Calling all corner carvers!

[black954]

This is a nice thread. I have real world experience with big tracks and competed twice in Optima Batteries and numerous track days in the north east.

The factory parts are strong, but a couple things to be aware of. Starting with the steering, my Borgeson kit along with a cooler is a no brainer. The on center response is unmatched. I am not a fan of manual, some are. The roller bearing idler conversion is sold by firm feel, and makes sense. Any new idler is junk when it comes to the stiffness of the K frame side. My delrin lca bushings are also a must as stiffness is critical here. I made pins to fit these perfectly. No inner OR outer shells necessary. Delrin is self lubricating and only needs the proper grease upon assembly. I do not believe in drilling holes in something that carries a huge load. An adjustable strut rod is necessary to ensure smooth movement of the lower arm without binding. Ehrenberg has argued the effective length of a heim jointed strut rod is shorter, creating an arc that could bind the lower arm. I don't believe it makes that much difference. Checking movement during assembly is critical. The 1.12 t bars are good. I'm a sway away distributor and usually sell them a little less expensively. I'd stay away from any shock that is not mono tube. This leaves out some popular options like Viking, QA1, KYB and others. I sell Bilstein and Fox. Ridetech is also another Fox shock. Before purchasing shocks, checking ride height is critical. Your tire height is critical too. I've suggested thin urethane bumpstops, which work well. I run a 275 35 18 tire square and have found them a little shorter than I'd like. If you run a 26" tire and keep the body height at 24.25" front ground, through the center of the wheel to the fender lip, all should be right. Going for the taller spindle will help. The roll center will drop and the neg camber gain will improve in bump. You can even use a taller upper ball joint. Check geometry carefully. I sell SPC upper arms as they offer the easiest alignment, greaseable bushings and the widest possible range of adjustment. The Baer brake setup sounds good. I'm not crazy about them as a company, but that's just me...Their alum hub is nice. The parts are expensive. Go all the way for monoblocks and two piece rotors to save weight. My SRT rotors are much more economical but on the heavy side. I'm not a fan of manual brakes either. I'm a hydroboost guy, but that's just me. My car is a street car that can survive on the track, not the other way around. Hope some of this helps!

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I appreciate your input immensely. I have a LOT of road racing experience on superbikes and supermotos as well as LOTS of off-road truck building. I'm also a welding instructor and was formerly a master BMW tech. What I do NOT claim to be is a road race car expert, but more of a novice. Also, i'm not well educated on old Mopars so this is why I bring this subject up. I really rely on the input of those with the experience with these old Mopars going around turns. Your car is awesome and I read up on your Optima challenge which is pretty awesome. On my car in particular, it was factory power delete and I'd like to keep it that way. The only accessory on my engine will be an alternator lol. Also, I will be running a pretty rowdy cam which eliminates a vacuum booster. I will be running the same tire size as you are and i'm just finalizing the wheels i'll be running. I'm leaning towards Konig Dekagram 18x9.5's +35 front and +25 rear. I will be calling you with an order as soon as I get my K member out and reinforced, which is the next item on my to-do list. Thank you again for all the great information.

 

[BergmanAutoCraft]

I appreciate your input immensely. I have a LOT of road racing experience on superbikes and supermotos as well as LOTS of off-road truck building. I'm also a welding instructor and was formerly a master BMW tech. What I do NOT claim to be is a road race car expert, but more of a novice. Also, i'm not well educated on old Mopars so this is why I bring this subject up. I really rely on the input of those with the experience with these old Mopars going around turns. Your car is awesome and I read up on your Optima challenge which is pretty awesome. On my car in particular, it was factory power delete and I'd like to keep it that way. The only accessory on my engine will be an alternator lol. Also, I will be running a pretty rowdy cam which eliminates a vacuum booster. I will be running the same tire size as you are and i'm just finalizing the wheels i'll be running. I'm leaning towards Konig Dekagram 18x9.5's +35 front and +25 rear. I will be calling you with an order as soon as I get my K member out and reinforced, which is the next item on my to-do list. Thank you again for all the great information.

Looking forward to speaking with you.

