Coil Over vs Torsion Bar

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abodyjoe said:
oh brother....

my car felt great drove great and handled great for what i do, and felt like a modern car doing it so i was very happy with it and can't wait to buy another alter-k. if you don't like it then don't buy one thats up to you...

as far as which handles better i really don't know.. don't think theres ever been a head to head apples to apples competition...
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There have been numerous head to head comparisons, torsion bar cars are faster...I'm not saying someone SHOULDN'T buy a coil over kit if they want to, or like the "feel" I'm just saying the torsion bar suspension is better from a handling perspective
 
abodyjoe said:
theres been head to head stock suspension against alter-k, gerst, hemmy denny ? don't remember seeing those.
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They have a autocross event I think at Carlisle every year, I know that one guy who was a member here participated in think? Wrecked71 maybe...anyhow the ones I saw, the coil over cars got there *** handed to them.
 
You know what would be cool? A official FABO auto x event, torsion bars vs coil over kits...that would be awsome, maybe during a good guys event at charlotte or something
 
replicaracer43 said:
You know what would be cool? A official FABO auto x event, torsion bars vs coil over kits...that would be awsome, maybe during a good guys event at charlotte or something
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Let's do it. Putnam County road race park is near Indianapolis Motor Speedway and Indianapolis Raceway park, which happens to be a stop along the power tour next June. They rent the track out for a decent price per car.
 
abodyjoe said:
theres been head to head stock suspension against alter-k, gerst, hemmy denny ? don't remember seeing those.
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Closest I've ever seen is a stock to TVS by one of the mopar magazines back a few years ago. Problem is, you'd have to do the rear to coil overs conversion as well to get a true apples to apples.
 
replicaracer43 said:
They have a autocross event I think at Carlisle every year, I know that one guy who was a member here participated in think? Wrecked71 maybe...anyhow the ones I saw, the coil over cars got there *** handed to them.
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abodyjoe said:
i don't know about that
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Actually, now that I think about it, there was a guy on here that posted a video of his dart before and after a full Gerst swap. If I recall right, he was able to knock his time down from 60-something seconds to 50-something, same track. I don't recall the exact times though
 
I wonder how valid that really is? Did he blow the coin to dial in the t bars before yanking that all out to swap up to a coilover system?
 
coil or torsion bar, take your pick.....their job is to hold the car up, that's it.

Back to the original question....other than were the weight (spring) is placed, what advantage in handling (not adjustment) does one have over the other?.
 
Every time I see a picture of a coilover equipped mopar, the outside tire is in pos camber.
There are characteristics of suspension that make one system better than the other. I would venture to guess the t bar setup has a better camber curve and lower center of gravity. Chassis stiffness has all to do with feel. Adding reinforcements and extra spot welds make a huge difference. The steering box flex analogy is hilarious. When underway the flex is insignificant.

20180817_190704.jpg
 
GMachineDartGT said:
Every time I see a picture of a coilover equipped mopar, the outside tire is in pos camber.
There are characteristics of suspension that make one system better than the other. I would venture to guess the t bar setup has a better camber curve and lower center of gravity. Chassis stiffness has all to do with feel. Adding reinforcements and extra spot welds make a huge difference. The steering box flex analogy is hilarious. When underway the flex is insignificant.

View attachment 1715240424
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WTF does the spring...torsion or coil have to do with the camber???.....come on, you know better.
 
I am guessing (???) what you are referring to is bumpsteer causing the tires to toe-in / toe out making the wheels camber in / out....has nothing to do with what kind of spring is holding the car up.

if ANY suspension package does not have the correct geometry....it will bumpsteer.
 
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I think the original question is not just about coilover shocks by themselves. Guys are always asking should I beef up my t bar setup or purchase one of your systems, gerst, rms, etc.
As I mentioned before, if these modern retrofits are going to be billed as improvements in handling, some real specs should be advertised. Camber gain or loss in turns keeps the tires square in turns as you well know. However, I've seen several pictures from auto x and open track where the outside tire is leaning over in pos camber.
 
HemiDenny said:
coil or torsion bar, take your pick.....their job is to hold the car up, that's it.

Back to the original question....other than were the weight (spring) is placed, what advantage in handling (not adjustment) does one have over the other?.
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Unsprung weight.
 
GMachineDartGT said:
I think the original question is not just about coilover shocks by themselves. Guys are always asking should I beef up my t bar setup or purchase one of your systems, gerst, rms, etc.
As I mentioned before, if these modern retrofits are going to be billed as improvements in handling, some real specs should be advertised. Camber gain or loss in turns keeps the tires square in turns as you well know. However, I've seen several pictures from auto x and open track where the outside tire is leaning over in pos camber.
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I agree.....almost.....no, every NASCAR short tracker / road racer has the fronts cambered out.....it is a racing set-up.
 
