Cam degreeing help me understand!

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yellow rose said:
I agree. At the very least he needs to take the guts out of a hydraulic lifter and use a pushrod in it to degree the cam. Or a solid lifter.

If the OP doesn’t have a hydraulic lifter to gut, he can PM me and I’ll send him one and a pushrod so he will have it if he needs it.
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I liked the thought George had......but the exception I would add would be to make the dowel about 3" long, then drill a hole in the center the same size as the indicator end about 1" deep. That would keep the indicator straight. But if he doesn't have a drill press, forget it, because it needs to be perfectly straight with the center of the dowel or it's no good.
 
RustyRatRod said:
I liked the thought George had......but the exception I would add would be to make the dowel about 3" long, then drill a hole in the center the same size as the indicator end about 1" deep. That would keep the indicator straight. But if he doesn't have a drill press, forget it, because it needs to be perfectly straight with the center of the dowel or it's no good.
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Here are two 2 1/4" long wood dowel test lifters to use as solid lifters for cam degree tests.

Just to get the idea started, out of some .870 ths wood dowel stock had around.

Would be good to start out with 1" (.100 ths) hardwood dowel stock, chuck it up into a lathe and polish it down to .904 ths same diameter as the lifters.Then cut them to desired lengths and square off the ends.

Soak them in some engine oil, wipe them down and ready to test. Softer than the new cam lobes and lifter bores so no damage there. Dial indicator reads off top flat surface.

Good to Go . . . Rough Draft Step 1

20201027_140056.jpg
 
George Jets said:
Here are two 2 1/4" long wood dowel test lifters to use as solid lifters for cam degree tests.

Just to get the idea started, out of some .870 ths wood dowel stock had around.

Would be good to start out with 1" (.100 ths) hardwood dowel stock, chuck it up into a lathe and polish it down to .904 ths same diameter as the lifters.Then cut them to desired lengths and square off the ends.

Soak them in some engine oil, wipe them down and ready to test. Softer than the new cam lobes and lifter bores so no damage there. Dial indicator reads off top flat surface.

Good to Go . . . Rough Draft Step 1

View attachment 1715620595
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Well, unless he comes up with a way to make the dial indicator centered at the same angle as the lifter bore, he may as well install it dot to dot.
 
RustyRatRod said:
Well, unless he comes up with a way to make the dial indicator centered at the same angle as the lifter bore, he may as well install it dot to dot.
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I know it's not perfect but it was good enough to find the inaccuraracy in the TC!
 
RustyRatRod said:
Well, unless he comes up with a way to make the dial indicator centered at the same angle as the lifter bore, he may as well install it dot to dot.
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No offense but where have you been, he figured it out this morning that the dot on the camshaft sprocket was marked one tooth off, making his timing 20° retarded as what it showed up on his tests.

He is ordering a new matched set timimg chain and gear set to remedy the problem. He jumped it over a tooth and everything read correct.
 
George Jets said:
No offense but where have you been, he figured it out this morning that the dot on the camshaft sprocket was marked one tooth off, making his timing 20° retarded as what it showed up on his tests.

He is ordering a new matched set timimg chain and gear set to remedy the problem. He jumped it over a tooth and everything read correct.
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I'm just trying to help him do it as accurately as possible. What's drilling a centered hole cost? Why are people so dead set against doing something as accurately as humanly possible? I saw my Rollmaster set was marked wrong before I ever touched the wheel or a piston stop. It's not difficult to find mistakes like THAT. You know yourself, because of the crappy pushrod angle, that lift on the small block is affected to the tune of around .020", so what does that do to the rest of the measurements when you are using a degree wheel? No need to tell me no offense. In the end, it's not my engine if it comes out wrong. I just cannot understand why anyone would refuse such simple suggestions to get it dead right. If all he does is simply sit the dial indicator on top of a wooden lifter, there's no way the indicator will be at the exact angle as the lifter bore. That's the whole point of degreeing a camshaft. Getting it "EXACT". It's within his means to do so. Yall have at it. And good luck.
 