 

[MRGTX]

Great info in this thread so far. You already have feedback from some of the smartest guys on the forum and if I know anything about this stuff, I learned it from them so I don't know what else I can add except a couple of opinions.

@BergmanAutoCraft mentioned 1.12" torsion bars....and I would listen to this advice. While lots of guys refer to the 1.08" bars (and those are a big improvement over stock), the kind of driving and modern tire performance that you're looking for will be able to take advantage of a stiffer spring.

@72bluNblu is always a font of incredibly valuable and precise information here but one concern that he had was about the final drive and I'm not sure if I agree that it's a problem. Unless you're addressing the aerodynamics of your car, your top speed will be limited by how pee-resistant your seats may be. I've only approached 120 mph in my Dart a few times and even with upgraded suspension components, it starts to get dicey. Much faster and it would stop being fun...just my opinion but I will bet your 3.55s will do fine on the top end. You'll have the power to use almost that whole speed range on a long straight but you may not want to anyway.

A couple more thoughts--

Unless I missed it in my early morning, pre-coffee haze, you didn't mention seats...if you're thinking of running stock bench or stock buckets...think again. You're going to want a lot more lateral support.

Unless I missed this too, you might benefit from a battery relocation kit to shift that lump of weight to a more useful spot...

Keep an eye on your oil pressure. You probably have a windage tray in your pan of your built motor. In case you don't, high cornering Gs while pulling 7k could run you out of oil You may want to consider oiling system upgrades before you spin a bearing.



It sounds like you're building my dream car. I'm going a similar direction, but I'm way behind in terms of engine/transmission equipment...your combo sounds like a blast...while my stock Magnum 5.9 and built A904 need to be sent to a new home...at this point I've settled on saving my scarce time and buying a crate motor from Blueprint (or another reputable builder)...and unfortunately, I also need to save up for a manual transmission swap kit which is killing me. I keep the quote from Silversport pinned to the wall so I remember to stay on task.

Good luck with your build and please keep us posted!

 

[black954]

Great info in this thread so far. You already have feedback from some of the smartest guys on the forum and if I know anything about this stuff, I learned it from them so I don't know what else I can add except a couple of opinions.

@BergmanAutoCraft mentioned 1.12" torsion bars....and I would listen to this advice. While lots of guys refer to the 1.08" bars (and those are a big improvement over stock), the kind of driving and modern tire performance that you're looking for will be able to take advantage of a stiffer spring.

@72bluNblu is always a font of incredibly valuable and precise information here but one concern that he had was about the final drive and I'm not sure if I agree that it's a problem. Unless you're addressing the aerodynamics of your car, your top speed will be limited by how pee-resistant your seats may be. I've only approached 120 mph in my Dart a few times and even with upgraded suspension components, it starts to get dicey. Much faster and it would stop being fun...just my opinion but I will bet your 3.55s will do fine on the top end. You'll have the power to use almost that whole speed range on a long straight but you may not want to anyway.

A couple more thoughts--

Unless I missed it in my early morning, pre-coffee haze, you didn't mention seats...if you're thinking of running stock bench or stock buckets...think again. You're going to want a lot more lateral support.

Unless I missed this too, you might benefit from a battery relocation kit to shift that lump of weight to a more useful spot...

Keep an eye on your oil pressure. You probably have a windage tray in your pan of your built motor. In case you don't, high cornering Gs while pulling 7k could run you out of oil You may want to consider oiling system upgrades before you spin a bearing.



It sounds like you're building my dream car. I'm going a similar direction, but I'm way behind in terms of engine/transmission equipment...your combo sounds like a blast...while my stock Magnum 5.9 and built A904 need to be sent to a new home...at this point I've settled on saving my scarce time and buying a crate motor from Blueprint (or another reputable builder)...and unfortunately, I also need to save up for a manual transmission swap kit which is killing me. I keep the quote from Silversport pinned to the wall so I remember to stay on task.

Good luck with your build and please keep us posted!

