Comp cams xe268h for 318

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Dingle ball hone is a glaze breaker in coarser grits and a finish hone in the finer grits
spring loaded hone is also a glaze breaker
you need an adjustable ridged hone to do much
try the spring flex and see if you get lucky and catch the rough spots
 
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dartfreak75 said:
I'm getting somewhere between. 062-.067.

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Is this reading on the crown of the piston? Tnx

Some random answers to questions as I catch up:

1. This may have been answered, but you won't hone a ridge out of a cylinder.... the hone just won't ride there. You use a ridge reamer. As said, you only take out enough to barely get the ridge out. But if the 318 does not have a ridge in the cylinders, I would definitely try to use that block. The ridge indicates bore wear with all of the taper and out-of-roundness that comes with that.

2. FWIW, the H116CP pistons are made to be stock replacement pistons. You should be OK to put them in there without a rebalance. My data show the stock 360 LA to be 748 grams for piston + pin. I would not re-balance for a low$$, low RPM build. It is not going to fly apart.

3. Cool on the 63 cc's; that is consistent with reports and waht I have been using.

4. Practice a LOT with those bore gauges; I have used the same types for years but it took a long time to get good with them. ANY small angle from straight down the bore will give you large readings. ANY being off the center axis will give small readings.

5. You're going to end up with some bore out-of-roundness and taper. If taper is more than about .003-.004, then the rings will wear out fairly quickly. More than a few thou of our-of-roundness and the cylinder seal will start getting weak. Ring side clearance in the piston grooves will also cause poor seal and rapid ring wear. But this is not a lifetime engine.

6. With your $$ limits, just:
  • pull it apart
  • clean the bores with ATF
  • get out any ridge with a ridge reamer (check the parts stores for loaners)
  • hone it
  • clean it again with ATF over and over
  • clean the ring grooves on the pistons thoroughly (use an old ring broken in half as a tool)
  • put in some new cheap rings
  • look over the bearings
  • get a new timing chain, preferrably with variable keyway on the crank sprocket ($5 from Mancini) so you can advance the cam timing a bit
  • and so on
It likely will not run 100% evenly, but that is what you have for the $$ limits.
 
dartfreak75 said:
I bought the spring type I got a cheap one it came with 3 different grits. They are very soft I thought it was gonna be more like a knife sharpener stone but they are very soft and gritty.
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Cheap stones... can't tel what is going to happen. I would use various grits of scotchbrite....you want to clean all the rust particles out of any ruts pores. Hence the ATF.
 
I would have to see the bores and measure them to see what's really needed. At least with some knowledge, suggestions and measurements you will know if the block absolutely needs bored or you can get by with a low buck hone/glaze break and some new rings. Scratches, gouges, and rust pits usually can't be honed out unless they aren't too deep.
 
dartfreak75 said:
Is the dingle ball hone better for "cleaning" the bores up? I bought the spring type I got a cheap one it came with 3 different grits. They are very soft I thought it was gonna be more like a knife sharpener stone but they are very soft and gritty. How bad is to bad when it comes to a junkyard engine? If I can feel it? Or see it? I have one polished with some scotch brite and it looks dark but feels pretty smooth. I am positive it (yours) will not blow. 318s are super tough it will take it lol. I'm gonna get some molly rings Hopefully that will help it seal a little better.
Iv been looking on Facebook and local listings for cheap 318s hopefully I can find a cheap one with better bores before I start reassembling lol if not I'm gonna slap it together. Just curious can you run a la intake on a later magnum engine?
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I have blown up one 318, I have a piston on the wall of my garage to remind me not to be too stupid.
About any LA 318 is not going to have much better bores than yours.
No a LA intake will not work on a Mag, unless you drill the heads.
The LA intake bolts go in at an angle, and the Mags go straight down.
Cross-winds, a china knock off Eddy air gap has a duel bolt pattern for both mag and la.
 
nm9stheham said:
Is this reading on the crown of the piston? Tnx

Some random answers to questions as I catch up:

1. This may have been answered, but you won't hone a ridge out of a cylinder.... the hone just won't ride there. You use a ridge reamer. As said, you only take out enough to barely get the ridge out. But if the 318 does not have a ridge in the cylinders, I would definitely try to use that block. The ridge indicates bore wear with all of the taper and out-of-roundness that comes with that.

2. FWIW, the H116CP pistons are made to be stock replacement pistons. You should be OK to put them in there without a rebalance. My data show the stock 360 LA to be 748 grams for piston + pin. I would not re-balance for a low$$, low RPM build. It is not going to fly apart.

