Counterfeit Cars on FABO!!!

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Man, I go to Spring Fling and this thread turns into I don't know what. I'm really confused now, also. I'm really beginning to see a very fuzzy line between what is called a "rebody" and a restoration. I'm also seeing something else that kinda is weirding me out. I have seen some really amazing work being done on cars here and in person. I have seen cars brought back from the other side of the grave. Now I am hearing that these cars are not worthy of being revelled in their original form. (Example: The Hemicuda' was found in a barn and the restored to it's original form, but, the only parts of the body worth saving were the cowl, floorpan and header panel. The original motor, trans and rear were rebuilt, the front suspension restored, and all were reinstalled) Some of you folks are saying this isn't a Hemicuda' anymore? Why not just swap the VIN over and put all of your good parts on it? You are only gonna get crapped on by the peers in your hobby anyway. At least this way you could drive the car you always dreamed of having years earlier and thousands of dollars cheaper. I'll remember this thread the next time I see a burned a bowed picture of a Superbird and all of the folks that chip in that the car should be saved and restored.

Oh and someone mentioned a Camaro that got built on TV? If it's the one I had a hand in, we didn't take the title from the original car we started with. The Dynacorn bodied car got titled in AZ as a specialty construction. The original car is being built for a customer and will have it's VIN tag and title intact. Other than some inner structure, half the cowl, the A pillars and one quarter panel, most of it will be replacement metal. It will still be a Camaro. (Not like that is saying much).
 
So to the guy that pulls home a rust bucket... Start replacing panels with donar car panels. Even after all his effort and blood and sweet is his car still not a 340 car because the panels came from a /6? Assuming everything around the VIN is replaced how far does one have to go to keep it numbers matching? Considering the bodies are the bodies are just about the same regardless of engine and drive train package.
 
the original v.i.n. rivets fell-off of my vintage Levis ( 1986 model year ) , so by replacing the tags with replacement rivets , are my pants a fraud ?

RE : Daycron ( or whatever ) bodies :
In good ole Cali , the car would be considered a , say , 2011 model , and would have to meet 2011 standards in-so-far-as emissions junk and safety poo-poo .
That's "The Golden (Showers) State" for ya !

The "George Washington's Axe" debate is an old one , originally brought-to-light when Boyd "Billit" Coddington was selling his 350-powered smoothies out of K-Mart vending machines .

Like I've said before -- and believe me , I'm no beard-wearing expert -- Chryslers are pretty difficult to forge .
Their dash v.i.n.'s are easy to decode ( car line , price class , body style , engine , model year , plant , sequence number ) , and those whom are reasonably astute , can ascertain a fake v.i.n. pretty easily ; to wit :
BS27R0E******
See anything wrong about this one ?
Lemme show ya :
Los Angeles didn't build 426 Hemi's , not did that plant make convertibles .
Mis-struck plant code ?
Possibly ...

The fender tag is not a legally-recognised form-of-identification . Thank God for their presence ; but , no state is going to recognise it as concrete evidence .

At this year's Spring Fling , there was a very nice Hemi Dart ( it was red ) .
A replica of a '68 LO23M8 .
It's v.i.n. ?

LH23B9E : a '69 Swinger with a 225 from L.A.


Its owner(s) / builder(s) didn't try to pass it off as an LO23M8 ; but , they did a damned good job of making it look like one , right down to the heater-delete plate on the dash and the "270" model's door panels .
Tell ya what : it was a sweet *** ride at a fraction of what a legit '68 Hurst-Hemi would cost , and it looked damned good .
 
LH23H2R said:
the original v.i.n. rivets fell-off of my vintage Levis ( 1986 model year ) , so by replacing the tags with replacement rivets , are my pants a fraud ?

RE : Daycron ( or whatever ) bodies :
In good ole Cali , the car would be considered a , say , 2011 model , and would have to meet 2011 standards in-so-far-as emissions junk and safety poo-poo .
That's "The Golden (Showers) State" for ya !

The "George Washington's Axe" debate is an old one , originally brought-to-light when Boyd "Billit" Coddington was selling his 350-powered smoothies out of K-Mart vending machines .