I appreciate your input as well. I couldn’t agree more with your thoughts on 72bluNblu, he’s a goldmine of information. I didn’t bring up my interior or engine plans only because I’m not to that point yet. I’m trying to get a good plan with the front suspension since I’m moving to the front end now. But to answer your questions, yes I will be running bolstered bucket seats. More than likely one of the wide options from Corbeau since I’m a big guy at 6’4” 285lbs. Also, Milodon has an awesome road race oil pan, pick up, and windage tray I’ll be using in my motor. I have a build thread in “Members Restorations” if you want to follow the build more closely. I like your idea of running a Magnum in your car, they are great engines and make awesome torque. Plus they always sound good even with stock cams.

 

[MRGTX]

Here is how the front bars were done in Tim's car...
View attachment 1715470757

Andy,
Do you know who makes/sells these bars?

 

[72bluNblu]

Andy,
Do you know who makes/sells these bars?

I have a similar set up in my car.

I bought mine from Dillinger Chassis, before he disappeared.

Currently I think the only one selling them retail is Magnumforce. Yeah, I know, their reputation is a little questionable on some of their stuff. I bought a set for my Challenger from them, they're actually pretty nice and the landing and shock mounting plates are well designed.
Forward struts used to triangulate the front frame in a Mopar

And really they're just tubing. So you can have them bent up locally pretty easily.

 

[MRGTX]

I have a similar set up in my car.
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I bought mine from Dillinger Chassis, before he disappeared.

Currently I think the only one selling them retail is Magnumforce. Yeah, I know, their reputation is a little questionable on some of their stuff. I bought a set for my Challenger from them, they're actually pretty nice and the landing and shock mounting plates are well designed.
Forward struts used to triangulate the front frame in a Mopar

And really they're just tubing. So you can have them bent up locally pretty easily.

Yet again, thanks!
You've installed these more than once so is it a safe assumption that you think they're important and worth the cost?

 

[black954]

72bluNblu, what diameter tubing are those bars on your car? I am making my own and I have 2.0" and 1.625" 4130 .120" and .083" thick tubing on hand. I was planning on using the 1.625"x.083" for the "J" bars.

 

[72bluNblu]

Yet again, thanks!
You've installed these more than once so is it a safe assumption that you think they're important and worth the cost?

I have the J-bars installed on my Duster, and the US Cartool inner fender braces on my Dart because I wanted the chassis work to be less obvious on that car (matching numbers GT). I have the magnumforce bars for my Challenger but haven't installed them yet as I still have chassis repair to do on that car.

I do think they're important. The front half of these cars, especially from the cowl forward, are pretty floppy. Part of that is because they can be, the suspension loads are carried by the K frame and crossmembers so the vertical plane didn't have to be as stiff. I noticed on both my Challenger and my Duster that you can actually see the hood and front end shifting around on the road. "Cowl shake" I've heard people call it. Anyway, I think on anything with upgraded suspension and tires that section of the car needs some reinforcement. The J-bars are probably overkill, the US Cartool pieces are less intrusive and still triangulate the upper shock mounts, cowl and frame rails. I actually think that and the torque boxes are probably the number 1 and 2 chassis improvements, the subframe connectors are important but I think the overall stiffness of the chassis is improved more by the torque boxes and forward braces.

72bluNblu, what diameter tubing are those bars on your car? I am making my own and I have 2.0" and 1.625" 4130 .120" and .083" thick tubing on hand. I was planning on using the 1.625"x.083" for the "J" bars.

The bars on my Duster are 1.75" x.083 or .120", I don't remember. The magnumforce bars for my Challenger are 1.625"x.120". Both have provisions to connect them to the cowl, the upper shock mounts, and the frame rail. On my cars I also have lower radiator support reinforcements, so like on my Duster the J-bars are tied into the frame rails above a tubular lower radiator support brace. So the bars go a little farther forward than the bars on the "Red Brick". They're also higher above the inner fenders, which makes them a little more in the way. The magnumforce bars are fit tighter to the inner fender and that would be an improvement over the Dillinger ones on my Duster. At least cosmetically and for working around them.

I don't think it makes a huge difference if they're not part of a cage. They're being welded to sheet metal at the cowl, and even with a large landing plate I think the strength of the bar is much higher than the connections to the cowl and frame rail. So I wouldn't spend a ton of time thinking about what size. The 1.625" x .083" should be plenty strong enough connected to 3 points with large landing plates. I don't think I'd go too much larger in diameter just because the larger the diameter the harder they'll be to work around and fit tightly to the car.

