did some welding now no start condition.

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slowdown

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I just fineshed welding in sub frame connectors and took my car for a drive to see if there was any differance. Before welding I did disconnect the negative battery cable. The car ran great before but when I started it up it seemed to run rougher then normal and took a little longer to warm up as I drove off I noticed a slight hesitation just as I started to give it gas, and as I drove it, it got a little worse. I thought maybe it was starting to foul plugs again but the set I had in it have been in since the beginning of summer and I have'nt had any fouling problems since.
Well I decided to stop at the video store on the way home, when I came out of the store it started right up but then sputtered and died. It did this a couple of times and then would turn over but no fire. I checked gas tank but there was half a tank. And I could hear the fuel pump and I could see gas in the filter at the carb and gas squirted when i pulled back the throttle. So the first thing I did was I went to autozone picked up a set of plugs and changed them in the video parking lot. It turned over but acted like there was no fire at all just turned over. I let it sit a couple of minutes and it was hard to start but it did fire and then died right away. When it did start it would try to die unless I was giving it gas then it would eventually die anyway. Then no fire again, just the engine cranking but acted like there is no spark.???? Do you think I may have damaged my orange dist box when I was welding? I've heard of these boxes going bad but have'nt had any experience with them, this is the mp electronic dist and orange box.
When I was welding there was one time when I pulled the welder a little closer and in doing so I messed up my ground and my weld sputtered a bit before I realized my ground was'nt making a good connection. Any thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated, Thanks..
 
Have you checked your battery connection? Did you clean it before hooking the ground back up? I did some work on my pickup a couple weeks ago and only did a half-*** job of hooking it back up and it acted this same way. When I checked it, it was so loose I could take it right off.
C
 
That darned EMP will get you every time. That's why I always keep a points distributor around. And also why I won't weld on a car until all the electronics are out of it. Learned that lesson when an airbag controller decided to go poof while I was welding up a crack in a bumper...
 
clhyer said:
Have you checked your battery connection? Did you clean it before hooking the ground back up? I did some work on my pickup a couple weeks ago and only did a half-*** job of hooking it back up and it acted this same way. When I checked it, it was so loose I could take it right off.C
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Yeah, I made sure it was a good connection. It turned over real good just, no fire on a on off basis.
 
grumpuscreature said:
That darned EMP will get you every time. That's why I always keep a points distributor around. And also why I won't weld on a car until all the electronics are out of it. Learned that lesson when an airbag controller decided to go poof while I was welding up a crack in a bumper...
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Do u think that's it? I was leaning that way, as the car would start but not run for very long and not run well when it was running. Kinda like it was missing a bit then die.
 
ive done buttloads of welding on my mopars only removing the positive battery cable and not once have I ever had it effect the electronics of my cars.
 
73AbodEE said:
ive done buttloads of welding on my mopars only removing the positive battery cable and not once have I ever had it effect the electronics of my cars.
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Maybe it was my unlucky day an it went out coincidently after I did some welding and I am just linking it to the welding. I don't know.. I am not even sure if that's the problem for sure at this point. I've never had a old car with electronic distributor that had one of those boxes go out so I really don't know how it would act if it did go out.
With it starting randomly and not running real well or not wanting to stay running I am kinda leaning towards the orange box. But really not sure. The car ran fine before I did the work. Tomorrow I will crawl under the car and see if there's anything I may have messed up while I was under the car. I was just a little anxious to take it out and drive it when I got done welding in the sub frames to see what kind of changes it made to the ride. I'm hoping it's just something simple that I am just over looking. Thank You..
 
Try changing out the ballast first. That's cheap and those things will go bad if you sneeze on them wrong. That only leaves the ECM and the coil...
 
1........It would be pretty damn handy to actually know what you are working on, or did I miss that?

2.......Have you actually checked spark at the coil wire, how do you know it's spark and not fuel?