3. Cool on the 63 cc's; that is consistent with reports and waht I have been using.

4. Practice a LOT with those bore gauges; I have used the same types for years but it took a long time to get good with them. ANY small angle from straight down the bore will give you large readings. ANY being off the center axis will give small readings.

5. You're going to end up with some bore out-of-roundness and taper. If taper is more than about .003-.004, then the rings will wear out fairly quickly. More than a few thou of our-of-roundness and the cylinder seal will start getting weak. Ring side clearance in the piston grooves will also cause poor seal and rapid ring wear. But this is not a lifetime engine.

6. With your $$ limits, just:
  • pull it apart
  • clean the bores with ATF
  • get out any ridge with a ridge reamer (check the parts stores for loaners)
  • hone it
  • clean it again with ATF over and over
  • clean the ring grooves on the pistons thoroughly (use an old ring broken in half as a tool)
  • put in some new cheap rings
  • look over the bearings
  • get a new timing chain, preferrably with variable keyway on the crank sprocket ($5 from Mancini) so you can advance the cam timing a bit
  • and so on
It likely will not run 100% evenly, but that is what you have for the $$
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Starting from the top! The deck height I'm measuring to the top of the piston not down in the crown I'm gonna use a straight edge and some filler gauges to get a more accurate measurement.
I have read and watched videos on the ridge reamer that was for the 360 it has the ridge I have decided to stick with the plan and save the 318 and do the 360 correctly when I save up the money. I is gonna have to be bored no doubt about it. The 318 has no ridge at all. It's just rusted inside my fault !!! I'm gonna clean it out and polish that turd haha!!
Yea I figured the bore gages would be a little tricky and I got super cheap ones so they are probably not gonna be the best but it will keep me in the ballpark. I also needed them for a few other things.
Do you think I should spend the extra money on moly rings or do you think that is pointless at this point? Will moly rings help seal better should I save 20 bucks and just get the cast ones? When I get a change to work on it again I'm gonna start pulling the crank and pistons out and examine all the bearings I'm hoping the crank bearing and or journals aren't rusted also. After I get the block stripped and clean and start scrubbing the bores I will add more photos. I ordered all my brake parts so Hopefully next week I can start sanding and preparing the engine bay for paint and start reassembling the brakes and suspension.
 
I would put cast rings in it.
The crank journals most likely will have no rust on them, unless the engine was under water.
Wear, most likely yes will need a polish or turn.
Do not skimp here, your oil pressure will thank you.
 
sireland67 said:
I would put cast rings in it.
The crank journals most likely will have no rust on them, unless the engine was under water.
Wear, most likely yes will need a polish or turn.
Do not skimp here, your oil pressure will thank you.
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So replace the crank bearing no matter what?
 
Yes, they are most likely wore.
I have only took one LA apart that did not need the crank turned, it was in my dads old power wagon, he used mobile one oil since the first oil change, the engine did not need bearings at 213K.
Any other LA that has been run on Dino oil since new, will have grooves in the crank, and most likely brass showing on the bearings.
 
sireland67 said:
Yes, they are most likely wore.
I have only took one LA apart that did not need the crank turned, it was in my dads old power wagon, he used mobile one oil since the first oil change, the engine did not need bearings at 213K.
Any other LA that has been run on Dino oil since new, will have grooves in the crank, and most likely brass showing on the bearings.
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So I'm assuming when you turn the crank you I have to get oversized bearings to make up for the material removed?
 
sireland67 said:
Yes most common size is .010, .020, .030.
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Hopefully I can dodge that bullet. Honestly I had no intention of disassembling the block I was just gonna port the heads slap a cam and run it but then I started running into issues. If the crank bearing is anything like the rest of the engine I'm sure I will be turning it haha!
 
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In all honesty the rusty bores is my fault chalk it up to a learning experience. I was thinking thinking and I figured it out I know what happened. This engine was in a every day driver it ran good I drove it for a while before pulling the engine and then it sat inside full of oil covered for 7 years. Well when I got it out started cleaning it and stripping it before I started I sprayed it down with degreaser and a pressure washer. I had spark plugs in it to make sure no water got it the bores but I forgot about the intake I better water went down in the intake then after a cleaned it I pulled everything off intake timing cover / chain cam every thing but the heads. If I will have pulled the heads the same day I could have seen it and dried it. That explains why it's only a couple cylinders that are rusted. The ones the valves was open on when I sprayed then I pulled the cam and they all closed and it couldn't dry it was just stuck in there. That is why it looks like new rust. If you look you can still see moisture in the bores.
 