 

[my68barracuda]

Question,
I should have had the Car Tool fender braces installed when I had my car completely apart and installed new inner fenders. I hate to go in there and weld in the braces and mess with the new paint. What if I would bolt in the Car Tool fender braces, that would be a lot less invasive,,,
Or would that not be effective?
I did weld in a Car Tool lower radiator support while the rehab was in process. Should have done the fender braces then but did not. Any recommendations?

 

[70chall440]

Look at Kevko oil pans, am running one on my Cuda, really nice construction and as I recall they were better priced than others.

https://kevkoracing.com/collections/mopar

 

[72bluNblu]

Question,
I should have had the Car Tool fender braces installed when I had my car completely apart and installed new inner fenders. I hate to go in there and weld in the braces and mess with the new paint. What if I would bolt in the Car Tool fender braces, that would be a lot less invasive,,,
Or would that not be effective?
I did weld in a Car Tool lower radiator support while the rehab was in process. Should have done the fender braces then but did not. Any recommendations?

Yeah, that's going to be tough. The thing about the US Cartool inner fender braces is that they're just an "L" shape, they really use the inner fender as the wall to complete the "box". Without that side they'll lose a lot of strength.

The only way I see that working at all would be to weld them to the upper shock support, which gets boxed as part of that kit, and the cowl. The shock mount reinforcement shouldn't burn through to the inner fender if you leave off the inner weld, and the cowl side would burn through on the inside of the firewall (which needs to be bare with all the padding and carpet removed). So it would be solid at both ends. If you welded tabs to the inner fender support you could then bolt it up against the inner fender in between the shock mount and the cowl. I think the result doing it that way would still be better than having nothing there, but it wouldn't be nearly as strong as if it was welded down both sides of the brace to the inner fender. Not having the shock mount welded to the inner fender at that end would hurt it, although you might be able to reinforce the shock mount a little more on the sides and and to the frame rails to make that part stiffer without hurting the engine bay paint.

Another option would be to use a tubular support there. Welded solid at both ends with landing plates and then tubular in between. Remember XV Motorsports? They had a tubular brace like that. Turns out they have returned, one of their former people started XV Engineering. Now, I would be skeptical still. But they've been around for a few years now. Anyway, this is their product, which I think might work better for you since it won't be welded the whole length of the inner fender, just at the cowl and shock upright which should keep burn through off of the visible part of the inner fender.

XV INNER FENDER BRACE A Body

This is a picture of a similar brace that was made by Dillinger Chassis, it's a little different with the landing plates and would work even better. So you could have a set made up, or use the XV pieces and alter the landing plates to attach just to the upper shock mount.

Here's the thread on those. Dillinger isn't in business anymore, but there's more pictures if you wanted to have a set made.
Custom Inner Fender Braces 67-76

 

[my68barracuda]

72bluNblu,, thanks good information,
I believe I will continue putting the car back together for use this summer and fall,
over next winter I may bite the bullet, strip it down to the inner fenders and weld in the USCT fender supports.
I'll probably have some scratches on the under hood inner fenders by then that need some attention,,,,,

 

[black954]

I have the J-bars installed on my Duster, and the US Cartool inner fender braces on my Dart because I wanted the chassis work to be less obvious on that car (matching numbers GT). I have the magnumforce bars for my Challenger but haven't installed them yet as I still have chassis repair to do on that car.

I do think they're important. The front half of these cars, especially from the cowl forward, are pretty floppy. Part of that is because they can be, the suspension loads are carried by the K frame and crossmembers so the vertical plane didn't have to be as stiff. I noticed on both my Challenger and my Duster that you can actually see the hood and front end shifting around on the road. "Cowl shake" I've heard people call it. Anyway, I think on anything with upgraded suspension and tires that section of the car needs some reinforcement. The J-bars are probably overkill, the US Cartool pieces are less intrusive and still triangulate the upper shock mounts, cowl and frame rails. I actually think that and the torque boxes are probably the number 1 and 2 chassis improvements, the subframe connectors are important but I think the overall stiffness of the chassis is improved more by the torque boxes and forward braces.