3......Have you made any voltage checks, IE what exactly have you actually checked

A......Make absolutely certain the ECU is grounded MUST BE

B.....Wiggle the ballast connectors, and the ECU and distributor connector. Work them in / out to "feel" for tightness and to scrub them clean.

C.....Make some voltage checks. Turn the key to "run" and with the meter grounded to the engine, probe the ballast to find the highest reading. There should be two with high readings if a 4 pin ballast, one of the 2 if a 2 pin. Should be "same as battery" voltage.

D....Check coil NEG terminal voltage. Should be quite low, perhaps 1/2 volt

E....Check coil POS terminal. Should be substantially below battery, perhaps 5--10 volts

F...Remove the distributor connector and get the connector end going to the firewall. Try grounding first one, then the other pickup wire. One of them should give you one "snap" spark out of the coil wire.

Dearly hope you did not clamp the welder ground onto the engine block.

G....Remove the cap, inspect the inside of the distributor, for carbon, grease, water, spark damage. Inspect the rotor.

Inspect the reluctor / pickup for strike damage, rust, debri. If you can get a .008" brass feeler and check the reluctor gap. "Feel" the shaft for side play and wear
 
67Dart273 said:
1........It would be pretty damn handy to actually know what you are working on, or did I miss that?2.......Have you actually checked spark at the coil wire, how do you know it's spark and not fuel?3......Have you made any voltage checks, IE what exactly have you actually checkedA......Make absolutely certain the ECU is grounded MUST BEB.....Wiggle the ballast connectors, and the ECU and distributor connector. Work them in / out to "feel" for tightness and to scrub them clean.C.....Make some voltage checks. Turn the key to "run" and with the meter grounded to the engine, probe the ballast to find the highest reading. There should be two with high readings if a 4 pin ballast, one of the 2 if a 2 pin. Should be "same as battery" voltage.D....Check coil NEG terminal voltage. Should be quite low, perhaps 1/2 voltE....Check coil POS terminal. Should be substantially below battery, perhaps 5--10 voltsF...Remove the distributor connector and get the connector end going to the firewall. Try grounding first one, then the other pickup wire. One of them should give you one "snap" spark out of the coil wire.Dearly hope you did not clamp the welder ground onto the engine block.G....Remove the cap, inspect the inside of the distributor, for carbon, grease, water, spark damage. Inspect the rotor.Inspect the reluctor / pickup for strike damage, rust, debri. If you can get a .008" brass feeler and check the reluctor gap. "Feel" the shaft for side play and wear
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Sorry I did'nt say what I was working on. It's a 68 dart with a stroker small block in it. Beings how it would fire off and run I assumed it was getting spark and fuel. But with it sputtering kinda like a miss I was thinking electrical. Thats why I was leaning towards the orange box. No I have'nt really got down and checked things out just yet, as I just towed it home and stuck it in the garage last night and did'nt get into it. I figured I would do some detective work todays and hopefully find whats wrong. No i did'nt clamp ground to engine block I clamped it to what I was welding on. Thanks for your insight. I will be checking everything you mentioned if I don't get lucky and find it right away.
 
slowdown said:
Sorry I did'nt say what I was working on. It's a 68 dart with a stroker small block in it. Beings how it would fire off and run I assumed it was getting spark and fuel. But with it sputtering kinda like a miss I was thinking electrical. Thats why I was leaning towards the orange box. No I have'nt really got down and checked things out just yet, as I just towed it home and stuck it in the garage last night and did'nt get into it. I figured I would do some detective work todays and hopefully find whats wrong. No i did'nt clamp ground to engine block I clamped it to what I was welding on. Thanks for your insight. I will be checking everything you mentioned if I don't get lucky and find it right away.
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As usual 67Dart273/Del is on the right track when giving accurate methods of locating the problem in the electrical area of a vehicle.
 
I don't believe the welding has anything to do with it. Muffler shops weld on cars and NEVER even disconnect the battery.