I'm on the fence for the moly top rings... for just $20, I would do it as it will just be one more help in getting the bores to seal up quickly. But, of there is a lot of out-of-round or taper, it won't make any difference, IMHO. The lack of ring ridge is a good sign for bore and piston wear so that is positive. (FWIW, those few engines i did not re-bore smoothed out when revved but suffered at low-mid RPM's with uneven running. But some of the out-of-roundness and taper were very bad... like .006-.010" taper in a couple of bores! Let's hope your 318 block is not in that neighborhood of wear....with no ridge, I suspect it's not anything like that bad.)

As for bore honing, be aware that good ring seating takes a certain finish hone grit. Here is Hastings' info on that: Cylinder Bore Refinishing

I agree on the bearings. Even the few times I did not bore engines, I put in new bearings.

If you are going that far, I would also consider a new oil pump. If not, then at least take off the cover and measure the clearances inside and look at how bad the scoring of the surfaces and gouges in the rotor edges are. I always put a new pump into anything anymore.

And OK on the height measurements being to the highest point on the pistons, which I assume is the flat area. That number is working out to pretty much standard for an LA318. At least your heads are smaller which is a significant help to SCR and DCR. A TON better than putting unmilled open chamber 360 heads on it LOL.

I am still favoring the 256 range of cam for that engine after looking at DCR at your altitude (2200' assumed), for general driving around on the street. You barely eke out a 7:1 DCR with the 256 cam, with the .028" head gaskets and no milling and with the cam ICL installed at 104 or 102 degrees; that is just a tad above a stock 318 at sea level. The extra cam lift is going to help significantly once it gets going.
 
nm9stheham said:
I'm on the fence for the moly top rings... for just $20, I would do it as it will just be one more help in getting the bores to seal up quickly. But, of there is a lot of out-of-round or taper, it won't make any difference, IMHO. The lack of ring ridge is a good sign for bore and piston wear so that is positive. (FWIW, those few engines i did not re-bore smoothed out when revved but suffered at low-mid RPM's with uneven running. But some of the out-of-roundness and taper were very bad... like .006-.010" taper in a couple of bores! Let's hope your 318 block is not in that neighborhood of wear....with no ridge, I suspect it's not anything like that bad.)

As for bore honing, be aware that good ring seating takes a certain finish hone grit. Here is Hastings' info on that: Cylinder Bore Refinishing

I agree on the bearings. Even the few times I did not bore engines, I put in new bearings.

If you are going that far, I would also consider a new oil pump. If not, then at least take off the cover and measure the clearances inside and look at how bad the scoring of the surfaces and gouges in the rotor edges are. I always put a new pump into anything anymore.

And OK on the height measurements being to the highest point on the pistons, which I assume is the flat area. That number is working out to pretty much standard for an LA318. At least your heads are smaller which is a significant help to SCR and DCR. A TON better than putting unmilled open chamber 360 heads on it LOL.

I am still favoring the 256 range of cam for that engine after looking at DCR at your altitude (2200' assumed), for general driving around on the street. You barely eke out a 7:1 DCR with the 256 cam, with the .028" head gaskets and no milling and with the cam ICL installed at 104 or 102 degrees; that is just a tad above a stock 318 at sea level. The extra cam lift is going to help significantly once it gets going.
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Good info thank you!!! Yea I'm hoping the bores are not to far out of round and the rust will clean up. I'm so mad at myself for letting that happen I know now tho you live and you learn I guess haha. As far as the bearings go I may as well they are cheap insurance. I gotta do cam bearings anyway may as well replace them all. Speaking of cam bearings I have a question the cam bearings i have i looked the part number up and it says 67-79 la engines did something in the la cam bearing change after 79? Maybe an extra oil hole or something? Those bearings where leftovers from the 67 318 I put together I bought them and didnt use them. Will they not work for a 86?
The oil pump I had planned on replacing anyways so no biggie there.
 
Don’t forget the oil pickup also, mellings sells them for about $15.
Not worth cleaning the old one.
 
dartfreak75 said:
Speaking of cam bearings I have a question the cam bearings i have i looked the part number up and it says 67-79 la engines did something in the la cam bearing change after 79? Maybe an extra oil hole or something? Those bearings where leftovers from the 67 318 I put together I bought them and didnt use them. Will they not work for a 86?
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I don't really know but perhaps it had something to do with the change on the cam snout around that time. Become aware of that difference too when it comes time for the cam.
 
Not sure about the cam snout, because I used a LA roller cam in my Mag with no issues.
 
Yes.... others can explain all that better than me. I just mentioned it so DF75 would be aware and would research that matter.
 
sireland67 said:
Don’t forget the oil pickup also, mellings sells them for about $15.
Not worth cleaning the old one.
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Yea I have to replace that anyway mine is /was a truck pan so it has a different pickup i got the melling one from summit for 17 bucks.
nm9stheham said:
I don't really know but perhaps it had something to do with the change on the cam snout around that time. Become aware of that difference too when it comes time for the cam.
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Yea idk either. I will pull out the old ones and see of they match if they dont I will just order new ones. I'm guessing they have another hole or something cause mine has two other bearings iv seen only has one!?! Idk I will find out when I start tearing into it more.
 