Like I've said before -- and believe me , I'm no beard-wearing expert -- Chryslers are pretty difficult to forge .
Their dash v.i.n.'s are easy to decode ( car line , price class , body style , engine , model year , plant , sequence number ) , and those whom are reasonably astute , can ascertain a fake v.i.n. pretty easily ; to wit :
BS27R0E******
See anything wrong about this one ?
Lemme show ya :
Los Angeles didn't build 426 Hemi's , not did that plant make convertibles .
Mis-struck plant code ?
Possibly ...

The fender tag is not a legally-recognised form-of-identification . Thank God for their presence ; but , no state is going to recognise it as concrete evidence .

At this year's Spring Fling , there was a very nice Hemi Dart ( it was red ) .
A replica of a '68 LO23M8 .
It's v.i.n. ?

LH23B9E : a '69 Swinger with a 225 from L.A.


Its owner(s) / builder(s) didn't try to pass it off as an LO23M8 ; but , they did a damned good job of making it look like one , right down to the heater-delete plate on the dash and the "270" model's door panels .
Tell ya what : it was a sweet *** ride at a fraction of what a legit '68 Hurst-Hemi would cost , and it looked damned good .
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That car was sweet. Actually heard some tard being real indignant about the price.
 
well let me get this right i have a 66 cuda v8 commando 4 speed parts car if and im saying if i had a title for it and i dont if i was it put the vin plate on my 65 cuda 6 banger car and change the v8 and 4 speed to it and tell peps that what it is and selll it as so i go to jail but if i change all but the vin and tell them it was a 6 banger car then im ok i dont know the laws
 
Oldmanmopar said:
1971 340 auto Duster. last driven 1974, hit in back and shoved into another car, purchaced for repair. Parts needed, front rails bent from impact. Rear quarters and tailight section bent and rotted over the years from the trunk not sealed. interior floors are solid and it was changed to 4 speed when new, this is what could be seen at purchace, paid $5000 for car runs and drives perfect, but needs alot of work. Do I crush the car or attempt the repair? Decided to repair it because it was a ev2 with ev2 interior. So first the front unibody , frames and fender wells were replaced with a 68 dart front clip didn't save the rad. suport numbers ,didn't care. replaced quarter and extentions using a dodge demon /6, roof skin from a 74 duster with the half vinyl trim holes were welded . found the inner frame on the roof was different had to reuse the 71 demon roof frame for the correct headliner to fit . While the dash and windshield was out I replaced the rotted cowl getting it from a 76 dart sport. Once I started this project there was no turning back, Like other restos I have seen pictured and commended on this site I pushed on ! The title vin and data I have for this car is the 71 340 Duster. The only part of this body that came down the assembly line with this car is the floor pan an the firewall. This work was done one section at a time as other super heros on this site have done, and pictured it and like I stated they were commended on their work. But I did it before AMD made anything for these cars. Was this a crime to under go such a task to rebuild this car. and would it be a crime to keep the vin with the original car being restored. I own this car and worked on it for several years before my accident. It now sits here unfinished but all the sheet metal is done. I have the title to all of the parts cars. Maybe because some of you only want to see the survivors shown, it should be crushed because its not the original sheet metal and spot welds. Some of you idiots on here need to get a life and remember there are guys that like fixing things that others say can not be done. I've included a picture that shows the unfinished Duster sitting next to one of my others. I also have a 71 demon 340 4spd rust free hit hard in the side that will be repaired . There is those of us who can and those of us who wish they could. Remember that photo of the A-body where it stated Fix -em don't crush-em. Am I that old. What happened to the mopar crowd are we all just on a ego trip and want to be the only one in the crowd rolling in with a cool ride. Let the young guns build their dreams what is left for the next generation. Barrett Jackson?
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I am totally with you Oldmanmopar. The explosion of the popularity of this hobby, the increased never dreamed of values, forcing the entry of crooks has changed the playing field.

In the early 80s, I bought a 68 340s, 4spd fastback out of a salvage yard. It had been there for quite some time, and had a great body. Short block was totally locked up from sitting open for years.Missing front spindles, and top half of motor.