You have a sperratic issue that is un related. I would look at the distributor as the culprit. I didn't catch which one you have but the MSD dizzy's are pretty prone for rusting inside. If that's what you have take it apart and clean it. Be sure the cap and rotor are clean as well. Get rid of the carbon build up. I always bend the rotor tang up a bit so it makes a solid connection Inside the cap at the coil pick up as well.
 
Where was the ground clamp ?
Hopefully you moved it front to back when you welded the other subframe

:burnout:
 
Mad Dart said:
Ground is Ground. It don't matter where it was at.
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Sorry no. Put this in your mind

You absent minded clamp the welder ground to the transmission.

Bear in mind that most STOCK cars have a poor (small) ground between the block and body, and the body is what you are welding on

So the "ground path" is

welding clamp..........transmission.......engine block........

.........and whatever it can find to the body

no 10 jumper wire from battery neg to body?

block to firewall bonding straps, small, 1 or 2 ea LOL

automatic, the cooler lines

and so on

NOW picture in your mind WHAT ELSE current might attempt to parallel through...................
 
67Dart273 said:
Sorry no. Put this in your mind

You absent minded clamp the welder ground to the transmission.

Bear in mind that most STOCK cars have a poor (small) ground between the block and body, and the body is what you are welding on

So the "ground path" is

welding clamp..........transmission.......engine block........

.........and whatever it can find to the body

no 10 jumper wire from battery neg to body?

block to firewall bonding straps, small, 1 or 2 ea LOL

automatic, the cooler lines

and so on

NOW picture in your mind WHAT ELSE current might attempt to parallel through...................
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Yep.

In the absence of good grounds, a vehicle will make its own grounds.

Years ago, when my D50 had a Turbo Diesel in it. I had used regular "Gas" version Ground Cables to the Block & Frame and couldn't figure out why the diesel was cranking so slowly. (That was the day I installed 0 and 2 Gauge cables in the truck) I reached under the hood to check the connections at the starter and my arm bumped the Clutch Hydraulic Line (Master to Slave line) and burnt a 1/4" Deep Groove in my arm. The Clutch Hydraulic System was turning into a ground, due to the poor grounds on the truck and had superheated to absurd temperatures in the process.
 
67Dart273 said:
1........It would be pretty damn handy to actually know what you are working on, or did I miss that?2.......Have you actually checked spark at the coil wire, how do you know it's spark and not fuel?3......Have you made any voltage checks, IE what exactly have you actually checkedA......Make absolutely certain the ECU is grounded MUST BEB.....Wiggle the ballast connectors, and the ECU and distributor connector. Work them in / out to "feel" for tightness and to scrub them clean.C.....Make some voltage checks. Turn the key to "run" and with the meter grounded to the engine, probe the ballast to find the highest reading. There should be two with high readings if a 4 pin ballast, one of the 2 if a 2 pin. Should be "same as battery" voltage.D....Check coil NEG terminal voltage. Should be quite low, perhaps 1/2 voltE....Check coil POS terminal. Should be substantially below battery, perhaps 5--10 voltsF...Remove the distributor connector and get the connector end going to the firewall. Try grounding first one, then the other pickup wire. One of them should give you one "snap" spark out of the coil wire.Dearly hope you did not clamp the welder ground onto the engine block.G....Remove the cap, inspect the inside of the distributor, for carbon, grease, water, spark damage. Inspect the rotor.Inspect the reluctor / pickup for strike damage, rust, debri. If you can get a .008" brass feeler and check the reluctor gap. "Feel" the shaft for side play and wear
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Key turned to on position - coil side 1.1 + coil side 4.4 Ballest mounted on driver side fire wall was 4.5 and 9.8 with key turned to on position. 4 prong plug going to orange box was 10.5 on two posts, the battery may be a bit low I had had to turn lights and hazards on when it was being towed. The little silver relay on the drivers side fender I'm not sure what it's called but it's where the battery power is hooked reads 12.1 with key off and 11.7 with key on. I'm not sure what you mean when you said to pull the dist plug apart and ground the fire wall side, do I just need a wire or something and touch the post and then touch it to a ground on the firewall somewhere, and do it to each post and one should get a spark?The distributor is pretty new, I have had it a couple of years but it has'nt got many miles on it I did buy it new. It's the mp electronic ignition. And it all feels tight no wiggles. I am getting gas I can hear my electric pump and it fills my see through fuel filter and I can see gas in my carb through the little level windows. The car ran great before I crawled under it to weld in the frame supports and that's why I was thinking the welding had something to do with it is all. So with these readings I'm not sure where the problem is. Do they all seem about right other then the voltage is a little low? Am I missing something?.. It all seems to be getting power where it's supposed to I think. Other then grounding the distributor plug does it look like it all checks out? I did pull the dist cap it did'nt look like there was anything out of the ordinary I cleaned it up just in case though.
 