2 holes are in #2 and #4 cam bearings for the oil to flow through the cam journals on those positions, on its way to the heads. Yes, it is all pretty obvious. The later ones would have that also for an LA block.

Look at the cam's journals on #2 and #4; you will see the 2 holes in those 2 journals for the internal passage through those cam journals. That forms an 'oiling interruptor' that allows the oil to flow to the heads only about 5-10% of the time, when the holes line up with the mating holes in the block and cam bearings.

When you install the #2 and #4 cam bearings, check the block to make sure those cam 2 bearings' holes line up with the holes in the block; #2 should have the 2nd hole to the driver's side passage (to that side's head) and #4's 2nd hole will be on the passenger side.
 
On a sidenote, if the ring-grooves spec out ok, and the pistons are reuseable, then you can get those nice bores machine-honed straight, taking out say;a thou to a thou and a half. Yes the skirt clearance will be a lil loose, perhaps noticeable when cold. But you can minimize that with running a lil hotter coolant. And IMO, straight round non-tapered bores are more important than a lil noise on start-up.
With the bores now fixed, I would run file-fit Plasma-Moly second ring kits. You may Leakdown the engine afterwards and find almost zero leakage. And that spells performance. I have done this several times; the caveat being pistons with decent ring grooves.
Ring gaps vary by a factor of 3.1416 for each .001 of bore taper. So if the bottom is 3.910 and the top is 3.911, The gap will grow from say .035 to .038 and change . And when it gets to the top, your 135psi may be just 130; a 4% pressure loss. That is bad. In the meantime, the expansion and contraction of the ring is constantly wearing the piston groove, and the pressure loss into the crankcase is overpowering the PCV system, and polluting the engine oil with fuel and carbon.
You need to combat the skirt clearance to keep the piston running straight up and down in the bores to keep the rings in full contact with the walls. To do that, I increased my minimum running temperature, little by little until I hit 205*F . With almost immeasureable Leakdown, I stopped testing. That was 2004. That engine has accumulated more than 60,000 mile since. Yeah, on cold summer mornings, the pistons do rattle for a minute or two.
Oh yeah, with the new higher minimum running temp your cooling system has to be up to the task of keeping it there.
 
AJ/FormS said:
On a sidenote, if the ring-grooves spec out ok, and the pistons are reuseable, then you can get those nice bores machine-honed straight, taking out say;a thou to a thou and a half. Yes the skirt clearance will be a lil loose, perhaps noticeable when cold. But you can minimize that with running a lil hotter coolant.
With the bores now fixed,
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How is the cylinder "FIXED" with a honing?

The only way to "FIX" the cylinder is to re machine it. A honing is not fixing or machining.
 
AJ/FormS said:
On a sidenote, if the ring-grooves spec out ok, and the pistons are reuseable, then you can get those nice bores machine-honed straight, taking out say;a thou to a thou and a half. Yes the skirt clearance will be a lil loose, perhaps noticeable when cold. But you can minimize that with running a lil hotter coolant. And IMO, straight round non-tapered bores are more important than a lil noise on start-up.
With the bores now fixed, I would run file-fit Plasma-Moly second ring kits. You may Leakdown the engine afterwards and find almost zero leakage. And that spells performance. I have done this several times; the caveat being pistons with decent ring grooves.
Ring gaps vary by a factor of 3.1416 for each .001 of bore taper. So if the bottom is 3.910 and the top is 3.911, The gap will grow from say .035 to .038 and change . And when it gets to the top, your 135psi may be just 130; a 4% pressure loss. That is bad. In the meantime, the expansion and contraction of the ring is constantly wearing the piston groove, and the pressure loss into the crankcase is overpowering the PCV system, and polluting the engine oil with fuel and carbon.
You need to combat the skirt clearance to keep the piston running straight up and down in the bores to keep the rings in full contact with the walls. To do that, I increased my minimum running temperature, little by little until I hit 205*F . With almost immeasureable Leakdown, I stopped testing. That was 2004. That engine has accumulated more than 60,000 mile since. Yeah, on cold summer mornings, the pistons do rattle for a minute or two.
Oh yeah, with the new higher minimum running temp your cooling system has to be up to the task of keeping it there.
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This engine isnt even getting used anymore (well not yet anyways lol)
Im going with the a 360 instead and its getting machined. Bored .030 and honed. Should be taking it soon.
 
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