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I tell all that ask that I see NO improvement from torsion bar to the coil spring.....The handling improvement comes from changes outlined earlier and by all means can be accomplished with the factory components....

except you will NOT have

30 lb weight reduction (not counting brake package, can be done on factory spindles)
the room generated by removing all the factory steering gear and torsion bars
the more precise feel of the modern rack and pinion steering

no idea either how some can claim a 120lb weight savings going to a coil over conversion.....the whole (manual steer) factory package only weighs 118lbs

it is what it is....
 
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dukeboy_318 said:
Let's do it. Putnam County road race park is near Indianapolis Motor Speedway and Indianapolis Raceway park, which happens to be a stop along the power tour next June. They rent the track out for a decent price per car.
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If they rent the track per car that means the event will be free .... because no one will show up!
 
HemiDenny said:
I tell all that ask that I see NO improvement from torsion bar to the coil spring.....The handling improvement comes from changes outlined earlier and by all means can be accomplished with the factory components....

except you will NOT have

30 lb weight reduction (not counting brake package, can be done on factory spindles)
the room generated by removing all the factory steering gear and torsion bars
the more precise feel of the modern rack and pinion steering

no idea either how some can claim a 120lb weight savings going to a coil over conversion.....the whole (manual steer) factory package only weighs 118lbs

it is what it is....
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Agreed except the steering part. My borgeson kits are pretty precise even compared to a rack.
 
dano said:
Those are bolt on systems to replace the stock stuff. I guess my point was coming from going from torsion bars to a coil over on a a stock suspension.
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That's why people use J braces that are tied to the shock towers--------
GMachineDartGT said:
Agreed except the steering part. My borgeson kits are pretty precise even compared to a rack.
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I am not a road racer, or a front end expert by any ,means.
I agree w/ hemi denny on the above post , there is no way u will lose 120 pounds w/ any front aftermarket set up. The tubular m.f. front I`m running is probably the litest one out there.
Oil pan clearance , header clearance are pretty darn good w/ it. Like I said , I have done a few things to make it stronger, and keep a close eye on it. The car is set up to run hard in a straight line, it doesn`t handle as well as the stock front form S suspension, or for that matter handle very well at all, but I can run an alum. 7 qt. rear sump pan on it. I hate center sump pans. We ran a coupe of diff. big pans on the hemi, finally settled on a full sump tie rod tube alum.pan, it was a pain in the a$$ ! It all depends on what u build ur car for.
I built a j brace set up that ties into the shock tower in 2 places to go along w/ the frame and firewall anchors. I wouldn`t even attempt to run this set up w/o them.
 
I think where they get the 120 pound weight difference is they include the differences wit the power steering box, drum brakes and all the hoses, and linkages for the steering. That power box alone is around 40 pounds where a power rack is maybe 8-10?

But if you're not counting that stuff and only counting the K frames and springs, yeah the weight differences are much less, probably even less than the 30 pounds Denny mentioned depending on which kit.

I'll see if I can find the weights from when I got mine the other year, I weighed everything on a grain scale but I don't recall the exact weights.

Off to find the note book, be back shortly
 
HemiDenny said:
I tell all that ask that I see NO improvement from torsion bar to the coil spring.....The handling improvement comes from changes outlined earlier and by all means can be accomplished with the factory components....

except you will NOT have

30 lb weight reduction (not counting brake package, can be done on factory spindles)
the room generated by removing all the factory steering gear and torsion bars
the more precise feel of the modern rack and pinion steering

no idea either how some can claim a 120lb weight savings going to a coil over conversion.....the whole (manual steer) factory package only weighs 118lbs

it is what it is....
Click to expand...


I've been following this discussion with much interest and can appreciate the pros and Cons that everyone is presenting. Great discussion BTW !! The one thing that keeps coming up to me personally is why , if torsion bar systems are cheaper and as effective as coils are.. why did the Auto manufacturers give up on further developing them for future models? Why does the Demon or Hell Cat not have them? Camaro, Vette Mustang ??, Why did no one develop a rack and pinion steering system to work with torsion bars?
When I was doing my research I could not find any reputable source for this product as I would have probably stayed with the torsion bars, having already invested in upgraded factory T-bars, steering components and K member upgrades.. I did see a few but they proved to be poorly engineered after thoughts and inherently unsafe. I finally decided on RMS (sorry Denny but I did not know about your products at the time) as everything I read and researched on their products was positive. Most of the other suppliers I found unknowledgeable, rude or dis-interested and after seeing their products, I know I made a good choice.
As everyone on here knows , Mopar Action has nothing good to say about RMS but has no back-up to show any failure due to the deficiencies they suggest are inherent in Bill Reilly's design. His product has been around long enough and with customers racking up enough miles that any design flaw would be showing up by now, especially with number of members here who are using it. Not taking anything away from Rick Ehrenberg's engineering analysis as this guy certainly knows what he talks about and is very proficient when it comes to all things Mopar but Ill make my decisions on tangible results, not theories or speculation.
Anyway, that's my 2 cents worth , having gone the upgraded factory route and then switching to a coilover rack and pinion setup. It was an expensive journey , I figure over $10,000 factoring in brake upgrades. My opinion?
Even if rack and pinion was available for torsion bar systems now, I would never go back. I am absolutely satisfied with my new setup.
 