Dfr360cuda said:
Thanks 67dart273.
I guess they don't teach that in real estate school

:burnout:
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Lol, WTF would ground their welder to the transmission or their engine block??.... haaaa

When I said what I said I meant to the CHASSIS...... Lol

I have welded up more stuff than most anyone on this site has ever taken on. I have NEVER had any issues at all.....

You guys are way too funny.

Post up some of YOUR work so I can see that you actually do your own stuff. Plenty of mine is on this site for ALL to see.

YOUR original post about moving the ground from FRONT TO REAR....... Well it makes absolutely NO SENSE... and is a Joke at best.
 
Mad Dart said:
Lol, WTF would ground their welder to the transmission or their engine block??.... haaaa

When I said what I said I meant to the CHASSIS...... Lol

I have welded up more stuff than most anyone on this site has ever taken on. I have NEVER had any issues at all.....

You guys are way too funny.

Post up some of YOUR work so I can see that you actually do your own stuff. Plenty of mine is on this site for ALL to see.

YOUR original post about moving the ground from FRONT TO REAR....... Well it makes absolutely NO SENSE... and is a Joke at best.
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And this post contributes what useful information to fixing the OP's problem? Used to be, if you can't help leave it alone and move on. I can remember when this sort of crap never showed it's ugly head on this site. What's happened? I'm getting a clearer picture as to why memike rarely posts anymore. And that's a crying shame...
 
grumpuscreature said:
And this post contributes what useful information to fixing the OP's problem? Used to be, if you can't help leave it alone and move on. I can remember when this sort of crap never showed it's ugly head on this site. What's happened? I'm getting a clearer picture as to why memike rarely posts anymore. And that's a crying shame...
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Lol. Most are just WAY to sensitive to be on an open forum like this I guess.....The information is useful to those that are willing to listen...... If you are working on the chassis it don't matter where you ground the chassis is my point. Grounding the welder to the rear of the chassis & welding on the front of the chassis does not matter. The welder ground does not need to be moved every time you work further away from it. Can you grasp that one?
 
So it seems as though its fixed. I changed the coil and man it fired right up did'nt spit or sputter, I let it warm up and idle for about 10 minutes shut it off came in house, let it cool down and turned it on and off about 5 times to see if the problem showed up so far so good. Now to take it for a drive and hopefully not have to tow it home again Thanks for all your help.
 
slowdown said:
So it seems as though its fixed. I changed the coil and man it fired right up did'nt spit or sputter, I let it warm up and idle for about 10 minutes shut it off came in house, let it cool down and turned it on and off about 5 times to see if the problem showed up so far so good. Now to take it for a drive and hopefully not have to tow it home again Thanks for all your help.
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Glad you got it fixed! I figured it was a fluke and it seem's as if it was. The welding had nothing to do with the problem.
 
Mad Dart said:
Glad you got it fixed! I figured it was a fluke and it seem's as if it was. The welding had nothing to do with the problem.
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Yeah, the coil only had about 200 miles on it though. Maybe I should carry some spare parts. lol.
 
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