The bars on my Duster are 1.75" x.083 or .120", I don't remember. The magnumforce bars for my Challenger are 1.625"x.120". Both have provisions to connect them to the cowl, the upper shock mounts, and the frame rail. On my cars I also have lower radiator support reinforcements, so like on my Duster the J-bars are tied into the frame rails above a tubular lower radiator support brace. So the bars go a little farther forward than the bars on the "Red Brick". They're also higher above the inner fenders, which makes them a little more in the way. The magnumforce bars are fit tighter to the inner fender and that would be an improvement over the Dillinger ones on my Duster. At least cosmetically and for working around them.

I don't think it makes a huge difference if they're not part of a cage. They're being welded to sheet metal at the cowl, and even with a large landing plate I think the strength of the bar is much higher than the connections to the cowl and frame rail. So I wouldn't spend a ton of time thinking about what size. The 1.625" x .083" should be plenty strong enough connected to 3 points with large landing plates. I don't think I'd go too much larger in diameter just because the larger the diameter the harder they'll be to work around and fit tightly to the car.

Ok, that makes sense. I’m going to use the 1.625”x.083” 4130 chrome moly. It super rigid and very light weight. I will also be adding the shock mount supports tied into the J bars. I will also be reinforcing the radiator brace. I can not believe how flimsy and thin that is from the factory.

 

[AndyF]

The J bars work but they take up a bunch of space and force you to move things around. On my Duster project we went with the under fender braces and boxed in the shock mount. I don't have any way to measure chassis rigidity but this car seems nice and solid on the street.

 

[72bluNblu]

The J bars work but they take up a bunch of space and force you to move things around. On my Duster project we went with the under fender braces and boxed in the shock mount. I don't have any way to measure chassis rigidity but this car seems nice and solid on the street.
View attachment 1715478740

I don’t really have any issues working around the J-bars in my Duster. They’re actually pretty far away from the engine itself. Sure, there’s something there vs nothing, but they’re less of an issue than say, the master cylinder when you’re working on the back of the engine. I haven’t run into an issue yet where I tried to install something or work on something that I couldn’t because the J-bar was in the way.

I do like the US Cartool inner fender braces though, they’re definitely a well thought out solution, very efficient. For their size, weight and location I think they do a lot for improving the chassis. They probably achieve a significant percentage of the stiffening a set of j-bars do. I suspect the J bars probably do a little more, but they’re big, ugly, quite a bit heavier, and very obvious. Definitely not right for every build.

 

[black954]

I wanted to give an update on my front end. This is what I ended up using thanks to a lot of great suggestions from this thread.
First off, I removed the K-member and rewelded all the original welds, then added 4130 sheet metal reinforcements to the idler arm bracket and steering box mounts. Then I bent up my own J-bars tied into the shock towers. I plated the firewall and top of the frame rails with more 4130. The J-bars and short down bars ended up being 4130 1.625”x.095” and the shock tower stubs are 4130 2.0”x.120”. This made the entire front of the incredibly rigid. I then assembled the front with the following components: Doctor Diff spindles, lower ball joints, and Viper 13” brake kit. Then from BAC is the Borgeson quick ratio power steering box, with BACs column adapter. Firm Feel 1.12” race torsion bars with their poly grease boots. Then I used QA1 strut rods, LCA’s, and TB adjusters. I went with the SPC adjustable UCA’s and finally the Hotchkis Fox non-adjustable 1.5 aluminum body shocks. I ordered the 73 and up Hellwig 1.25” sway bar, but I found out the hard way that it won’t work on my 69’ K-member. So i’ll send it back and order the correct sway bar.
As of now, here’s where the car is at. I think it sits a bit low so I’ll raise it up a bit once the engine and complete front end is back on. I can’t thank 72bluNblu for his recommendations on the wheel size and offset. I don’t think the front wheels could have fit any more perfect with all the non-stock components. Once the 2 piece Baer rotors show up, ill see the exact clearance between the calipers and wheel spokes. Right now with 3 washers as spacers, there’s less than 1/8” clearance.

 

[black954]

Close to ride height

 

[black954]

Look at Kevko oil pans, am running one on my Cuda, really nice construction and as I recall they were better priced than others.