AAndrews said:
I've been following this discussion with much interest and can appreciate the pros and Cons that everyone is presenting. Great discussion BTW !! The one thing that keeps coming up to me personally is why , if torsion bar systems are cheaper and as effective as coils are.. why did the Auto manufacturers give up on further developing them for future models? Why does the Demon or Hell Cat not have them? Camaro, Vette Mustang ??, Why did no one develop a rack and pinion steering system to work with torsion bars?
When I was doing my research I could not find any reputable source for this product as I would have probably stayed with the torsion bars, having already invested in upgraded factory T-bars, steering components and K member upgrades.. I did see a few but they proved to be poorly engineered after thoughts and inherently unsafe. I finally decided on RMS (sorry Denny but I did not know about your products at the time) as everything I read and researched on their products was positive. Most of the other suppliers I found unknowledgeable, rude or dis-interested and after seeing their products, I know I made a good choice.
As everyone on here knows , Mopar Action has nothing good to say about RMS but has no back-up to show any failure due to the deficiencies they suggest are inherent in Bill Reilly's design. His product has been around long enough and with customers racking up enough miles that any design flaw would be showing up by now, especially with number of members here who are using it. Not taking anything away from Rick Ehrenberg's engineering analysis as this guy certainly knows what he talks about and is very proficient when it comes to all things Mopar but Ill make my decisions on tangible results, not theories or speculation.
Anyway, that's my 2 cents worth , having gone the upgraded factory route and then switching to a coilover rack and pinion setup. It was an expensive journey , I figure over $10,000 factoring in brake upgrades. My opinion?
Even if rack and pinion was available for torsion bar systems now, I would never go back. I am absolutely satisfied with my new setup.
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I guess your unaware that multiple manufacturers have built, and continue to build models with torsion bars, and rack and pinion steering?
 
AAndrews said:
I've been following this discussion with much interest and can appreciate the pros and Cons that everyone is presenting. Great discussion BTW !! The one thing that keeps coming up to me personally is why , if torsion bar systems are cheaper and as effective as coils are.. why did the Auto manufacturers give up on further developing them for future models? Why does the Demon or Hell Cat not have them? Camaro, Vette Mustang ??, Why did no one develop a rack and pinion steering system to work with torsion bars?
When I was doing my research I could not find any reputable source for this product as I would have probably stayed with the torsion bars, having already invested in upgraded factory T-bars, steering components and K member upgrades.. I did see a few but they proved to be poorly engineered after thoughts and inherently unsafe. I finally decided on RMS (sorry Denny but I did not know about your products at the time) as everything I read and researched on their products was positive. Most of the other suppliers I found unknowledgeable, rude or dis-interested and after seeing their products, I know I made a good choice.
As everyone on here knows , Mopar Action has nothing good to say about RMS but has no back-up to show any failure due to the deficiencies they suggest are inherent in Bill Reilly's design. His product has been around long enough and with customers racking up enough miles that any design flaw would be showing up by now, especially with number of members here who are using it. Not taking anything away from Rick Ehrenberg's engineering analysis as this guy certainly knows what he talks about and is very proficient when it comes to all things Mopar but Ill make my decisions on tangible results, not theories or speculation.
Anyway, that's my 2 cents worth , having gone the upgraded factory route and then switching to a coilover rack and pinion setup. It was an expensive journey , I figure over $10,000 factoring in brake upgrades. My opinion?
Even if rack and pinion was available for torsion bar systems now, I would never go back. I am absolutely satisfied with my new setup.
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The biggest reason if I had to guess is weight. At least in the cars. Now look at Chevy trucks over the last few years, even Toyota and Nissians, a lot of those models use torsion bar suspensions now.

A rack and pinion can be done with a torsion bar set up, but as for retrofitting into these old mopar muscle cars, it really can't be done right. The steering geometry required to eliminate bump steer and Ackerman issues means the rack has to be placed in a spot that requires moving the engine forward and upwards, thus raising the center of gravity and other issues. Some have tried for straight line cars and had it work OK but most ditch it as even in the straight line, a severe enough Ackerman issue can be dangerous.
 
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