RustyRatRod said:
I'm just trying to help him do it as accurately as possible. What's drilling a centered hole cost? Why are people so dead set against doing something as accurately as humanly possible? I saw my Rollmaster set was marked wrong before I ever touched the wheel or a piston stop. It's not difficult to find mistakes like THAT. You know yourself, because of the crappy pushrod angle, that lift on the small block is affected to the tune of around .020", so what does that do to the rest of the measurements when you are using a degree wheel? No need to tell me no offense. In the end, it's not my engine if it comes out wrong. I just cannot understand why anyone would refuse such simple suggestions to get it dead right. If all he does is simply sit the dial indicator on top of a wooden lifter, there's no way the indicator will be at the exact angle as the lifter bore. That's the whole point of degreeing a camshaft. Getting it "EXACT". It's within his means to do so. Yall have at it. And good luck.
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I completely agree and I am gonna do something to make it more accurate! I like the wood dowel idea with the hole i think i will try that. Do you disagree that there is a issue with the timing chain gear? I'm probably gonna go ahead and buy a real degree wheel also!
 
George Jets said:
Here are two 2 1/4" long wood dowel test lifters to use as solid lifters for cam degree tests.

Just to get the idea started, out of some .870 ths wood dowel stock had around.

Would be good to start out with 1" (.100 ths) hardwood dowel stock, chuck it up into a lathe and polish it down to .904 ths same diameter as the lifters.Then cut them to desired lengths and square off the ends.

Soak them in some engine oil, wipe them down and ready to test. Softer than the new cam lobes and lifter bores so no damage there. Dial indicator reads off top flat surface.

Good to Go . . . Rough Draft Step 1

View attachment 1715620595
Click to expand...
I like this idea my only concern is that they would have to be clean and free of any splinters or anything that could potentially chip off that would be bad to have a chip of wood stuck in the lifter bore lol. I think I'm gonna try this.
 
dartfreak75 said:
I like this idea my only concern is that they would have to be clean and free of any splinters or anything that could potentially chip off that would be bad to have a chip of wood stuck in the lifter bore lol. I think I'm gonna try this.
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Hardwood will be a better selection than a softwood pine dowel.

Basically no pressure on it except the dial indicator tip at the top. Put some of your cam lube on the bottom, and the cam lobe too.
 
dartfreak75 said:
I completely agree and I am gonna do something to make it more accurate! I like the wood dowel idea with the hole i think i will try that. Do you disagree that there is a issue with the timing chain gear? I'm probably gonna go ahead and buy a real degree wheel also!
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I disagree that the timing issue cannot be fixed with the chain set you HAVE. That said, I would not have purchased that exact one. I know you've seen me say before......and yeah here it comes about money, but unless you spend "around or over" 100 bucks, you're not gettin a very good chain set. Now I know you like me are on a budget. I'm on a budget when I take a dump. But there are just certain things I will not cut corners on and anything to do with timing is one. Any timing chain set you get will stretch. But the nice billet sets are much better at keeping their tightness. I would call what they do "regular break in" compared to the cheaper sets. Exactly WHICH chain set do you have?

Please understand, I'm not trying to be an asshole about any of this. Well......I am an asshole, but anyway, I just wanna see you happy. Imagine how it would have turned out had I not talked you into lapping those valves. I'm still simply blown away that any of these members advised you not to do it. That engine would have had at least one dead skip!
 
The Cloyes roller timing chain sets are good, that is what I use. Rockauto.com has them.
 
RustyRatRod said:
I disagree that the timing issue cannot be fixed with the chain set you HAVE. That said, I would not have purchased that exact one. I know you've seen me say before......and yeah here it comes about money, but unless you spend "around or over" 100 bucks, you're not gettin a very good chain set. Now I know you like me are on a budget. I'm on a budget when I take a dump. But there are just certain things I will not cut corners on and anything to do with timing is one. Any timing chain set you get will stretch. But the nice billet sets are much better at keeping their tightness. I would call what they do "regular break in" compared to the cheaper sets. Exactly WHICH chain set do you have?