Mopar

Thank you for the suggestion, I ordered mine today. Great customer service for sure.

 

[GMachineDartGT]

Thank you for the suggestion, I ordered mine today. Great customer service for sure.

i had one of these once and returned it. I hope the welding has gotten better as mine was awful and I’m being nice....

 

[black954]

i had one of these once and returned it. I hope the welding has gotten better as mine was awful and I’m being nice....

I hope that’s not the case. If it’s bad, I’ll send it back I guess. I was just happy to save a bunch over the Milodon pan and still get an American made oil pan.

 

[70chall440]

Mine was/is very nice. Actually I had 2 of them, I ordered the wrong one initially but as you said their customer service is great and I was able to return it and get the one I needed. Welding on both pan was nice from what I saw.

 

[gzig5]

i had one of these once and returned it. I hope the welding has gotten better as mine was awful and I’m being nice....

I’ve read similar reports on Miloden quality from time to time too. The Kevco pan I have is solid. I wouldn’t say it is artistic though. I’m sure they all let a lemon out now and again but it’s how they handle it that makes a difference.

 

[72bluNblu]

I wanted to give an update on my front end. This is what I ended up using thanks to a lot of great suggestions from this thread.
First off, I removed the K-member and rewelded all the original welds, then added 4130 sheet metal reinforcements to the idler arm bracket and steering box mounts. Then I bent up my own J-bars tied into the shock towers. I plated the firewall and top of the frame rails with more 4130. The J-bars and short down bars ended up being 4130 1.625”x.095” and the shock tower stubs are 4130 2.0”x.120”. This made the entire front of the incredibly rigid. I then assembled the front with the following components: Doctor Diff spindles, lower ball joints, and Viper 13” brake kit. Then from BAC is the Borgeson quick ratio power steering box, with BACs column adapter. Firm Feel 1.12” race torsion bars with their poly grease boots. Then I used QA1 strut rods, LCA’s, and TB adjusters. I went with the SPC adjustable UCA’s and finally the Hotchkis Fox non-adjustable 1.5 aluminum body shocks. I ordered the 73 and up Hellwig 1.25” sway bar, but I found out the hard way that it won’t work on my 69’ K-member. So i’ll send it back and order the correct sway bar.
As of now, here’s where the car is at. I think it sits a bit low so I’ll raise it up a bit once the engine and complete front end is back on. I can’t thank 72bluNblu for his recommendations on the wheel size and offset. I don’t think the front wheels could have fit any more perfect with all the non-stock components. Once the 2 piece Baer rotors show up, ill see the exact clearance between the calipers and wheel spokes. Right now with 3 washers as spacers, there’s less than 1/8” clearance.

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Close to ride height

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Looking good!

i had one of these once and returned it. I hope the welding has gotten better as mine was awful and I’m being nice....

I’ve read similar reports on Miloden quality from time to time too. The Kevco pan I have is solid. I wouldn’t say it is artistic though. I’m sure they all let a lemon out now and again but it’s how they handle it that makes a difference.

I have both a Kevko pan and a Milodon road race pan. The Kevko pan works just fine, but it looks like a home build pan. Function-wise it works fine, it has fewer bells and whistles compared to the Milodon but it's far better than an unmodified stock pan for controlling oil movement. But I could build a pan like that at home and it would look the same. Functional, but not fancy.

The Milodon pan looks like a production made pan. Everything is consistent, well formed and professionally finished. Definitely has all the bells and whistles, lots of little tricks and finer details. It wasn't perfect by any means though, I had to adjust the pick up clearances quite a bit to work with my engine and windage tray. But I had to do the same thing with the Kevko.

I would buy a Kevko vs a stock pan every single time on every build. But for a car I was intending to do some serious autoX or road racing with I'd buy the Milodon. Just my opinion.

 

[black954]

My pan came today, about 26 hours after I ordered it. Looks fine to me. I agree the welds leave a little to be desired, but it’s an oil pan that mostly won’t ever get seen. For the cost savings, I’m happy. This engine is supposed to last me a few years until my 340 is built. That engine will be a full on race build with high end components, high RPM, and more importantly a dry sump oil system. Now I’m just trying to get this car driving for the summer so I can dial it in.