here today. So this weekend, I should be able to button the motor up and think about my next move. I need to clean up the bay a bit, plug some holes and do a little touch up.. But I'm close to slapping it in.

I also broke down and ordered the usct pedal bracket.. I deserve a treat.

And a Pic of our idiot dog for a laugh. Every damn night, this is how this guy sleeps.

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That dog isn't dumb

 

[85glht]

Oh wow, you went whole hog on the deadener. I've been thinking about adding some of the butyl strips to my car to kill the resonance now that it's a primary driver and seeing a lot more road time. I have some foil backed jute type insulation under my carpet now, but that's it. Thought about doing the Dynamat type strips on some of the larger "flat" sections to see if it helps with noise any. The roof would probably be a better place for me to start though. I believe right now I just have the factory fiber type batting up there, so really very little noise or insulation control.

The previous owner did the whole floor on my car. it does make a difference. Makes the car enjoyable on long rides

 

[Dantra]

Oh wow, you went whole hog on the deadener. I've been thinking about adding some of the butyl strips to my car to kill the resonance now that it's a primary driver and seeing a lot more road time. I have some foil backed jute type insulation under my carpet now, but that's it. Thought about doing the Dynamat type strips on some of the larger "flat" sections to see if it helps with noise any. The roof would probably be a better place for me to start though. I believe right now I just have the factory fiber type batting up there, so really very little noise or insulation control.

I had the carpet out for welding purposes anyway (frame connectors) so it really wasn't too bad. The Canopus brand seemed to stick really well and the price point is good when compared to other brands.. Killmat was the same price, but it's made in Russia. Nope! Was a nice project for a brain dead day. I'd love to do the roof but I have zero plans to remove the headliner.. ever!

 

[plumkrazee70]

I had the carpet out for welding purposes anyway (frame connectors) so it really wasn't too bad. The Canopus brand seemed to stick really well and the price point is good when compared to other brands.. Killmat was the same price, but it's made in Russia. Nope! Was a nice project for a brain dead day. I'd love to do the roof but I have zero plans to remove the headliner.. ever!

It absolutely makes a difference. I used hushmat from Summit on the Dart. I had to redo the headliner, so I did the roof, I was amazed afterwards. You could knock on the roof and it was a solid this like a knocking on a solid wood door.

 

[DionR]

Very nice!

I too wonder if blanking everything on the floor is overkill. Seems like the late model cars only do larger flat areas. I think the roof probably needs most of it covered, but not so sure on the floor.

Not that overkill is bad. Just thinking about weight and cost.

 

[Dantra]

Very nice!

I too wonder if blanking everything on the floor is overkill. Seems like the late model cars only do larger flat areas. I think the roof probably needs most of it covered, but not so sure on the floor.

Not that overkill is bad. Just thinking about weight and cost.

Heat reduction is what I'm mainly after.. overkill, it's what we do brother!

Also.. it was 40 more bucks. One reason I did 50 mill instead of 80 mill in the back

 

[DionR]

overkill, it's what we do brother!

Ain't that the truth!!

 

[Map63Vette]

It absolutely makes a difference. I used hushmat from Summit on the Dart. I had to redo the headliner, so I did the roof, I was amazed afterwards. You could knock on the roof and it was a solid this like a knocking on a solid wood door.

Did you do your whole roof or just strips? I've read various ways to do it like putting on a strip at a time and knocking on the panel until you're satisfied with the sound. I haven't had my headliner out for the better part of 10 years, so I can't recall exactly what it looked like for reinforcement under there you might have to work around. I'm pretty sure I at least coated it in POR-15 though, so hopefully it's still steel and not rust...

 

[racerjoe]

I used the eastwood branded product for floors, doors, roof, etc. i wouldn't recommend using that product on the roof. In the summer, it melts and drips through the perforated holes in the headliner. Pisses me off, but I'm not dropping the headliner to remove it. I figure it will stop dripping eventually.

 

[DionR]

I used the eastwood branded product for floors, doors, roof, etc. i wouldn't recommend using that product on the roof. In the summer, it melts and drips through the perforated holes in the headliner. Pisses me off, but I'm not dropping the headliner to remove it. I figure it will stop dripping eventually.

Yikes!

 

[plumkrazee70]

Did you do your whole roof or just strips? I've read various ways to do it like putting on a strip at a time and knocking on the panel until you're satisfied with the sound. I haven't had my headliner out for the better part of 10 years, so I can't recall exactly what it looked like for reinforcement under there you might have to work around. I'm pretty sure I at least coated it in POR-15 though, so hopefully it's still steel and not rust...

I did the entire room on the 70 Dart I here is t much obstacles. I just wire wheeled the roof, put the hushmat on the roof and then used some dap glue and glued thin jute to it (was hoping for a little more insulation.)

I had no trouble with it melting or coming loose.

 

[Map63Vette]

I used the eastwood branded product for floors, doors, roof, etc. i wouldn't recommend using that product on the roof. In the summer, it melts and drips through the perforated holes in the headliner. Pisses me off, but I'm not dropping the headliner to remove it. I figure it will stop dripping eventually.

I had heard something like that before. I wasn't sure if any of the products out there were better suited for overhead installation like that or not. I know I've heard of people buying straight up roofing strips from the local DIY store, but some say the smell is very prominent, at least for a while I imagine. Guessing the "automotive" targeted stuff is slightly different at least, but maybe not enough to make a difference? I wonder about doing something like a moisture barrier under it to protect against something like that. I used some plastic liner designed to go under hardwood floors in my car behind the door panels as a moisture barrier. Bought some butyl "rope" I ran around the perimeter, then pressed the plastic against it to stick it on and put the door panels over that. I'd wonder if you couldn't do something similar on the roof where you do the noise/vibration mat on the roof, then put a plastic liner under to "seal" it, unless that would cause more issues down the road than it would solve.

 

[plumkrazee70]

I used the eastwood branded product for floors, doors, roof, etc. i wouldn't recommend using that product on the roof. In the summer, it melts and drips through the perforated holes in the headliner. Pisses me off, but I'm not dropping the headliner to remove it. I figure it will stop dripping eventually.

Oh man. That sucks.

 

[Dantra]

I used the eastwood branded product for floors, doors, roof, etc. i wouldn't recommend using that product on the roof. In the summer, it melts and drips through the perforated holes in the headliner. Pisses me off, but I'm not dropping the headliner to remove it. I figure it will stop dripping eventually.

Black car in Louisiana.. That's probably the paint melting through the roof skin.

 

[racerjoe]

Black car in Louisiana.. That's probably the paint melting through the roof skin.

LMAO! It very well could be!