Please understand, I'm not trying to be an asshole about any of this. Well......I am an asshole, but anyway, I just wanna see you happy. Imagine how it would have turned out had I not talked you into lapping those valves. I'm still simply blown away that any of these members advised you not to do it. That engine would have had at least one dead skip!
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I completely agree I can make it work but like you that is a corner I don't want to cut! I am learing that spending less to try and make the budget doesn't always pan out! Here is the set i have I'm gonna get a better set.

Screenshot_20201027-202900_Samsung Internet.jpg
 
RustyRatRod said:
You need .903. 7/8 is .875. lol
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Yes 3/4" dowel is .750 ths for the sake of conversation.

My rough draft dowels that I had on the shelf are .870 ths, which is still too loose in the .904 ths lifter size hole. My stock lifters measure .904 ths that is the size I would make the new dowel starting with 1" stock (.100 ths)
 
dartfreak75 said:
I completely agree I can make it work but like you that is a corner I don't want to cut! I am learing that spending less to try and make the budget doesn't always pan out! Here is the set i have I'm gonna get a better set.

View attachment 1715620705
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I prefer the billet kits. They are more expensive, but far superior. Some will say a waste of money for a mild street engine, but street engines need accurate timing too. I did notice Summit offers the billet set for the small block in their brand. It's a pretty good deal.

Summit Racing® Billet Steel Timing Sets SUM-G6603R-B
 
Here are the Double Roller Cloyes that I use, got the ssme exact set in my '76 D100 right now, no problem. Good price at Rock too.

Screenshot_20201027-193650_Chrome.jpg


Can order it fir a '76 D100 > 360 > Engine > Timimg Set

Screenshot_20201027-194247_Chrome.jpg


20201027_194158.jpg


Nice it's the single keyway setup too, less variables to go wrong.
 
Last edited:
yellow rose said:
Yes. I don’t use a positive stop. Never have. By the time you get it bolted on, I’ve found TDC and have moved on to the rest of it.

I’m not a fan of the cardboard degree wheel. You can buy a decent 8 inch steel degree wheel for 20-30 bucks.

All I use is an 8 inch wheel. The bigger ones are nice, but I’m not paying that kind of money for one.

BTW, in the above picture of your lifters, if that’s overlap it *LOOKS* like the exhaust valve is higher than the intake. If it is, the cam is retarded.

Pictures can be deceiving.

I forgot to mention that most of those small degree wheels have a hole in them for GM stuff. There are a couple of ways to make it easier to use on Chrysler stuff.

One is to take an old damper bolt, face it off flat and drill and tap it for 3/8-16. Then machine the face for a step that is the diameter of the hole in the degree wheel.

Then the wheel is centered on the damper bolt and you can turn the crank with that bolt, and you only loosen the 3/8 bolt to adjust for TDC.

The other way is to do the same to a damper bolt but make up a spacer to fill the hole in the degree wheel.
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Yes that is the overlap if I done it correctly it still is retarded even with the other timing chain. So when I start with the compression tdc #1 the dots will be at 12 and 6 so when I rotate it 180 degrees the cam dot is now at 3 o'clock position is that correct? Thats how I did it and its still retarded.
 
yellow rose said:
I agree. At the very least he needs to take the guts out of a hydraulic lifter and use a pushrod in it to degree the cam. Or a solid lifter.

If the OP doesn’t have a hydraulic lifter to gut, he can PM me and I’ll send him one and a pushrod so he will have it if he needs it.
Click to expand...
I have a whole set of used hydraulic lifters I kept for that purpose. Lol my plan was to gut one filling it full of washers and weld a old pushrod in it. But I kinda like the wood dowel idea now. I may try both.
 
Ok another quick question about the centerline and finding it. So this came has a 112 lsa with 4 degrees advance built into it so that will put my centerline at 108° that should be the number on my degree will ATDC at max lift correct?
 
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