Salvage had already turned in the title to the state, so it was gone. I didn't want a state issued vin, as the hobby was starting to get popular and I was going to a few shows. No intention of ever selling the car.

So we consulted a lawyer, and we sued the State, saying we had better title to the car than anyone else. We also named every one else that we could find that had anything to do with the car. It took about two years, but the state finally re-issued the title.

I got in a pinch a few years later and had to sell the car. My point is, as this there are a lot of circumstances around these 40+ year old cars, that don't fall into the black and white area, that a lot of these newcomers don't understand. Not everyone is a crook.
 
So let me get this straight.... We have had major geological disruptions to our earth in the last month, our economy is in a state of dire need, our president is single handedly trying to make us turn into a 3 world country, there is talk about banning the American Flag in schools, my yard guy didn't put enough mulch around my trees, and I have sunburn from the bright Hawaiian sun. The point is WHO REALLY GIVES A CRAP about what someone is doing to their cars? If I want to take my 68 Dart and put a corvette front on it and sell it, who's responsibility is it to find out what the car really is? It's the buyers responsibility period.... you really think some jerk off Ebayer is going to tell you the truth? Get a clue fellas.. This isn't Mr. Rogers neighbor hood. This is the world we live in today.

Jason
 
greenhornet said:
CarFax is pretty much useless, if a car is wrecked or totaled here in NC it will only show up on CarFax if it's turned into the insurance company, if the owner doesn't turn it in and fixes the car their self no records will ever show up.. Same for a salvage title, if insurance isn't used the car keeps a clean title..
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The Duster mentioned here was hit in Virginia in 1974 It has 34000 miles on it. It sat under a tree in a field since then until I bought it on ebay in 2005. It came with the title from the original owner who bought it new He changed it to 4 spd. To drag race the car It never made a pass it was hit at the track in the staging lane . The guy launched the car behind him and hit it high never touched the bumper. I bought it to fix it. so I did. Did they have car fax in 74. I know they had car tax , but I don't even remember computors then.Envolved with strickly mopars since I was old enough to walk I worked at a chrysler dealers body shop to help my dad. I have a very large list of cars that I have purchace , stripped some fixed some and sold alot of repairables. I have helped switched out dashes to save the insurance money on wrecked cars so they could save on the labor at that shop. One I remember to this day was a 1968 R/T. It was a roll over with under 100 miles. every panel was smashed and no glass except the winshield but the car drove perfect. The insurance dropped off a theft recovered 68 500 Same color. Yes the guy got a 500 back w/o the trim. All we did was a motor swap and repaint . Cluster and vin. He didn't even get his trans or rear diff. I found this car years later and bought it for parts. small world. That was one of many that we did like that. The Ins. co. could approve what ever they wanted in those days. The main reason for 'employees only' on shop doors back then was because it was required by the ins. co.. Wonder why? We did alot of performance cars because they were the most wrecked. also alot a B-bodies burned by front end shops doing alignments and the wrench would get stuck against the alternator post. Here are pics I have of the 500 cloned to an R/T by the ins.in 68 I bought several years later for parts. You never know what your old mopar really was when it was new.If it shows color change it was probably a wreck repaired. So you may reap what you sew.
 
I would like to thank th OP for this thread it has been a real eye opener for me and will remain in my subscriptions forever as a reference . "The world we live in" is created by us through our actions/inactions and now this thread has shown us who really is a stand up guy and who ain't
 
