Cam degreeing help me understand!

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RustyRatRod said:
**** if I know. I've never done it that way. That's way too convoluted. With the piston stop, rotate the engine until it makes contact. Write the number down on the wheel. Rotate the engine the opposite direction. Write that number down. Halfway between those two is TDC. That just removes "ANY" room for error whatsoever.
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Yea that is the same way haha. I think my first step is to make sure I'm getting a good reading on my lifter. I'm got a spare set of lifters im gonna take an old pushrod and weld it in the cup then cut it to the appropriate size. That way om not resting on the side of the lifter. Then I will re zero it. If that don't work then im gonna question my engine tech timing chain!
 
dartfreak75 said:
Yea that is the way haha. I think my first step is to make sure I'm getting a good reading on my lifter. I'm got a spare set of lifters im gonna take an old pushrod and weld it in the cup then cut it to the appropriate size. That way om not resting on the side of the lifter. Then I will re zero it. If that don't work then im gonna question my engine tech timing chain!
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I thought you had one of those fittings that plugs into the lifter bore you put the dial indicator in. You have all sorts of room for error then. It sounds like you are using the hydraulic lifter to measure off of. You cannot do that. "whatever" you use between the dial indicator and the lobe must be solid. You cannot use the hydraulic lifter plunger.
 
RustyRatRod said:
I thought you had one of those fittings that plugs into the lifter bore you put the dial indicator in. You have all sorts of room for error then. It sounds like you are using the hydraulic lifter to measure off of. You cannot do that. "whatever" you use between the dial indicator and the lobe must be solid. You cannot use the hydraulic lifter plunger.
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No I'm just using a lifter im just using the side if the lifter the solid part. I wish I would have taken better pictures this morning.

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dartfreak75 said:
No I'm just using a lifter im just using the side if the lifter the solid part. I wish I would have taken better pictures this morning.

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Ok, there's no way in hell you can be on that OR stay on that straight through turning the engine. You need this, and you need to make a piston stop. Real easy. Piece of 2x4 the width of the deck. Bolt it on with two head bolts. Drill a hole in the middle and put a bolt and nut in it and tighten it down. Then bolt that on the deck.

Proform Cam Checker Tools 66843
 
RustyRatRod said:
Ok, there's no way in hell you can be on that OR stay on that straight through turning the engine. You need this, and you need to make a piston stop. Real easy. Piece of 2x4 the width of the deck. Bolt it on with two head bolts. Drill a hole in the middle and put a bolt and nut in it and tighten it down. Then bolt that on the deck.

Proform Cam Checker Tools 66843
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That may be my answer then. I will rig something up make a solid lifter or something.
 
dartfreak75 said:
That may be my answer then. I will rig something up make a solid lifter or something.
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You can flip a lifter upside down, but you're not gettin it. All you can see is not wanting to spend money. Just line it up dot to dot and be done with it. Even flipping a lifter upside down, THERE'S NO WAY you can get the dial indicator exactly centered and straight enough to get an accurate reading. I've tried it. Unless you have "something" that centers off the lifter bore, just line the dots up and be did wif it, yo. lol
 
There are some people that use a solid lifter and a pushrod with a dial indicator on a magnetic base, but it won't be as accurate as a single solid piece like RRR said. I honestly about said that yesterday about the hydraulic lift, but I thought you had a solid lifter to check piston to valve clearance.
 
RammerJammer75 said:
There are some people that use a solid lifter and a pushrod with a dial indicator on a magnetic base, but it won't be as accurate as a single solid piece like RRR said. I honestly about said that yesterday about the hydraulic lift, but I thought you had a solid lifter to check piston to valve clearance.
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No im planing on making one tho. Im gonna try a few things this morning before bed I will let you know how it goes lol
 
Make up a wood dowel on your lathe at work out of some hardwood, use that as your solid lifter. Same diameter as the hyd lifter and a 1/4" longer.

Make sure the ends are square and true, put some motor oil on it and go to town with your cam dial task.
 
Ok so I did like @yellow rose rose and @George Jets said and started on the compression stroke tdc dots at 12 and 6 and went 180 degrees the dots are now at 3 and 6 and the exhaust is noticeably higher. So does that mean im retarded? Well not me but the engine? Well maybe both of us!

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It does seem that way. The degree wheel showed cam timing retarded and this does too. So now, is it actually 24* or is it less? I think a solid fixture and redo the cam degree to verify.
 
RammerJammer75 said:
It does seem that way. The degree wheel showed cam timing retarded and this does too. So now, is it actually 24* or is it less? I think a solid fixture and redo the cam degree to verify.
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Ok just for reasurace i checked the exhaust side it calls for 49 degrees bbdc im at 30 so around 19 degrees so its right on with the rest. I do believe o got a bad timing chain. I'm sure the 3 degrees is in my poor setup
 
OK we are moving forward here. Try 360° instead of 180° so you are at TDC on #1, but at the same time it will be up on compression stroke on #6 and your cam dots will be 6 on the cam and 12 on the crank.

Now look at the intake and exhaust lifters on #1 cylinder, they should be at the same heights. The intake and exhaust cam lobes will be in transition from exhaust valve closing and the intake valve just starting to open at the top of the stroke on #1.

Straight Up Timing
 
I knew we would get to the head slapping moment sooner or later, just got to keep at it.

These are all exercises in building and learning your knowledge base on how to degree cams. Experiences you don't forget and will be with you for a long long time.

So far so good, the journey is as much fun as the final destination. On your way to "Expert" now, just keep going.
 
George Jets said:
OK we are moving forward here. Try 360° instead of 180° so you are at TDC on #1, but at the same time it will be up on compression stroke on #6 and your cam dots will be 6 on the cam and 12 on the crank.

Now look at the intake and exhaust lifters on #1 cylinder, they should be at the same heights. The intake and exhaust cam lobes will be in transition from exhaust valve closing and the intake valve just starting to open at the top of the stroke on #1.

Straight Up Timing
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Ok compression on number 6 dots are lined up and the exhaust is still slightly higher its still on its way down and the intake is getting ready to come up

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George Jets said:
I knew we would get to the head slapping moment sooner or later, just got to keep at it.

These are all exercises in building and learning your knowledge base on how to degree cams. Experiences you don't forget and will be with you for a long long time.

So far so good, the journey is as much fun as the final destination. On your way to "Expert" now, just keep going.
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It makes me feel alot better that it just wasn't me being stupid haha. I knew what I was doing haha what is the odds that my very first attempt something is wrong. So now the question is, was the cam ground wrong or the timing chain cut wrong? Its a engine tech so I'm gonna bet its that. I have a used cloyes i may pop it on and try again just to make sure its not the cam
 
dartfreak75 said:
Ok compression on number 6 dots are lined up and the exhaust is still slightly higher its still on its way down and the intake is getting ready to come up

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dartfreak75 said:
@318willrun whats your opinion on the matter now? I always like to get your input
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Are number 6 cylinder lifters even when you are in this position?
 
You have a Retarded event happening there.

Focus on the Fuel Pump Eccentric in your last picture, it should be exactly 180° different to this firing on #1, your's is not.

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First step I would say the actual camshaft itself timing is off being cut retarded. By the position of where the Cam gear keyway is cut.

Draw a line up through the center of that Eccentric and you can see it.

I would say your timing chain and gears are cut correct.
 
Ok so I just compared my new timing chain to a used one I picked up and I think I found the problem with the cam sprocket key ways lined up the dots do not match the crank does you can't really see when they are on top of each other but without moving it I slid it up and you can see how far off it is!

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George Jets said:
You have a Retarded event happening there.

Focus on the Fuel Pump Eccentric in your last picture, it should be exactly 180° different to this firing on #1, your's is not.

View attachment 1715620357

First step I would say the actual camshaft itself timing is off being cut retarded. By the position of where the Cam gear keyway is cut.

Draw a line up through the center of that Eccentric and you can see it.

I would say your timing chain and gears are cut correct.
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Yep
 
And btw the new is stacked even with the used yoy can see how far off the dot is when the keyways are aligned
 
Im not gonna run this used timing chain but I will slap it on there just to check the overlap again
 
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