Oldmanmopar said:
The Duster mentioned here was hit in Virginia in 1974 It has 34000 miles on it. It sat under a tree in a field since then until I bought it on ebay in 2005. It came with the title from the original owner who bought it new He changed it to 4 spd. To drag race the car It never made a pass it was hit at the track in the staging lane . The guy launched the car behind him and hit it high never touched the bumper. I bought it to fix it. so I did. Did they have car fax in 74. I know they had car tax , but I don't even remember computors then.Envolved with strickly mopars since I was old enough to walk I worked at a chrysler dealers body shop to help my dad. I have a very large list of cars that I have purchace , stripped some fixed some and sold alot of repairables. I have helped switched out dashes to save the insurance money on wrecked cars so they could save on the labor at that shop. One I remember to this day was a 1968 R/T. It was a roll over with under 100 miles. every panel was smashed and no glass except the winshield but the car drove perfect. The insurance dropped off a theft recovered 68 500 Same color. Yes the guy got a 500 back w/o the trim. All we did was a motor swap and repaint . Cluster and vin. He didn't even get his trans or rear diff. I found this car years later and bought it for parts. small world. That was one of many that we did like that. The Ins. co. could approve what ever they wanted in those days. The main reason for 'employees only' on shop doors back then was because it was required by the ins. co.. Wonder why? We did alot of performance cars because they were the most wrecked. also alot a B-bodies burned by front end shops doing alignments and the wrench would get stuck against the alternator post. Here are pics I have of the 500 cloned to an R/T by the ins.in 68 I bought several years later for parts. You never know what your old mopar really was when it was new.If it shows color change it was probably a wreck repaired. So you may reap what you sew.
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Most all of the mopars down here in the NC mountains were ragged out by the early 80's, so add 30 more years to that and about all thats left are hull's, if you can even find them.. There still a few nice ones around but there highly prized and well taken care of....
 
I have read through this thread with a lot of interest. Has anyone watched this season of Chop,Cut,Rebuild? Seems they found a brochure car in Tenn a 69 Dodge Charger Hemi Car not a R/T supposedly and Had Galen Govier to authenticate it. When they picked up the car it had a 440 which they say was dropped in after the Hemi and was a major rust bucket. Took it to AMD in GA where they replaced everything but a few places of the cowl area. Now they also replaced the vin numbers on the rad support to match the vin they took off the cowl. Do I have that wrong and isn't that fall into the lines of being illegal?
 
old tired rebel said:
I have read through this thread with a lot of interest. Has anyone watched this season of Chop,Cut,Rebuild? Seems they found a brochure car in Tenn a 69 Dodge Charger Hemi Car not a R/T supposedly and Had Galen Govier to authenticate it. When they picked up the car it had a 440 which they say was dropped in after the Hemi and was a major rust bucket. Took it to AMD in GA where they replaced everything but a few places of the cowl area. Now they also replaced the vin numbers on the rad support to match the vin they took off the cowl. Do I have that wrong and isn't that fall into the lines of being illegal?
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The black suburbans are already pulling up to that studio to bust them.
 
old tired rebel said:
I have read through this thread with a lot of interest. Has anyone watched this season of Chop,Cut,Rebuild? Seems they found a brochure car in Tenn a 69 Dodge Charger Hemi Car not a R/T supposedly and Had Galen Govier to authenticate it. When they picked up the car it had a 440 which they say was dropped in after the Hemi and was a major rust bucket. Took it to AMD in GA where they replaced everything but a few places of the cowl area. Now they also replaced the vin numbers on the rad support to match the vin they took off the cowl. Do I have that wrong and isn't that fall into the lines of being illegal?
Click to expand...

I have never seen the show all I have is crappy cable... Everone has their own opinion on this topic.. I'll never change or monkey f##k with a VIN, but if I find a car I want to build it's none of no ones business how much sheet metal I swap to rebuild the car, I don't build a car to re-sale I just build what I like, and if I do decide to sell it I'll tell the buyer everything I've done to it..
 
Demon 408: For the most part I agree with your definitions. I would like to make two comments. Please keep in mind that VIN numbers thru 1965, those with ten digits do not define the engine size or any other specifics about the car. This does not apply to cars built with a 13 digit VIN, where we know the 5th digit denotes the engine size and the first four the model and other particulars about the car. My second comment is about "numbers matching" cars. Mopars built thru 1965 had no serial numbers on any of the major components, therefore there is no such thing as a "numbers matching" car during those years. If I'm wrong about either of these points I would certainly appreciate being educated. Here on FABO I have learned much and I am always open to learning more.
 
dynodonn said:
Mopars built thru 1965 had no serial numbers on any of the major components, therefore there is no such thing as a "numbers matching" car during those years.
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More like 67 I believe, but don't tell some folks that. :D
 
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